Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Frost is definitely not liked : he is seen as an unelected bureaucrat. He has no actual connection to the Tory Party, other than being hired by Johnson.

There's a very obvious reason why - what they proposed had never been done before - they were willing to risk the single market for 450 million people for it. They tested the NIP, saw how it was working when it hit the ground, then calibrated based on the feedback.

I did read an interesting point which I thought accurate - the reason the EU was so generous with this is because it ensures member state unity if the UK rejects.

It's an interesting one. Johnson is definitely popular with the faithful but Frost seems strongly disliked (possibly because he is an outsider to the Tories and was seemingly pro-Remain pre-referendum.....I think people suspect he is just a chancer at heart).

The NIP as last agreed and signed by the parties is that threshold, and that is plenty clear.

Don’t fall for the tabloid hype: these proposals, all generous that they are, merely tinker around the NIP-implementing edges. They do nothing to soften, diminish or modify the NIP itself in any way. Moreover, they come with a lot of reciprocal strings attached(conveniently unmentioned by much of the British media).

Rest assured that the observers to whom this really matters, i.e. the trade-diplo-intelligence eyes of the US, Russia, China and so many more, are seeing this for exactly what it is: the EU finding, and giving, Johnson/the ERG still more rope to hang themselves with.

These proposals, if implemented (therefore subject to the UK giving the EU27 the data, accesses, etc requested in consideration) only advantage NI businesses further, relative to English/Welsh/Scottish businesses, driving still more of a success/failure wedge along that Irish Sea border. Then the time shall come soon enough, of Westminster having to justify the annual £10bn stipend to NI, when it is booming relative to the rest of the country. Then…

Plenty of method to the EU’s apparent madness, y’see.

They haven't quite - the ECJ still remains very much part of the NIP going forward.

It is quite likely that the UK will still reject all of these proposals on that.

The UK will comply with the obligations it freely entered in the withdrawal agreement with the EU - or face the international consequences. The UK's bravado about "no deal being better than a bad deal" then admitting afterwards that it was a "moment of extraordinary weakness" remains the case.

Actually UK's threats to renege on the withdrawal agreement (in particular its demands to remove the ECJ) are not normal.

"We would like to have a closer relationship & offer you this if you would do that" is rather different to "accept that I renege on this agreement or we go back to murdering people in northern Ireland"

Think others have answered this anyway but... 

The main thing the EU "cares" about will be what the members (including Ireland) want and its own workings/institutions (the Single market and customs is a large component of that).

Unionists have complained about the NI Protocol (I think some of the complaints were still theoretical because the UK had not fully implemented the Protocol). This creates instability in NI, this affects Ireland negatively. EU will try and adjust the Protocol, which from what I have read (haven't looked at full details) somewhat weakens protections for Single Market that were built into it (much of which UK was not bothering to implement). 

That is the "ball" Frost (and Johnson) can play with + the leverage UK have over the EU (through Ireland and our link to NI). The previous UK leaders were more responsible than current ones and wary of poking and prodding NI, so did not use it to full advantage. Frost/Johnson don't care. I think if you are looking for compromises/working things out you don't really undermine something very publically the day before it is released in way Frost did when I'm guessing he had a fairly good idea what was in it (all the better to focus attack on what would not be in it).

In fairness, like all of us you do have a dog in this fight to some extent, since you are bothering to discuss it and your position is generally defending the UK govt. from attack and saying they are not quite as bad as (majority here) think they are + give them the benefit of the doubt.

Macron is not "bizzare" or "sidelined" IMO, just at one end of a spectrum of opinion. I think he reached the very end of the road sooner in trying to deal with the UK as a reliable partner after Brexit, the other EU leaders will likely get there eventually the longer this all goes on + the more the UK works away at undermining and damaging the EU post Brexit.

It's meant to stop a hard border. Smoothing UK wide trade wasn't really the point. It's the NI protocol not the UK protocol

I see you have picked up some Scottish unionist quotes. The Tories in Scotland quote this all the time as if it is relevant. For the record, more people in Scotland voted to remain in the EU than voted to leave the EU (62% remain, 38% leave)

UK govt ignored that little bit of democracy and went for hard Brexit because they are essentially an English govt and England gets what it wants in the 'precious union'

NI was the desperate to be English DUP, Wales the heavily English planted border and again Scotland it's the desperate to suck up to the English unionists.

Not just the English voted for it and I know people from many nationalities who voted for it including Irish, Indians and Caribbean people. That doesn't get away from what it was which is the last final spaff of old empire English nationalism and the English would burn all the rest to achieve it