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Metrolink south of Charlemont

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,644 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Dunville Ave didn't kill Metrolink but it was certainly a factor Metrolink being curtailed and not extending to Sandyford, although the disruption to the existing Green Line was probably a bigger factor. The disruption to the Green Line nettle will still have to be grasped but not having to severe Dunville Ave will hopefully make the extension easier when the time comes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    surely the severing of Danville ave is a small price to pay the Metro. This entire project has be bedevilled by the well connected objecting: mcDowell on his soapbox, Danville Ave well to do brigade , na Fianna GAA and their pitch FFS !

    Varadkar would be better served by keeping out of the papers and trying to practically help deliver some first world infrastructure to this city. Up to now we have just about got away with underinvestment and skeleton services, but the scale of development, population, and switch to public transport means this is critical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    Dunville Avenue could be severed, but the new alignment means its not necessary.

    The Beechwood Metro station will now sit under the roadway



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Of course they could server it out of spite.

    However, they should review the possibility of getting the Metro to join the Green line at Charlemont because of the sewer. Divert the Green line down Adelaide Rd as far as Leeson St.



  • Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    It's too late for that, the alignment is continuing under Ranelagh



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The TBMs are not in the ground yet. The tenders have not been received or sought yet. The final route is not approved yet. The RO has not been approved yet. The RO has not been applied for yet. The ground surveys for the Charlemont to Beechwood have not completed yet.

    Of course its too late.



  • Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    The entire line has been designed. This is the same attitude of people who think we can just swing the Metro down to Terenure.

    If you want to change the alignment, sure but we'll have to start the process again.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The line is designed as far SSG. After that it is still in design as far as I know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    No, there is a feasibility study with the NTA considering metro provision for the South West. Rethink Metrolink want the line to end at SSG to make it more likely that the Green Line will not be upgraded, they have told reps in the area that they should wait for the feasibility study before deciding whether to continue to Charlemont. But the line is regardless.

    The line as it stands ends in Ranelagh, the line has been designed on this basis, with loadings and station sizes based on the design eventually going to Sandyford. Similarly the costings of construction and the business case developed is based on the line goign to Ranelagh,



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    It's almost certain to be severed. When they discovered the sewer under the canal, they realised that they'd need a plan to increase capacity on the southern section of the Luas. They're planning on running 30 trams an hour, with St Raphaela’s Road being grade separated. They mention Dunville Avenue, saying that there'd be an adjustment of signal priority, but I really don't see how you could call Dunville Avenue "open" when there's 30 trams an hour going through it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Why is Dunville only single lane, they can easily make it both ways to vehicle traffic...

    Am I also seriously to believe that a sewer is that problematic? Enough to derail a metro project ? Seems uniquely irish...



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well the sewer is a main sewer running under the canal requiring a deeper tunnel that could not rise enough to fit the planned connection. The sewer could not be rerouted because it is too 'main'. So onto plan B.

    It is not uniquely Irish to take account of a main sewer that could cause such difficulties to a project. At least they had a plan B.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    The sewer being where it was forced them to move the tunnel portal further south.

    Moving it further south meant that it could no longer be done off line.

    With it no longer being off line, the Luas was to close for a significant amount of time, far longer than was originally planned.


    Most likely, there is a way in which they could construct the tunnel portal so as to minimise disruption, but basically every option that they have will involve CPOs from some of the wealthiest and "nimby"est people in Ireland. Why start that fight when it would just delay the vast majority of the project. If Metrolink goes ahead, NTA/TII will be able to point to the Green Line and say "look at this over capacity line, for €300m we could have a Metrolink all the way out to Sandyford, but it involves some CPOs here." That's a lot better argument than trying to do it all at the start.



  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭specialbyte


    It's not just any old sewer. That sewer is the Grand Canal Tunnel, which is part of the Dublin Drainage Tunnel built in the 1970s to reduce pollution in Dublin Bay. Here's a link to the RTÉ archives on the project.

    The sewer tunnel is massive in comparison to many other sewers. It has a diameter of 3.6m. You could easily walk through the tunnel with tons of head room. For comparison the Victoria Tube Line in London runs in a 3.8m diameter tunnel. Some of the older London Tube tunnels are smaller. This tunnel is near big enough to run a metro train through.

    From this sewer map of Dublin you can see how the Grand Canal Tunnel fits into the sewer network. It is the main trunk sewer for Tallaght, Lucan, Ballyfermot, Crumlin, Kimmage and many other places in Dublin.

    It would not have been feasible to move that sewer. It's kinda surprising that TII didn't know about that sewer before publishing the original emerging preferred route. I suspect many Dublin City Council engineers immediately spotted the issue when the plan was published.

    It's an interesting sewer project. It's disappointing that it complicates the metro upgrade but plan B looks pretty solid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    It's the sewer that saved Dunville Avenue from being severed.

    The Luas line will end at Beechwood North of Dunville Avenue, the metro will emerge from the tunnel south of Dunville Avenue.

    The road will be closed in various stages during the construction of the portal, but once operational the road will be reopened, and reopened as a two way road, meaning traffic will flow better than currently.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Yeah, there's still huge question marks about when that'll happen, and in the meantime, the planned Luas upgrades will play havoc with Dunville Avenue. I can't see it staying open if it's causing traffic chaos every morning and evening. It might get sorted once Metrolink South gets built, but as I said, we still don't know when that'll happen (hopefully sooner rather than later).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    The comments on this thread don't seem to address the fact that many other cities in Europe are currently running 30+ trams per hour, across several road crossings, with no problems.

    A bit of adjustment at Dunville Avenue, and Dublin should be free to go with 30 trams per hour through that junction, like many developed European cities.

    And I would certainly be in favour of a LUAS line along Adelaide Road. I would envisage something toward Baggot Street Bridge, but eventually going on to somewhere in the Grand Canal area.

    It is, I think, also important to look at what other cities with a broadly similar density are doing. We have seen that cities like Munich, Copenhagen, Helsinki and Frankfurt have, over the years, created an environment where rail transport to the city centre is 1-1.5 km from where a person lives.

    The gap between the DART and the Red LUAS, into town, is 15 Km. For the Green LUAS, at Dundrum, it's 7-8 km either side, and it must be hoovering up much more a larger catchment than is happening in those cities, especially as it's not a particularly dense area, by any standards.

    Obvious targets to bring much of South Dublin in line with those cities would be a metro to Rathmines, Terenure and the southwest and LUASification of the N11. Increasing the throughput on the Green Line could help in the interim, but either that or converting to metro are not the answer to what is really needed on Dublin's southside.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Thanks for clarification, that is a huge diameter sewer. I was expecting something pretty mickey mouse...



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,224 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Other cities with much shorter trams operate 30 per hour sure, but the luas is an on street metro effectively.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Our trams are the longest there are, and probably the slowest. Is the 30 tph each direction? If so, that is one every minute - all crossings will be closed at all times.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Much of the crawl through the city centre would be helped, if cars didn't have priority at even minor junctions!



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    They need to brutally give the Luas and buses priority at junctions, and enforce box blocking and general arseaboutery that goes on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Yes, but we are talking about seconds with those shorter trams.

    Dunville Avenue should be well able to well deal with it.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Maybe seconds, but plenty of them. A 60 m tram does not pass a crossing in a few seconds - it is closer to minutes.

    Trams do not have gates. There have already been deaths and serious injury from idiots expecting the tram to swerve out of their way. A Dublin Bus crashed into a tram on OCS.

    Safety means Dunville must close.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Actually, to be clear, the tram crashed into the bus on OCS, not the other way around.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I recall the incident, but not the exact cause. If the tram crashed into the bus, then that makes it worse, and Dunville Ave should definitely close - can't have trams crashing into the local 4by4 child school transport, can we?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Not at all.

    Getting a 55m tram across that junction takes perhaps an extra 5-7 seconds over what it takes a 'normal' tram to cross a junction in the cities I mentioned.

    That leaves at least one minute and 30 seconds for traffic to cross on this very minor road.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The tram was driven into the side of a bus, through a tram signal that was displaying stop. It was an absolutely freak incident, which really has no relevance to this discussion.

    The uplift in frequency that could require Dunville Avenue to close is not going to happen until at least 2030, so it's a bit of a moot point right now.

    Even then, Dunville Avenue could still remain open, but possibly with some restricted hours for traffic, as the 30 trams per hour would only be needed at peak periods.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Ah, I remember that now, had a bit of a laugh at the driver causing a bit of a kerfuffle in the hospital when his wife and girlfriend arrived at the same time.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    Could you give an example of trams in europe running at frequencies of 30+ an hour? Are they as long as the Luas?



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