Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

JP22 · 23-09-2021 2:14pm

On energy generation – I think they should build a nuclear powered generator, which should keep the greens happy.

Then again, …………. On second thoughts, forget that idea, the government cannot safety protect the national IT infrastructure as it is.

Grizzly 45 · 23-09-2021 6:34pm

Then again, …………. On second thoughts, forget that idea, the government cannot safety protect the national IT infrastructure as it is.

Be the Simpsons Springfield nuclear power plant in real life,and probably the most expensive, least productive and overtime delivered nuke plant ever built going by all our other big projects in this country.The thoughts of the backhanders and brown paper envelopes on a project like this,and the ghastly thought of a few loads of pyrite cement being dumped into something critical like a containment vessel wall, is too horrible to contemplate...Best leave that to the grownups in the EU to supply us with the nuke leccky😮

Mellor · 25-09-2021 7:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907426#Comment_117907426

Again you’re focusing on the semantics and not the point. You implied it was pointless, whether you used the word or not is irrelevant. I’m entitled to paraphrase or summarise a post. It was clear that was the implication.

“Never said it would, could or did. I said "kinda is", IOW to some extent it should”

Completely incorrect. Many laws are independent. eg speed limits exists for safety, drink driving limit exists for safety. There’s no implication that one prevents the other.

Why do you always accuse me of something instead of asking? Weird that. I'm only repeating what she [Arden] said. I cannot move the goalposts on a narrative she created

She said it would not prevent similar attacks in the future. You repeated this in first post.

Then you change this to it wouldn’t have prevented this attack. Which is not the same thing, and not what she said. So no, you where just repeating, you were twisting the narrative yet again. And hilariously trying to deny it.

it’s really simple. If he was deported, this would not have happened. Period. Bizarre you would argue that. But powers to deport extremist refugees doesn’t mean it would some some other extremist doing the same.

The reason she was criticised for reaction and closing he loophole is there there are possibly no or few other people in the position he was in, so right now there is little protection gained by the move. That may be true, but it’s really no reason not to close the loophole.

kinda baffled that anyone who argue otherwise and be in favour of rights for terrorists.

Mellor · 25-09-2021 7:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928420#Comment_117928420

It’s counterintuitive but powering all these electric cars doesn’t add anything to demand. Cars are charged at night when demand is low.

It’s the data centres or any big power draws during the day that require more power stations.

Grizzly 45 · 25-09-2021 11:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936321#Comment_117936321

But what happens then at night when X tens of thousands go and plug in at night when there is "low demand"? The load on the grid is increased again,even more so with all the other "low nite demand" things kick in.IE nite storage heaters,etc. Add to the fact not everyone has a high output charger system like what's at a garage forecourt, which requires 3phase power, which is no way cheap in any shape or form.You can be awhile trying to charge these off 220v domestic like 6plus hours. This is still early stages technology,of a technological cul de sac,but until Hydrogen comes along,its what we will be stuck with.

Cass · 25-09-2021 12:26pm

Mellor - Again you’re focusing on the semantics and not the point.

Eh, nope. Over a week since me last reply and you are once again trying to argue a point I never made.

Mellor - You implied it was pointless,

Nope again. You inferred such, and you used the word pointless, not I.

Mellor - whether you used the word or not is irrelevant.

Its very relevant because, wait for it, I DIDN'T USE THE WORD.

Mellor - I’m entitled to paraphrase or summarise a post. It was clear that was the implication.

Again, nope. Its clear that was your implication. You're desparately trying to apportion the use of this word to me when you used it, she said it, and this is all down to your inferrence. I mean seriously, I never said it, you and Arden did so why am I having to "defend" the use of something I never said on the basis thatt you want to push the narrative its "mine"?

Mellor - Completely incorrect. Many laws are independent. eg speed limits exists for safety, drink driving limit exists for safety. There’s no implication that one prevents the other.

You realise they're all under the one road traffic act?

Mellor - Then you change this to it wouldn’t have prevented this attack. Which is not the same thing, and not what she said. So no, you where just repeating, you were twisting the narrative yet again. And hilariously trying to deny it.

You keep accusing me of twisting the narrative, seemingly forcing me to defend a position I have not taken, in the hopes of deflecting from your complete bastardisation of the article, my replies, and your injection of your own narrative into what was said to the point you're making up stuff I said, claiming I said it, then when its shown I did not, you desparately try to claim I "meant it"! That is hilarious.

Mellor - it’s really simple. If he was deported, this would not have happened. Period.

The problem here is you are so focused on the export of islamic terroroists you're missing the point. If she bans all islamic terrorists how will that prevent knife attacks such as this? Are islamic terrorists the only ones to carry out such attacks? You're so laser focused on the person that committed the attack that youre pigeon holing all future attacks into that category and assumign future attacks will would only be carried out by such people.

So when she says future legislation will not prevent similar attacks (simialr meaning the same as this one) she means the ability to deport someone "immediately" will not stop some nutter (already a citizen, not know to police, etc) form carrying out an attack of this nature. The hilarious part is you don't see this and are only focused on single person in the context of a single event.

Mellor - Bizarre you would argue that.

Not sure if you're having trouble ith English, not reading my replies, or simply ignoring the multiple times I've said it but I DIDN'T SAY IT, SHE DID.

Mellor - But powers to deport extremist refugees doesn’t mean it would some some other extremist doing the same.

Stop the bus, he finally gets it. So like SHE SAID, you're saying that if such deportation laws were in effect at the time of this attack and it was some other nutter the new legislation would not prevent it? Weird.

Mellor - The reason she was criticised for reaction and closing he loophole is there there are possibly no or few other people in the position he was in, so right now there is little protection gained by the move.

So what SHE SAID, and what I'm repeated (of what SHE SAID) is correct? Then what has this last three weeks of crap been about. Why it takes you a week or more at a time to try and twist, and bastardise what was said and invent stuff that was not said in a bid to "win" an argument that is not exist is beyond me.

Mellor - That may be true, but it’s really no reason not to close the loophole.

Nobody argued it was. You made that assumption, accused me of it, I told you, you were inferring something that was not implied, and you still ran with it. HEre we are three weeks later still arguing the same redundant point.

Mellor - kinda baffled that anyone who argue otherwise and be in favour of rights for terrorists.

Once AGAIN, nobody did. This "snuck" is not working so perhaps move onto another.

Cass · 25-09-2021 12:52pm

Mellor - It’s counterintuitive but powering all these electric cars doesn’t add anything to demand. Cars are charged at night when demand is low.

Sorry, what! Powering electric vehicles doesn't add any demand to the grid?

Whether they're powered at night or during the day they will create a "demand". Otherwise they would not recharge. You either mean they would not increase daytime demand or that they would increase demand during an off-peak period which would not add an additional demand to the grid during peak hours, but they most certainly would create a demand regardless.

Studies from America have shown that if charging was done during "off-peak" hours (in other words managed correctly) and allowing for a service level of over a million EVs it would increase demand by 5-10%, but that would lead to a 25-30% increase on demand on the grid.

A European study has said if electric vehicle continue to "grow" in popularity that by 2050 34% of all electricity demand will be for the electric vehicle market/consumption. Such an increase will represent a 10% gorwth in demand if optimized charging times are adhered to but this percentage could grow if optimized charging times are not adhered to.

Mellor · 25-09-2021 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937023#Comment_117937023

lmfao, so poster can’t summarise pound made my others. Nice try, but no.

and no trying to drag posts out, I’m just not around as much to reply. I think I’m obliged to dance to anyone schedules.

yea, they are under the traffic act, but deal with separate elements. just like separate laws terrorism or immigration acts deal with different things.

So when she says future legislation will not prevent similar attacks (simialr meaning the same as this one) she means the ability to deport someone "immediately" will not stop some nutter (already a citizen, not know to police, etc) form carrying out an attack of this nature.

Which is what I referred to above. It would stop not some citizen extremist. That’s what Arden admitted.

Now look at your claim, you Cass, not the PM.

would not have prevented this attack then its not good legilsation

This attack. Not a future attack. Not the same thing. And you had the heck to question my grasp of English. Sigh.

Of course it won’t stop every knife attack. What a ridiculous benchmark to set.

Now you claiming you were implying it’s a pointless law. Ok, sure ;)

Simple question:

Should the loophole that allow this guy remain be closed, or is it a waste of time/pointless/(or what ever word you want).

Mellor · 25-09-2021 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936843#Comment_117936843

Obviously charging at night will increase the load on the grid at night. But that doesn’t create a demand for additional power stations, wind farms, etc - because the night load is well with capacity. It’s called off peak for a reason. That was your question, how do they power it. The power is already there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937112#Comment_117937112

Yes they don’t add any power demand if charged at night. You are confusing power and energy.

Obviously they are taking energy from the grid, that must come from somewhere. But that doesn’t mean an increase power demand. As I said, it’s counterintuitive. It’s not uncommon for people to know realise that.

Grizzly 45 · 25-09-2021 8:33pm

Obviously charging at night will increase the load on the grid at night. But that doesn’t create a demand for additional power stations, wind farms, etc - because the night load is well with capacity. It’s called off peak for a reason. That was your question, how do they power it. The power is already there.

Is there that much capacity ...ESB doesn't seem to think so. If it is this bad without the demand of X thousands of future electric vehicles plugging into the system. Better hurry up and get that French interconnector done lads....

Cant wait to see how you'll be charging anything with solar if it is at night,or how this place will work when we get,quite often windstill foggy days in Ireland during the winter months.

https://gript.ie/plans-to-prevent-electricity-blackouts-this-winter-abandoned/

Cass · 25-09-2021 10:18pm

Mellor - lmfao, so poster can’t summarise pound made my others. Nice try, but no.

Unintelligible.

Mellor - and no trying to drag posts out, I’m just not around as much to reply.

You've replied to others threads over the past week(s). So you're around.

Mellor - yea, they are under the traffic act

Thank you.

Mellor - but deal with separate elements. just like separate laws terrorism or immigration acts deal with different things

You're confusing yourself now as well as contradicting yourself. "Elements", "laws", "things". ?????

Mellor - It would stop not some citizen extremist. That’s what Arden admitted.........

................This attack. Not a future attack. Not the same thing

As you said above:

Mellor - Again you’re focusing on the semantics and not the point.

Good advice, for yourself.

Mellor - Now you claiming you were implying it’s a pointless law. Ok, sure ;)

Nope, once again you're inferring something not there and claiming I said something I never did. You said pointless. Yyou're the only one to say it. I never said it, and you even said as much above when you said it was implied, which I corrected you on by saying that was your inference, not my implication.

Mellor - Should the loophole that allow this guy remain be closed, or is it a waste of time/pointless/(or what ever word you want)

I never said pointless, you did. So its not what I want its what you want. I also never said it was a "waste of time". That is you paraphrasing again. My intial post simply re-iterated Arden's comment. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cass · 25-09-2021 10:37pm

Mellor - Yes they don’t add any power demand if charged at night. You are confusing power and energy.

By all means, enlighten me.

Mellor - Obviously they are taking energy from the grid, that must come from somewhere. But that doesn’t mean an increase power demand. As I said, it’s counterintuitive. It’s not uncommon for people to know realise that.

Obviously I'll have to wait for your explanation above so my thoughts may change based on your reply. However I'll go this route.

I'm going to use the word Electricity. Instead of "confusing" things with words like energy, power, etc. Its [electricity] generated in plants and imported from abroad. EVs run on electricity. The current "demand" (by demand I mean the required amount of electricity) to keeps the lights on in all homes, businesses, street lights, basically anything that uses electricity as well as charge the current level of EVs is "X" percent. With the addition of over a million EVs (estimated) by 2030 and the abolition of petrol and Diesel sales this number may increase dramatically after 2030, are you saying that the demand (by demand I mean the required amount of electricity) to do all the above (to keeps the "lights on" in all homes, businesses, street lights, basically anything that uses electricity as well as charge the current level of EVs) will not rise above "X" percent?

The articles/studies I referenced above say the opposite. Its why I ask.

Mellor · 26-09-2021 4:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939544#Comment_117939544

Yes, I’m around, but not around as much. Sorry if I’m not meeting your expected schedule.

Cass, It’s not something that’s a big deal, I just thought it was an odd rant. There don’t seem to be any logic to it.

Do you think it was a pointless law?

Or do you think it was necessary to close the loophole?

Mellor · 26-09-2021 4:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939137#Comment_117939137

There’s plenty of capacity at night. The real-time output, as well as daily max-min graphs is published. Night usage dropped to well under 50%. The maths involved is pretty basic. Easy to worked out how many cars this could support.

That article doesn’t mention electric cars. It does however mention data centres, which I mentioned above as being the issue. Data centres are on 24/7, so they do create a demand on power capacity. More data centres will need more power. They are the issue, not cars charged at night.

Mellor · 26-09-2021 5:24am

By all means, enlighten me.

it’s explained above I’m my previous two posts. Let me know if you still don’t understand and I’ll go run it.

I'm going to use the word Electricity. Instead of "confusing" things with words like energy, power, etc.

If power and energy are confusing it perhaps explains why you aren’t understanding. The difference between the two is key here.

Its [electricity] generated in plants and imported from abroad

It’s exported as well as imported. Overall we produce more than we use, so we’re a net exporter. We have the capacity to produce far more too if there was a country that needed it.

Very important for the future. But not related to what I’m saying about power.

The current "demand" (by demand I mean the required amount of electricity) to keeps the lights on in all homes, businesses, street lights, basically anything that uses electricity as well as charge the current level of EVs is "X" percent.

You are still mixing up two terms. Total electricity used is electrical energy. Electricity required to “keep the lights on” is electrical power.

Grizzly and I were talking about electrical power. ie Power stations required to provided electricity.

EV will use more electricity, that’s obvious. (People’s electricity bills increase).

I’m pointing out that cars are charged at night so they won’t require more power, which was the question, and is much less obvious. As evident by the fact you are doubting it so much.

Cass · 26-09-2021 12:51pm

Mellor - Cass, It’s not something that’s a big deal, Sorry if I’m not meeting your expected schedule

No need for apologies, I just thought it was odd you replied to others threads but not this one. Its not a schedule btw its the time frame bewteen posts. Makes it hard to keep track, but you're right its not a big deal and frankly I'm long past the point of caring or being interested in the topic.

Mellor - You are still mixing up two terms. Total electricity used is electrical energy. Electricity required to “keep the lights on” is electrical power.

I think I understand it now, so thanks for that.

Mellor - I’m pointing out that cars are charged at night so they won’t require more power, which was the question, and is much less obvious. As evident by the fact you are doubting it so much.

I'm not doubting it, I'm simply not educated enough on the subject. To me I only think of it in terms of electricity. For example you said we're a net exporter, yet we continue to import. Why is that? I understand that a net exporter is someone who exports more than they import, but to me this seems redundant. If we can export more than we import then why do we import either at all or to the extent we do? Could we simply stop exporting, reduce or eliminate import and be more self reliant and would this not bring down prices?

otmmyboy2 · 26-09-2021 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941112#Comment_117941112

The reason most countries have both imports and exports of electricity is usually because of supply at certain times.

Particularly countries with "green" energy sources, like wind and solar especially, need to import power when the wind is flat and its cloudy.

My guess is that is at least part of the case for us.

From what I've read self reliance wouldn't make much difference to electricity prices here, but lessening our reliance on fuels we import(oil, gas, even peat now) would bring down costs some.

But whether those savings would make it to the consumer, Ireland being what it is, is doubtful.

Even tax wise, for a change, non vehicle fuel wise we aren't terrible here. Prices would drop ~20% if there were no tax on it, but by comparison to a lot of eu countries that isn't terrible.

Cass · 26-09-2021 3:30pm

otmmyboy2 - Particularly countries with "green" energy sources, like wind and solar especially, need to import power when the wind is flat and its cloudy

Right. So I'm assuming this is a seasonal issue rather than daily weekly. IOW the Government don't "run down the shops on a Sunday morning" to get more electricity. They commit to importing/buying it from abroad during say Winter when wind/soalr may be down.

Is this the reason we import nuclear power from France. IOW its not a green source (in the traditional way we might think of green energy) and is more relaible so we use it "top up" during Winter and then during summer we have abundant green energy we can export and these exports outweigh what we bring in?

If so then, barring the obvious ban on nuclear plants, would it not make sense to invest what we pay for in imports into a plant of our own and eliminate the need to import at all?

Cass · 26-09-2021 3:33pm

It was the Green party that, if I'm remembering correctly, were strongly opposed to nuclear power and put the initial ban on building such a plant. So what is their concerns? Its a clean, zero emission, power source so other than all the uusal naff about the Irish Government messing it up, the Simpsons paradoies, what is their actual concern? Or are there other issues, political and financial, from keeping imports rather than building our own?

Birdnuts · 26-09-2021 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941294#Comment_117941294

Lobby groups for wind energy continually spun the lie that more wind energy would make power cheaper and secure supply - the past year has seen those chucks come back to roost(same for the UK,Germany etc.)

Cass · 26-09-2021 4:18pm

According to the seai, wind energy accounts for 85% of renewable energy and contributes 30% to the national grid. If that is the case, and if those numbers are true, then it seems at least for Ireland that wind turbines are working. So why the increase in prices?

tonysopprano · 26-09-2021 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941783#Comment_117941783

Just remember, for the greens Irish peat and briquettes BAD, imported peat and briquettes GOOD, Irish nuclear BAD, imported nuclear GOOD

Cass · 26-09-2021 5:21pm

Is that not down to "massaging" the figures. IOW we don't produce it so can claim our carbon footprint is down?

Grizzly 45 · 26-09-2021 6:07pm

It was the Green party that, if I'm remembering correctly, were strongly opposed to nuclear power and put the initial ban on building such a plant. So what is their concerns? It's a clean, zero-emission, power source so other than all the usual naff about the Irish Government messing it up, the Simpsons parodies, what is their actual concern? Or are there other issues, political and financial, from keeping imports rather than building our own?

Thinking from 40 plus years ago when we were talking Gen 2 power plants that were producing a lot more tonnage of nuclear waste than they are now in Gen 3 or Gen4 plants. Storage of that waste was shall we say not very environmentally friendly at that time.IE dumping it in the ocean or burying it in salt mines or the like. So that is probably a concern for the Irish govt...Who or where would we store the waste until it could be shipped out?

Their cause was helped by things like Gen 1 Windscale reactor accident /Sellafield reprocessing plant being handled so shoddily,3mile island and Chernobyl and somewhat Fukushima. Statistically, it is as safe as flying if not safer. We don't ban aircraft from landing in Ireland because there might be a chance of one crashing somewhere. Simply put this is the core of the argument for having a nuke free Ireland.[1] Two accidents caused by govt pressure to make deadlines in now long obsolent reactor designs and rule flaunting[Cherynobyl and Windscale] [2]A faulty mechanical valve and media panic [3mile island] and [4] A tsunami and [5] a shoddily run out of date facility with no proper oversight of any kind, and multiple coverups.[Sellafield].

On the Irish Govt side, this has influenced thinking, as well as where would you put it without massive NIMBYism, and also the security thereof which has to be armed. Every country, inc the UK has armed security,in the UK's case a separate police force[The UK Atomic Energy Police Force]that is tooled up. Maybe this is also part of why the Irish Govts don't want part of it? Too high in security cost/risk?

Grizzly 45 · 26-09-2021 6:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941896#Comment_117941896

Been an utter disaster for Denmark.They have quit putting up wind turbines in the Nth sea now for years. They had to buy hydropower off Norway when the wind isn't blowing at double the cost to make up the shortfall, and then sell their windpower back to Norway at half their production costs. Double win for Norway, and making Denmark one of the top three most expensive places for power in the EU. https://dailycaller.com/2016/05/13/windswept-denmark-says-wind-energy-has-become-too-expensive/ https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/uncategorized/denmarks-wind-power-experience-costs-and-consequences/

Grizzly 45 · 26-09-2021 6:40pm

Right. So I'm assuming this is a seasonal issue rather than daily weekly. IOW the Government don't "run down the shops on a Sunday morning" to get more electricity. They commit to importing/buying it from abroad during say Winter when wind/solar may be down.

Nope, it can be a daily issue, even an hourly issue, irrespective of the seasons. There is a misconception that Ireland with its strong winds and storms will produce a large amount of power. Wind turbines cant operate in winds over 35/40 kmh. What you need is a consistent wind speed or wind carpet,like in Denmark rather than force, like Ireland gets. Because of this "energy intermittency"...the grid cant load properly and grauntee a full power load.Ask Thyssen Krupp about this when Green energy failed for their power supplier in 2017 and destroyed a multi-million euro electric crucible with a 6ton load of molten metal

Is this the reason we import nuclear power from France? IOW it's not a green source (in the traditional way we might think of green energy) and is more reliable so we use it "top up" during Winter and then during summer we have abundant green energy we can export and these exports outweigh what we bring in?

The French interconnector isn't built yet. Possibly by 2026? We import our nuke power from the UK via NI or an interconnector from Wales.What the problem is for us is our gasfired stations were INOP as was Moneypoint. Moneypoint is up and running again, but gas prices are skyrocketing and we or the UK have no gas storage facilities of the size required to bulk buy this at low times for Winter usage,and we are in Ireland on the utterly wrong end of the EU supply chain.If Vladimir decides "Nyet Gaz" for the EU because Ukraine hasn't paid their bill or whatever, no gas for us here either. Hence the higher gas and lecckie bills for us all this Winter.

If so then, barring the obvious ban on nuclear plants, would it not make sense to invest what we pay for in imports into a plant of our own and eliminate the need to import at all?

Could be sorted very quickly by allowing the LNG plant to be built in the Shannon estuary, once you got rid of the purple crop haired ring nosed soap dodgers,NIMBYS and misc crusties objecting to it.🙄

Grizzly 45 · 26-09-2021 7:01pm

Coming from a German fam who votes CDU/CSU as traditionally as some families vote FF no matter what. I endorse this article 100% Good riddance to Eric Honecker's revenge on Germany! https://gript.ie/angela-merkel-should-not-be-missed/

Cass · 26-09-2021 7:35pm

Thats what I must have read, it was coming from France as in going to be instead of is.

Mellor · 27-09-2021 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941112#Comment_117941112

As Tommy said above, it’s about a supply at a given time, not just seasonal but hour by hour. Electricity isn’t like fuel energy that it is produced and stored*, it it produced as it’s used. Which means the grid needs to predict how much will be needed over the course of the day and fire up the power stations accordingly. But sometime a spike happens when we’re not generating enough and we need to borrow from the UK grid. Or they borrow from us.

As I said, the power drops to 40-50% at night. So the power stations turn down power so as not to waste excess. If 1 million EVs were on the road, and charging at night, they just need to turn down less. More power demands in the day (like data centres) will be the driver of more power stations.

Wind is good for free energy, especially when windy at night but you can’t turn it up when calm. Which is why an over reliance on wind is terrible imo, you need a controllable plant to balance it. Something you can turn up as needed.

*technically you can store in batteries. But they are massive, and expensive.

Grizzly 45 · 27-09-2021 2:59pm

Wind is good for free energy, especially when windy at night but you can’t turn it up when calm. This is why an overreliance on wind is terrible IMO, you need a controllable plant to balance it. Something you can turn up as needed.

The only Green fuel that fits the bill on this is Hydropower,and its not as environmentally friendly as made out to be either.[Ardnacrusha and the decline in salmon numbers since its construction is a great example].We can control water not the wind, and the other option is tidal power. Could be done on the Shannon Estuary,but again NIMBYism and crusties get in the way.

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Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

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