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Cork developments

1152153155157158180

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭daithi7


    Curious, what are their affordability advantages?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14 CorkCraneCount


    The foundations and basement were completed with the first phase of the development years and years ago



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Possibly not good news for Custom House Quay

    Three executives of a large US construction company which was founded by a Kerry family face up to 20 years in jail after being found guilty of fraud.

    Donal O’Sullivan, 60, the founder of Navillus Contracting, his sister Helen O'Sullivan, 61, the payroll administrator, both with addresses in Queens, New York, and the company's financial comptroller, Padraig Naughton, 49, with an address in New York, faced charges of wire fraud, mail fraud, embezzlement from employee benefits funds, submission of false remittance reports to union benefits funds, and conspiracy to commit those crimes.

    [...]

    Donal O’Sullivan, who now faces jail, was a passive investor with his brother, Kevin O’Sullivan, who, through his firm, Tower Holdings Group, is behind plans for Ireland’s tallest building on the former Port of Cork Custom House site in the heart of Cork city.

    The ambitious 34-storey hotel and heritage project on Custom House Quay, at the confluence of the two channels of the river Lee, has planning permission from Bórd Pleanála but work on site has yet to start.

    The same firm is also behind plans for the €20m 15-storey Prism office building close to Parnell Place, also in Cork city.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Q4 2021: Post Covid Restrictions Update

    Its good to be back :) Lots of activity to report on. As reported by Cork Crane Count, there are 16 cranes active in the city. Way higher than any number since I have done this report.

    https://twitter.com/CorkCraneCount/status/1452310589758447621?s=20

    Under Construction

    Student Accommodation

    Crows Nest

    10 Storey 255 Bed Student Accomodation developed by UCC. 2 Cranes in Operation.


    Estimated to be completed by December 2021

    Square Deal

    5 Storey 280 Bed Student Accommodation developed by Round Hill Capital. 2 Cranes in Operation.

    Bandon Road

    6 Storey 412 Bed Student Accommodation developed by Round Hill Capital. 2 Cranes in Operation.

    Due to be completed in July 2022.

    Coca Cola Plant

    10 Storey 623 Bed Student Accommodation developed by Future Generation. Ground broke on Aug 11th, no cranes yet.

    95 North Main St

    7 Storey 279 Bed Student Accommodation developed by BMOR in the city centre. Demolition began in late September 2021. Technically this site is mixed use as it includes two retail units but is primarily student apartments. This development is of particular note as BMOR have signalled an interest in developing other properties in Cork, most notably the former Dunnes building, also on North Main Street which could be developed as a mixed use site centred around a hotel. They could possibly be the 4th major private developer (after JCD, BAM and OCP) to roll from one project to the next across multiple different types of developments in Cork. Tower Holdings have long singled that they will be the 5th but have yet to start any project. Clarendon, who are working in partnership with BAM on Horgans Quay may be the 6th...

    Apartments

    Lancaster Gate

    7 Storey 88 Apartment Accommodation developed by OCP in partnership with Cluid Homes. 1 crane in operation.

    Thomas Davis Street

    6 Storey 112 Apartment Accommodation developed by Cluid Homes in Blackpool. Site clearance underway as of Oct 2021. 3 cranes in operation by early next year.

    St Kevins

    4 Storey 266 Apartment developed by the LDA in the city centre. Site clearance underway as of Oct 2021. The LDA have stated that they will step up as a major public sector developer for homes in Cork (and Dublin, Limerick and Galway) by activating construction on state owned land. It has to be noted that the LDA have been pretty slow to move on a lot of their sites in Dublin and on this site in Cork, which got planning in December 2020, we may not see heavy construction until early 2022. At the same time, compared to the private sector apartments in Cork, the time taken to progress to site clearance is not bad at all. More on possible sites for the LDA later in this post.

    1A Watercourse Rd

    4 Storey 37 Apartment Accommodation in Blackpool developed by Citidwell Construction Ltd. 1 crane in operation.

    Bandon Rd Warehouse

    5 storey 43 apartment social housing development in the City Centre. Broke ground in Oct 2021.

    Nancy Spain

    32 Apartment social housing development by MMD in the City Centre.



    Coach Street

    12 Apartment development in the City Centre by Cumnor. 1 Crane in Operation.


    Office

    Horgans Quay

    7 Storey office development by BAM in the Docklands, completing the covid stalled office development which had its first phase open this year. 1 crane in operation. Luffing Crane which has never been on this update before. Work recommenced on the 27th of July.

    City Grate Plaza

    5 Storey office development by JCD in Mahon. Pre Let to Logitech. Started on July 1st

    Boston Scientific

    Private 3 storey development for Boston Scientific on their own site on Model Farm Road/City Centre. 1 crane on site

    Mixed Use

    Morrissons Quay

    6 storey mixed use Hotel and Office development by Quakeside Ltd in the City Centre. Broke ground in late August 2021. Hotel is pre let to Premier Inn.

    Public Service

    MTU

    Education development on the MTU Campus. 1 crane

    Glanmire Nursing Home

    Nursing home development in Glanmire. 1 crane

    Lee Road Water

    Water Works Development in the city centre. 1 crane

    CUH Extension

    Hospital extension in the city centre. 1 crane

    Mercy Theatre

    Hospital extension in the city centre. 1 Crane

    Planning Approved: Start Date confirmed

    Office

    The Prism

    15 Storey Office Development by Tower Holding in the City Centre. Hoarding went up just before covid hit. Tower Holdings confirmed that construction will finally commence in Q4 of this year. The conviction of Donal O'Sullivan, brother of the owner of Tower Holding and passive investor in the company, may put this and all Tower Holding projects under threat.


    Navigation Square C

    5 Storey Office development by OCP in the city centre. Navigation Square A (largest block on the top left of the photo) is complete, almost fully let and sold to a French Investment firm. Navigation Square B (top right) is complete and empty. Navigation Square C (highlighted) is set to recommence the development in Q4 after a two year stall due to covid, there is also a fourth block to be built to complete the development with no start date confirmed


    Student Accommodation

    Victoria Cross

    10 Storey Student Accommodation Development by Bellmount Developments across from the Crows Nest. Set to start in Q4 but the developers seemed less bullish than Tower Holding and OCP in this declaration...


    Hotel

    Dean Street Hotel

    7 Storey Hotel developed by Tetrarch Capital right next to the Bus Station and the Prism in the City Centre. The developers confirmed that they would start in the same article on the Examiner as Tower Holding but in Q1 2022. Posts on reddit have claimed this is not true and this development was linked to the Event Centre, the developers have run out of patience and will abandon it.

    Planning Granted: No Start Date Confirmed

    Hotel

    Camden Place

    7 Storey Hotel being developed by Santiago Capital on behalf of Marriott to be developed as their Moxy Hotel brand. Granted planning in August 2021. Signage has gone up and funding is confirmed.

    Custom House Tower

    34 Storey Hotel being developed by Tower Holdings. Its been in the news since 2017 but only got full planning permission in March of this year, at the height of the pandemic. As mentioned earlier, the conviction of a passive investor in US courts casts doubt over this project.

    Coliseum

    7 Storey Hotel proposed by Davy Real Estate. Approved in November 2020.

    71 South Mall

    4 Storey hotel proposed by Rezz who completed Corks newest hotel on MacCurtain Street under the same brand this year. This was granted permission in November 2019.


    Apartments

    To note here, due to the establishment of Croi Conaithe, a new fund announced in the Housing for All plan in September 2021, tasked with "helping to stimulate the activation of existing planning permissions for apartment developments with four floors or more that are above certain density thresholds" I have included all major apartment developments granted planning permission over the last few years in Cork City (if I have missed some please let me know). Some of these developments, such as the Nemo Rangers site in Douglas and Jacobs Island site in Mahon, I would have given a close to zero percent chance of starting in their current form but now seem to have a chance of additional funding and activation.

    Interestingly and somewhat disappointingly, the CEO of the Cork Chamber Conor Healy mentioned he doesn't think that Croi Conaithe goes far enough to address the clear viability issues in Cork for high density apartment developments (by my count we have 3k apartments in major developments with planning permission in the city where no work has happened on site). Conor Healy said; "The establishment of a Croí Cónaithe (Cities) Fund contained within the Housing for All report will go some of the way to addressing the apartment viability challenge, but as the recent CIF/Cork Chamber report produced by KPMG highlights much more needs to be done to address this urgent issue which has not been addressed by this strategy. Over 50% of the 300,000 homes promised for delivery by 2030 are to come from private sector developers, and based on KPMG research findings this, based on current costs, is unviable. Housing For All is a start but it won’t achieve the desired effect without directly addressing challenges such as brownfield apartment viability. In light of the publication of this strategy, Cork Chamber is calling on the Government for wider departmental engagement to ensure all economic impacts are considered on the issue and direct interventions that will allow the scale of delivery that Housing For All promises"

    There is another proposal in the Housing for all plan called Project Tosaigh which will be run by the LDA. The aim of this project is to "unlock land with full planning permission that is not being developed by private sector owners due to financing and other constraints and use it to accelerate the supply of affordable housing. the LDA will target the delivery of 5,000 new homes by 2026 through Project Tosaigh, with the agency to have full ownership of homes for affordable cost rental, with the balance being sold to eligible households under affordable purchase arrangements" So it seems that Croi Conaithe will help developers by covering up to 25% of costs with constraints such as no build to rent but developers will retain ownership while Project Tosaigh will outright buy the sites from the developers (before or after construction) and rent the homes themselves. The LDA will not be building anything in Cork outside of Project Tosaigh, besides the aforementioned St Kevins site, before 2027. More on the potential sites from 2027 on later but hopefully the relative lack of activity until the end of the decade means that a few of the below sites could be picked up by Project Tosaigh.

    Hopefully we can see some action on these stalled developments over the next two years. In the mean time read on for the possibilities...

    Waterfall Road

    4 Storey 139 Apartment Development by Ardstone Homes Ltd in Bishopstown grated permission in August 2021.


    Horgans Quay

    11 Storey 325 Apartment Development by BAM in the Docklands adjacent to their completed Hotel and in construction Office development. The last update from BAM in September 2021 was: In relation to building a residential block of 325 apartments on Horgan’s Quay as part of the overall development, Mr Downing said they remain hopeful that they will be on site early next year. He said they were “engaged with a number of people” vis-à-vis getting a PRS (private rented sector) operator on board.


    Marina Quarter

    14 Storey, 1,002 Apartment Development in the Docklands proposed by Glenveagh. Planning Granted in April of 2021. When pressed by The Examiner, Glenveagh could not give a start date. I would guess we are still a few years off a start date. Infrastructure to the site is also an issue however there was a 354 million euro commitment to funding the Cork Docklands infrastructure in March 2021 including; transport and mobility, public realm, drainage and flooding, all of which will massively benefit this site which is much further East, away from the city centre, than all other major proposals in the area.

    Cois Caislean

    54 Apartments as part of a 4 storey development by Stonecrest Construction in Ballincollig. Granted planning in Jan 2021. No renders that I could find.

    Mount Woods

    145 Apartments in 5 stories, as part of a wider residential development by Glenveagh in Douglas. Granted planning in August 2020. Housing on this site has started construction. The apartments will be the last stage scheduled to be completed with 234 houses and 93 Duplex's to be completed first.

    Bayly

    160 apartments in a 5 storey development by Cairn Homes in Douglas. Granted planning permission in Oct 2019. Again part of a larger residential development which broke ground over the summer and again the apartments will be last to be completed.

    Ursuline Convent

    274 apartments in a 7 storey development by Glenveagh in Blackrock. Granted planning in July 2019. Again I couldn't find any renders.

    The Good Shepard

    182 Apartments in a 6 storey development by Modena Developments in Sundays Well. Granted planning in November 2018.

    5 Victoria Road

    19 apartments in a 10 storey development by Target Ark in the Docklands. Granted Permission in February 2019.

    Nemo Rangers

    153 apartments in a 6 storey development by Dildar Ltd in Douglas. Granted planning permission in November 2018. Nothing has happened since. Again no renders to be found on this one.

    Jacobs Island

    437 apartment in a 25 story development by Horizon Ltd in Mahon. Granted planing permission in October 2018. Site was put up for sale shortly after planning was granted with seemingly no success.


    Entertainment

    Events Centre

    A 6,000 capacity indoor events development by BAM in the City Centre. Granted planning permission most recently in March 2020. Funding in place, legal challenges dropped and as of mid Sept 2021 it is awaiting (yet another) final approval, this time by Live Nation. This sod was turned for this development in 2016, it has been through 2 planning processes, you can read this article from Sept 2015 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/work-on-new-cork-events-centre-to-begin-before-end-of-year-1.2350086 and it looks remarkably similar to the most recent media round in Sept 2021: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40697558.html While there is deservedly an enormous amount of cynicism, a lot of the developments in this thread hinge on this being completed. Hopefully this can, finally, finally actually break ground in early 2023.

    Student Accommodation

    Kellehers Tyres

    An 8 storey, 154 bed 23 apartment development by Belmount Developments in the city centre. Approved in June of 2020.

    Orchard Road

    5 storey 216 bed 30 apartment student development by Dennis O'Brien in the City Centre. Approved in October 2020. Brought to the high court by local residents in December 2020.

    Education

    UCC Dental School

    5 storey 8500 sqm dental school in Curaheen. UCC claimed that it was due to break ground in August 2020. I can't find any update since.


    In Planning

    Apartments

    East Douglas Street

    10 Storey, 65 apartment development by Sirio Homes in Douglas. Applied for planning in Oct 2021.

    Railway Gardens

    17 Storey, 118 apartment development in the City Centre by Scally's. Originally got planning in December 2019 but applied for changes to the planning in September of 2021. It is not clear what the changes are. A decision is due on the 13th of January 2022. This site was put up for sale but then the original developers went back to Cork City Council to buy land to facilitate development. According to the council in June of 2021 "detailed design work is already underway on the project"

    Redforge Road

    9 storey, 114 apartment development by Belmont developments in Blackpool. Planning logged in Sept 2021 and a decision is due on the 17th of January. It seems another plan went to ABP by the same developers on this site in 2020 but it was either abandoned when further information was requested or rejected. The ABP website is not clear.


    Blackpool Furniture Store

    6 storey 31 apartment development in Blackpool by Eichsfield Ltd. Planning applied for in June 2021

    Mahon Apartments

    7 storey, 204 apartment development in Mahon by Clyde Real Estate. Applied for planning in May of 2021.

    Alfred Street

    10 storey, 78 apartment development by Cork Simon in the Docklands. Applied for permission in April of 2021. Cork City Council asked them to go back and cut one floor.

    Mount Oval

    4 Storey, 35 Apartment development in Rochestown by O'Flynn's. Planning applied for in May 2021.

    Mixed Use

    Ballycurreen

    9 Storey mixed use hotel, retail and apartment development by Denis McBarron in Ballycurreen including a hotel (158 beds), apartments (134) and retail. Applied for permission in July 2021. Further information requested in September 2021.

    Queens Old Castle

    7 storey mixed use retail and office development by Clarendon in the City Centre. Applied in August of 2021. A decision was due in September but no word yet.


    Office

    Albert Quay

    17 storey office development in the Docklands by JCD. Decision due in December 2021. Previously a 25 storey build to rent apartment scheme also by JCD was approved and then scrapped due to viability issues.

    Education

    UCC Tyndal

    7 storey education development by UCC in the City Centre. Planners advised UCC not to demolish the former Cork Distillers Bottling Plant in July 2021. A revised application may take some time.


    Planning Expected

    Mixed Use

    Origin Enterprises

    Enormous South Docklands site purchased by OCP in September 2019, with the first planning permission due before the end of 2021. Apartments will be included but there hasn't been any confirmation of what the overall mix will be. The notable R&H Hall and Odlums Building are both on this site.

    North Main Street Dunnes

    A mixed use Hotel and Retail development expected from BMOR on North Main Street in the City Centre. One would expect they would look to move straight over from their student accommodation site under construction also on North Main Street. If that is the case planning should come sometime in the first half of 2022.

    Tivoli

    A mix use Apartment and Retail development by the Port of Cork on the soon to be shut Tivoli docks on the North West of the Cork Docklands, which will accommodate 10,000 people. Construction due to start in 2025 with a tentative completion date of 2029. Planning should be due sometime around late 2023.

    Marina Quarter Phase 4

    Mixed use office and retail on the site purchased on the South Docks by Glenveagh where they have approval for 1,000 apartments. Phase 4 is set to include a 20-30 storey tower. I'd be surprised to see a planning application this side of 2025.

    Apartments

    CMP Accommodation

    A consultation with ABP for 706 apartments by CMP on the former CMP site in Ballyphehane was submitted in Aug 2021. We should see plans before the end of the year if it isn't outright rejected.

    Cork Warehouse Co

    A consultation with ABP for 191 apartments in the Docklands by the Comer Group was submitted in Sept 2021. We should see an application by the end of the year.

    Blessborough North

    A consultation with ABP by Estuary View Enterprises for 184 apartments on the Blessborough site in Blackrock submitted in Sept 2021. We should see an application by the end of the year.

    Blessborough

    A second consultation with ABP by Estuary View Enterprises for 283 apartments on the Blessborough site in Blackrock submitted in Sept 2021.It should be noted that both of these applications are separate from the rejected planning permission on another area of the same Blessborough site. We should see an application by the end of the year.

    Kent Yard

    A North Docks site owned by Irish Rail which has been identified as a key strategic area for apartment development. The urban regeneration fund has targeted to complete site enabling works by the end of 2022. We could see a planning permission by the end of next year.

    Marina Power Station

    Site identified by the IDA in the docklands for apartment development after 2026.

    Suttons Coal

    Site identified by the IDA in the docklands for apartment development after 2026.

    Wilton ESB

    Site identified by the IDA in Wilton for apartment development after 2026.

    Kilbarry IDA

    Site identified by the IDA in Blackpool for apartment development after 2026.

    Public

    UCC Business School

    Site of the former CMP office proposal called Trinity Quarter. UCC aim to complete by Q1 2025. We should see planning in 2022.

    Cork City Library

    Funding announced in Summer 2021 for a new library and public realm works on the site of the current library in the City Centre.



  • Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭ltd440


    Wow, great post



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭blindsider


    That must have taken up most of the day - fair play for putting in the time and effort!!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    Fantastic update, actually gives me hope that there is some light at the end of the tunnel for Cork housing, all that student accommodation should free up some rental properties anyway!

    Saw last week the apts going up by the River Lee Hotel are affordable rent for working people by Cluid with O Callagahan developments:




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭who_me


    Great update!

    There's a small apartment development at 20/21 Kyle St. too, in progress. 10 1-bed apartments, currently the foundation has been laid down.



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Absolutely incredible post snotboogie. Take a bow.


    SHD consultation has commenced with ABP for 1,030 apartments at the Tedcastles site on Centre Park Road by the Comers. Site is bigger than the Glenveagh site across the road so the number is interesting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    This refusal was appealed to ABP and has been overturned according to Examiner:

    A 15-unit student apartment complex is set to proceed after An Bord Pleanála overturned a decision by Cork City Council to reject the plan. Developer Mideam Ltd had proposed the demolition of a rear annex and outbuildings on Hawthorn House, fronting on to Western Road and Mardyke Walk. In its place, a four-storey student accommodation development was to be built.

    [...]

    An Bord Pleanála and its inspector have, accordingly, overturned the rejection and approved the scheme on the basis that it would “contribute to the provision of much-needed student accommodation in Cork city”.




  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    Planning is so broken in this country, the amount of projects that get the go ahead from ABP after being shot down by local planners is unreal, are there any repercussions for the local planners who made the wrong decision? Not that I've heard about, the government admitted they arnt up to the task by creating the SHD bypass to ABP. Seems to be far too many planning decisions are up to the individual preferences of which ever local planner's desk it lands on and whether they like the look of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭ofcork


    I assume the site on sullivans quay is a dead duck at this stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    The 5 storey development was rejected by council. New application for 3 storeys:

    Permission for a new 3-storey building at Carmelite Place, Western Road, Cork. The residential development comprises of a total of 14 dwellings in a mix of 5 no. 1-bed and 2 no. 2-bed ground floor apartments, and 5 no. 3-bed and 2 no. 4-bed duplexes. Site development works includes 40 bicycle parking spaces, plantroom, waste and recycling storage, and external shared amenity areas. Pedestrian and cycling access will be from Mardyke Walk.

    Carmelite Place, Western Road, Cork

    http://planning.corkcity.ie/AppFileRefDetails/2140598/0



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    In fairness, nobody can accuse Cork City of being anti-height, so when they ask someone to reduce the height you'd feel they must have good reasons.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,027 ✭✭✭opus


    This apartment building on Kyle St is flying up & had its height reduced as well I read.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Cork BusConnects network redesign due to be published today.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Details here of the bus network redesign. Some big changes including no more buses on Grand Parade or South Mall.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    That doesn't seem quite right. No buses on some of the busiest streets in the city. Just leaves those streets for cars!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,428 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Wouldn't fancy driving that 2A bus up and down Church Hill in Glanmire. Proper gradient there



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,474 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    I was expecting more additional routes, kind of disappointed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    I think that's the point. Patrick Street is going to be the major cross city corridor for buses so it looks like South Mall and Grand Parade are being freed up to take the cars.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    It's all I can think of too, that they're concentrating cars on some corridors, buses on others. That's not a bad strategy, IMO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 594 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    All the routes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    The loss of the current link (#205) from Kent to MTU/UCC is a head scratcher. I use the 205 and quite a few students use it from Kent to go to UCC and MTU.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 594 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    It looks like Carrigaline, Maryborough Hill and Douglas are going to lose their connections to UCC and MTU, too. They should make a 3C that goes down Western Road and up Sunday's Well Road-Shanakiel Road-Blarney Road-Harbour View Road. That would cover UCC, people going to MTU can transfer on Western Road then to the three 2 routes



  • Registered Users Posts: 487 ✭✭BikeRacer


    Some really bizarre decisions. The success of the 220 through Ballincollig/Douglas/Carrigaline and they decide to scrap it? If you're from Douglas/Carrigaline and want to go to Washington St. you'll either have a long walk from Merchants Quay or have to get a second bus. No direct bus from city to Crosshaven anymore either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    The new #8 goes to Washington Street from Douglas.

    I suppose overall they seem to be going for more frequent interchanges with through ticketing etc. Will have to see how it plays out in reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,474 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    It'll be a disaster if there's no follow through with bus lanes at junctions and traffic management. I'm fully expecting a half assed plan that gets rolled back to a compromise that makes nobody happy. Hoping I'm proved wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭EnzoScifo


    They are shadowing the planned light rail line with Ballincollig-Mahon Point. setting out the corridor.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    The 8, 3 (3a and 3b), 42x, 7, 12 and 14 all pass through Douglas village, with the 8, 3A, 3B and 12 all following the Douglas Road. This area needs enormous investment in bus priority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,474 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Now that you mention Douglas there are planned two-way routes on both Douglas Roads, I thought the Bus Connects plan was to make both roads one way plus a bidirectional cycle lane? Might have been wishful thinking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    One way systems like that are generally a bit of a disaster for public transport. You could live close to the bus one way but could be a fair distance away from it in the opposite direction. The choices consultation in July had a big section on why one way splits are not desirable. They tend to inconvenience more people due to outbound and inbound journey stops being far apart.

    When two directions of a route are far apart, some people will find that the walk, either going or returning, is too long for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Yes that was the plan on CMATs. You can see from the images below but it seems to have disappeared from the current plan. Imo this makes a huge section of the network unviable. I hope that this gets updated on the infrastructure plan but I doubt it.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,474 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Yeah it never made sense for the PT aspect but would have been necessary for the cycling plan, unless they propose CPOing parts of people's front gardens, which won't happen in a million years. That CMATS map had bus lanes going through the tunnel IIRC so it was never meant to be taken seriously IMO.

    I think I'm going to be disappointed by what we end up with. We might get a dedicated bus lane in each direction with the other lane for all vehicles but unless they CPO there isn't a hope of getting even a single continuous cycle lane on each road (or even a proper footpath), and if they cop out with a fragmented one which ends at pinch points it won't encourage many who'd be nervous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    The problem is that there is no other option to get bus priority on either road, they are massive traffic black spots and they carry close to the entirety of the public transport from Douglas, Rochestown, Passage and Carrigaline to the city.

    The big routes here are the 3, 8, 7 and 12, which will carry the 90% of the peak traffic from these 4 areas. The 3, 8 and 12 will use the Douglas Road and the 7 will use the South Douglas Road. Without a major incentive to speed up buses, this huge population centre (about 70k people) won't get out of their cars.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    I think the bus network will trump the cycle lanes ultimately. However we haven't yet seen the infrastructure part of the plan as all we got today was the network design. Have to wait and see.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    They won't get out of their cars with one way splits either. We haven't yet seen what the infrastructure plan for this looks like, as we only got the network today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,474 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    True, when choosing between them bus will win. Though the cynic in me says private motor vehicles will ultimately be the last to lose out.

    Looking forward to the infrastructure part of the consultation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    The splits would only be on the South Douglas and Douglas Roads. It would not affect people coming from Grange, Carrigaline, Rochestown, Douglas Village, Passage, Monkstown etc. Both roads are low density residential areas so a split would only affect those living on the roads. The primary origins and destinations would be before and after the split. Its not perfect but it would be better than sending every bus into traffic black spots



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Yeah that's the big part of this. I'd be fearful that the infrastructure element will take forever and will get bogged down in endless local objections to the point of being useless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    You would also have to change the general traffic flow to one way. I can imagine a massive wave of nimbyism and local objections of epic proportions. I suspect that played a part in this design also. And there's still a fair few people who live near those roads so making the bus unusable for them would only cause more traffic woes. The roads are narrow leaving few good options unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    100% yes, however CPO's would be worse again and doing nothing will make public transport essentially unviable for the largest suburb and commuter town in Cork.

    My only point of disagreement is making the bus unusable for people living on those roads. A huge number of people live in between the roads which would not be a huge inconvenience. The people it would really hurt would be those in Ballinlough who use the Douglas Road bus stops and to a lesser extent those in the housing estates in front of Nemo who use the South Douglas Road bus stops.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Surely the approach needs to be one of targeted CPOs of mostly commercial properties. I am not familiar with the area but there seems to be several small poor quality commercial units, parking areas, underused land and corner houses with large gardens where space could be taken. Avoid going after rows of houses facing directly onto the road, there is strength in numbers so don't unite people in their opposition.

    The split routes approach is the only realistic one, it would allow for retaining two general traffic lanes on both DR and SDR while providing a combination of bus lane or bus priority measures in one direction only on each. Essentially adding a third lane where possible, or bus priority lights where not. Not perfect but far better than just leaving buses contend with all other traffic. By retaining general traffic in both directions on both roads, you limit the opposition.

    If you have general traffic in both directions, you can provide core bus services in one direction on each road but another bus in the other direction on the other road. So, if 3, 8 and 12 use SDR city-bound and DR outbound (both with some level of bus priority in those directions only), the 7 goes the other direction in the general traffic lane. That way, people in that area retain direct buses, they will just be slow and lesser frequency in one direction. As most journeys from this area are likely to be relatively short, this should be acceptable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 594 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    I made a Bus Connects thread



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,474 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Avoid going after rows of houses facing directly onto the road

    Unfortunately these are where the worst pinch points are. The tend to be near junctions as well.

    Essentially adding a third lane where possible, or bus priority lights where not

    A third motor vehicle lane would only fit in places where it would have minimum benefit, plus you have the new problem of trying to merge back in to the other lane every few hundred metres. Could end up making things worse. Though I expect this is what we'll get. There might be enough room for priority lights at one or two junctions but unless the implementers have the guts to go through with drastic changes to the continuous road layout I think we'll be stuck with the status quo, or worse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭SleetAndSnow


    From my reading of that the 214 (changed to the 5) no longer goes past the lough and up to noonan road etc, which is a loss for like all of wilton/togher to get to UCC (use it daily). Also a lot of elderly people on the bus use it to go to the Lough Church.

    219 route also seems to be gone so there would be one bus service for all that area. Was useful for getting to douglas/Mahon. Agree that they seem to want people to change buses to get to places, but IMO that will turn people off unless there is dedicated routes that only buses can use.

    Noonan road actually looks to lose all its bus services as the 216 (changed to the 14) bypasses it now too? EDIT: Just saw they have the 10, other point still stands though!


    I'm not sure how I feel about the new routes really.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Apologies for the continued Douglas discussion!

    It's actually not so bad on the Douglas Road. You could get uninterrupted bus priority pretty much the entire length of it with minimal CPO's if it's just one extra lane. The worst stretch is between Ballincurrig Park and Konckrae Park, where several driveways in a row would need to be CPO'd. Other than that you can go all the way from the N40 to just before N27 with commercial CPO's and the odd driveway. I don't think any of the CPO's mentioned are unreasonable. The South Douglas Road is mostly the same except for a pinch point between Rathmore Lawn and Rosebank where CPO's would be essentially impossible.

    To be honest I think Petes post is the best solution I've heard for this issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Noonans Road has the 10 and the 4 in the new network. The new 4 travels along Pouladuff and probably makes more sense than the existing 214 as it beings more people closer to a bus route. It's about a 2 minute walk along Gould Street to the Church.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Doesn't seem to me the split route is going to happen. The consultant for this, Jarrett Walker, is ardently opposed to split routes. And most transport consultants will tell you split routes are not at all desirable. Douglas Road will be the CBC per the BusConnects infrastructure element:




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