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Traffic Congestion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,704 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko

    I can quote the evidence that confirms that large numbers of car journeys are distances that are easily walked or cycled;

    Traffic congestion does go beyond the M50.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Any meaningful infrastructure development is pie in the sky stuff. The only thing that will improve matters is permanent working from home for a substantial segment of the workforce. The government will cop on to that eventually and incentivise it appropriately.

    cheaper to give grants to companies to develop their communications infrastructure than to build an underground or network of flyovers.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,661 ✭✭✭whippet

    That's the point I'm making .. those on the m50 don't have alternatives ... but no excuse for using the car in the city centre the majority of the time

  • Registered Users Posts: 33,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint

    Very simply because we are burdening that cost today in congestion.

    Amusing response though. You seem to think workers are just created from trees .. or maybe grown in a field ?..

  • Registered Users Posts: 27,704 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko

    Not just a city centre issue - fair bit of scope for cycling to cover journeys of two junctions and eBikes for longer journeys there;

    "TII said the typical trip for a regular M50 road user was less than two junctions. Some 44 per cent of M50 trips are less than 20km in distance, while 70 per cent are less than 30km."

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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,704 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko

    So because we've made the mistake in the past of creating car-centric policies that don't work, we should now continue to throw money and resources at the problem, instead of focusing on public transport? Drivers need to start paying for their own storage spaces.

    Amusing that you seem to think workers = motorists?

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,661 ✭✭✭whippet

    Totally missing the point ... the m50 is a ring road ... a typical commute would entail 5-10km along the m50. And the majority of these drivers would have a multiple of that distance before getting to the m50 ... and again very few would be going in to the city. The notion that cycling the m59 route is a valid option is just that .. a notion !

  • Registered Users Posts: 27,704 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko

    And lots of those journeys would have shorter, more direct routes available for cycling, when you don't have to worry about sitting in traffic.

    Yes, there are lots of people on the M50 who don't have a whole lot of other choices today. There's also a bunch of them on the M50 because they've never given serious consideration to any commute method that didn't involve driving around with four empty seats all day wondering where all the road space has gone.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,950 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997

    and/or they make it so the car takes 3 times as long as other means. :)

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,661 ✭✭✭whippet

    Those who have other viable options would be negligible on the m50 .. vast majority are commuting from suburbs to industrial parks ... so unless you have a circular public transport system you are pissing against the wind.

    anyway .. the bones of my point still stand that if we can remove 30% of these commuters out of rush hour through smarter / flexible working most of the woes of congestion will be eliminated

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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint

    I don't think you actually understood any of the points I made. If you wish to review my posts in full. Until then I won't be responding further. Nothing I said was against public transport its totally for it. You're off the wall ...

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,863 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder

    i've often said that a missed opportunity was not providing a cycle lane along the M50, maybe at the top of the embankment. i know several people who at one point had a dublin 15 to parkwest commute, and the cycle trip would not have been particularly enjoyable, but would have been far shorter had a reasonable option to cross the liffey been available.

  • Registered Users Posts: 34 Kav_Piero

    Took the bus for years and then needed to walk for a half an hour afterwards to get into the office, personal experience is the commute got worse year on year.

    • Couldn't rely on the bus being on time in the mornings or it just wouldn't show up (traffic on the incoming journey normally the main cause of delays)
    • Domino effect then led to the bus being packed and stopping to pick up passengers every two seconds (really don't understand why some bus stops need to be so close to one another)
    • People standing at the bus stop doing nothing and then deciding to look for their leap card or count change when they board the bus caused more delays.
    • Cars parking in the bus lane with their hazards on dropping kids to school.
    • Could never time the journey on the way home either, ETA on the screens would just disappear quite often or the bus would be too packed to take any more passengers.

    Got fed up of this process and became part of the problem by driving into work instead, still get stuck in traffic but I have more flexibility with the route and I also know what time I'll get home at in the evenings now. Management (micro) in my job hate people working from home and there is no flexibility with start and finish times - if flexibility was introduced I'd probably use the bus again as I actually enjoyed the walk to the office after the bus journey especially with the earphones in during the summer.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,950 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997

    I think everyone is right.

    Some people don't explore all the options and some people don't really have any options at the moment.

    The routes are always changing. You might find something that works then there's a small change and it becomes unviable.

    I've rotated through driving, cycling and public transport, then rotated back through them all. I've gone multi modal switching between them in the same journey and even on different days.

    The city is both vastly better in terms of transport and also worse with lots of poor design decisions.

  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]

    I think it's a fanciful notion thinking that Dublin doesn't need a Subway system, or that more buses travelling slowly via road and stopping every 2 mins is a viable option in the future, they need to get more people moving underground that's the best solution long term for Dublin City.

    Buses are fine but we need a faster commuting option, faster rail services from the commuter areas with frequent trains every 15 mins until around 10am then again starting at 3 pm. They need to expand the existing rail services and electrify more rail network.

    Build a rail link from Naas to Dublin, then you can have a stop maybe around M50 somewhere to take People via bus to their destinations.

    Plan all future industrial areas to include rail links.

    Bus is ok but it's simply far too slow to be a proper viable alternative to the car, what's the point if you have to wait in wind and rain unsheltered if you're not saving a decent bit of time ? not sitting in traffic isn't a good enough reason to take the bus, there needs to be a proper alternative from the commuter areas and that is not Bus.

    We f1cked up big time building all these residential areas + industrial areas and no rail, no rail from Tallaght is another joke, they have Luas, sure, but it's just awfully slow.

    The real issue is that no Government wants to tackle the issue of public transport, the same political mindset on this Island over and over, they're in for the short haul. The really sad thing is that High speed rail and subway system is not even on the agenda and probably won't be for the next 20 years, 10 years to plan and 30 to complete. They talk about adding more bus services a phatically slow mode of transport in a country chocked with traffic but it's easy because the roads are there and they can clam they fulfilled their promise of adding more buses meanwhile there's no benefit to traffic or People.

  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]

    Employers subsidising parking ? if they have on site parking on their property why should an employee pay for it ? more revenue to the Government for them to p1ss away, you're joking right ? we need to make work more attractive not less by hitting more people with more ridiculous tax just because they need to get into their car to earn money, shouldn't penalise someone who need their cars, that's just mad talk.

    Why not tax the cyclist road tax ? they use the roads/footpaths ? why not make them pay insurance ? why don't they invent new tax system for cyclists to pay to fund cycle lanes ?

  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]

    An underground is more than justifiable even in a small City like Dublin, it would add future capacity to move people so Dublin can be built up using skyscrapers than moving more and more people out of Dublin which is unsustainable + the population is growing as there is no longer mass emigration.

    This 8 story limit in Dublin City should be removed as it's absolutely ridiculous. Dublin is in bad need of development and it looks very run down, time to build up like most modern Cities and for this you will definitely need an underground network. Dublin needs to be modernised in many ways as it's no longer fit for a modern society. "in my opinion"

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring

    Build a rail link from Naas to Dublin, then you can have a stop maybe around M50 somewhere to take People via bus to their destinations

    I always thought this was a no-brainer.

    A series of park and ride around the m50 and train link to Dublin.

    Then they did it. Lovely big one at Dunboyne. Nobody uses it!!!

    Half the carpark is actually rented out to Intel for the construction staff!!

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring

    Why not tax the cyclist road tax ? they use the roads/footpaths ? why not make them pay insurance ? why don't they invent new tax system for cyclists to pay to fund cycle lanes ?

    In a thread about traffic you've managed to bring up a whole load of reasons for people not to cycle.

    Still don't think the traffic realise that the more people who aren't traffic, the less traffic.

    Cycling, walking and public transport should be incentivised so much it should be sickening to use your car. Think about it. If we could reduce cars by 10% we'd save billions on infrastructure.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,950 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997

    That train before lockdown was packed to over capacity. There is no way to fit any more people on those trains unless they put more on and make them bigger. I stopped using it because of the overcrowding. In fact since it got busier they made them shorter.

    Dunno what is like now.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring

    It's packed but from my experience it's packed from closer stations. Clonsilla and Coolmine etc.

    Sounds like the main issue is that the park and ride doesn't get it's own service

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,950 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997

    I assume those getting on at the park and ride don't all get off at clonsilla and mostly all get on in the docklands coming home. So regardless where people get on they'll get to enjoy the experience of a sardine for most of their journey.

    I not back in the office, but if I was I wouldn't fancy being back on that train

  • Registered Users Posts: 389 ✭✭tommybrees

    Buses certainly can be done alot better.

    Iv taken buses and sometimes they stop every 500m, way to many bus stops imo. People have legs, walking an extra 3 minutes could really help streamline the service.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,139 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs

    If people that genuinely had a better option chose to take that better option and left the roads to people that didn't have a better option, then the roads into Dublin would be fine.

    By better options I mean working from home at least part time to take them out of a commute at rush hour, or staggering work times by an hour or 2, taking bus and trains, cycling, walking, car pooling.

    If I was a planner and people looking for more roads, underpasses, roads in the sky I'd be telling them to exercise their options and I bet lots of people have options. Take a few cars (20-30%) off the roads and see the difference, apparently my route to work in Dublin was empty this morning between 8 and 9 o clock, I didn't go to office until now though as usual. I can't be convinced 20 to 30% of people don't have better options and could change their habits without much hassle.

    It's a human behaviour problem, not a planning problem. Blame someone else culture.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,661 ✭✭✭whippet

    "It's a human behaviour problem, not a planning problem. Blame someone else culture."

    100% ... what I am reading over the last 4 pages is how the congestion problem is caused by everyone else and everything else apart from the individual who is contributing to the congestion by sitting in the traffic.

    Covid has given us an opportunity to fundamentally change how we interact with urban centres, commuting and the perceived need for everyone to be at the same place at the same time every day.

    Apart from reducing congestion changing this mindset has far more benefits to society:

    • Reduced consumption of fossil fuels
    • Rejuvenation of commuter towns as people spend more time in their home town
    • Increased time for participating in your local community (volunteering / sports clubs etc) as no commute times
    • Less reliance on early morning and later afternoon after school clubs (for older children)
    • Less sick days (this is a fact !!)
    • Happier & Healthier workforce

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭Miscreant

    That will have been me that mentioned Carlow, Cavan and Portlaoise and your presumption that these people moved to the areas to get a bigger house is just that.... a presumption. The people I know are locals to their areas and could not find suitable work in their localities due to the fact that Dublin has the most opportunities for employment. Couple that with the high cost of buying, building or renting in Dublin, this left them with little choice but to buy local (also to be close to family/where they grew up). While I realise they may not be the majority, they are certainly not the only commuters in this predicament, where continual policies on growth and employment have favoured a Dublin centric model. People in commuter belts have little choice but to get in their cars and drive to Dublin if that is where their employment is. They have not made the choice to "have the rest of society pay the price in terms of increased emissions, particulate matter, congestion and noise pollution" as you so eloquently put it. They have made the choice based on available options to them in terms of employment and cost/quality of living.... as would anyone. Also, being a "Dublin taxpayer" has nothing whatsoever to do with anything. All the taxes you pay are for the benefit of society, not just of one city or area in the country. I say this as someone who lives in Dublin and has to deal with congestion. Vilifying or otherwise criticising people commuting from outside the city by car is not offering any solutions and if someone wishes to live a "bucolic" lifestyle, then let them.

    As an aside, traffic in Galway city has returned to pre-pandemic levels also and they are experiencing the same issues of delays and traffic jams. The issue with Galway is that most of the large employers have been setup in business parks to the east of the city whereas quite a substantial part of the population live on the west side of the city. This has caused massive tailbacks in the morning and evening and the local council have reduced or altered traffic light times to give more priority to foot traffic. While this policy is to be lauded, it has actually made matters worse now that people are back in the office. There is no viable alternative to the car in Galway city as the bus service is sub par so commuters have no choice there either. Talks of a city bypass ring road have been ongoing for the better part of 30 years and come around every election cycle, I doubt I will see this road before I retire. There does not seem to be the will to tackle the problem in the city at all.

    The "new normal" of working from home that was being championed at the beginning of the Pandemic is now turning into the "get back to the office" normal as companies realise they have to continue paying for buildings and facilities that are not being used. Those in charge of traffic management and public transport need to get their heads back in the game as I think they may have been lulled into a false sense of security by all the talk of working from home being the way of the future. A big push by all employers to stagger working from home days for their staff could make a difference but without a forward thinking Government and the civil servants in charge of transport issues, we are still going to be faced with congestion.

  • Registered Users Posts: 27,704 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko

    They should make the employees who use the car park pay for it, because otherwise ALL their employees are paying for it, including those who walk, use public transport or cycle. It is a subsidy to a select group of employees, usually the better paid employees, at the expense of all employees.

    Paying for your own storage space is not 'penalising', though as the new saying goes; "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

    Why not tax the cyclist road tax? Probably because no-one pays road tax in Ireland.

    Why not make them pay insurance? Probably because they don't do huge amounts of damage to people and property every day, as motorists do.

    Why don't they invent new tax system for cyclists to pay to fund cycle lanes? Great idea -a new tax for all road users to fund infrastructure based on wear and tear arising from the vehicle. A €5 bike tax would be proportional to a €150,000-ish tax for a Toyota Prius, rising to a couple of million euro for a large SUV. You'll be in favour of that, right?

  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]

    I understand what you're saying but there are people who absolutely need their cars and it's not small numbers so while you might make it sickening for some local to drive think about what that would do to the Person who has to drive to put food on the table, People are already massively taxed here.

  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]

    I still see no benefit in taxing car parking spaces, it's illogical in places where the business owns the site with the parking. Those who need to drive to work should not have to pay "another" tax just to park the car it's ridiculous, taking more money from the pockets of workers who have to feed families and pay mortgages who are already struggling.

    Sure, why not make cyclists pay for new infrastructure ? you expect that I should pay for my parking that the business owns and you should be privileged of using cycle lanes for free ?

    Yes I know there is no "road tax" but maybe it should be called Road Tax for cyclists ?

    So you're arguing that Cyclists should use the road/cycle for free probably scooter users too and not have to fund new cycle lanes or pay for their upkeep but I should pay for parking because I have to drive for work to a site that owns the parking space ?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring

    Never once said tax anyone.

    I said incentives for others.