Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Cass

You did, but no harm done.

BattleCorp

What's absolutely stunning to me is the free ride that Biden is getting when compared to Trump.

I'm not a fan of the orange man but if he was still in charge during this Afghan sh1t-show there'd be wall to wall media coverage, he'd be blamed for everything from cancer to it's raining (or not raining), and there'd be over a million people out protesting on the streets of the US complaining about the disaster that he is presiding over.

Richard308

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117772952#Comment_117772952

Ok what part did i read wrong? Is that not your quote where you implied they wouldn’t fight as they’d no ammunition? Etc.

Cass

You seem to be splitting hairs or looking for an argument. Afraid you won't find one [argument] here so I'll leave you to it.

Cass

MODERATOR WARNING.

Playing the man, not the ball. Keep replies on topic. Further attempts to provoke aruments will be met with infraction/thread ban.

Cass

Biden just keeps on digging, so much so that CNN, MSNBC, ABC and other "left leaning" media have even had enough and are calling him out on his lies, bulls**t, deflections, and excuses.

• He claimed there was no Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, yet the director of national security says there are and also isis.
• He claimed Americans can just go to Kabul airport as he has an "agreement" with the taliban. Yet ABC and CNN reporters in Kabul have witnessed, reported on and even been the subject of beatings, harrassment and shown other Americans having their passports taken form them.
• In the one on one he said what happened would bound to happen and could not have happened any other way. When asked why he didn't remove personel first, then affilitates, then those entitled (and vetted) to go, and lastly the military while using them as security, he gave a rambling, incoherent "answer" and drifted off to another topic.
• The Uk is not without blame in this, but given it was an American lead mission their sudden and unannounced withdrawal left the UK and other allies without anywhere to go. So much so the UK Parliment has held biden contempt for not only his actions but according to some MPs his outright lies regarding the Afghan army and their "unwillingness" to fight. johnson also got humiliated and rightly so.
• In his presser today biden said he has seen/heard no condemnation from allies about his actions. Can the man not read a newspaper, watch TV, or is he (and I mean this sincerely) being sheltered from the real world? Are people insulating him from what is really going on?
• Biden fumbled his way through a "one on one" interview and to think what they showed was the best bits is scary. He showed no remorse, no apologies, and little regard for those that died falling form planes, and are dying trying to escape. Also no regard for those left behind while once again lying about how easy it is for anyone who wants to leave, to leave.
• Biden refuses to answer questions instead opting for podium speeches, and then turning his back (not for the first time) and leaving. Press, even his previous supporters, are getting fed up.

One CNN reporter, in Kabul, when told that Biden said this was not a failure responded live "if they don't consider this an utter failure, then I'd hate to see what they do consider a failure". Thats CNN by the way.

Cass

Seen an article the other day that holohan said he'll consider easing restrictions. Did anyone vote for this guy or can you tell me which constituency he ran in? That bit of sarcasm aside he said the latest data shows the younger people getting hit harder, yet the data from HIPE said since 2020 90 young people have been hospitalised. Reid said that more young are being referred to hospital, but only referred, not hospitalised.

Also what is the long term plan here? Britain removed all restrictions on Monday and our vaccinsation rate is higher yet Martin hinted at restrictions going on into next year. All the talk of herd immunity last year cited various figures, but even the highest number has been met and exceeded so what is the delay? Most organisations of note say this is not a fight and win, but learn to live situation, like the flu. IOW its here to stay so lockdowns and restirctions are eitehr redundant or here to stay forever, and if its the latter will people continue to eat this crap sandwich without complaint?

Look at the continuing conflciting advice. All Ireland finals this week and in September will allow up to 40,000 to attend. Yet electric picnic, usually at the end of September, were told no. Its all outdoors too, and all data says outdoor meetings account for less than 1% of infections. Couple that with such a high vaccination rate, and it leaves me wondering what is the "science" behind these decisions?

Don't get me wrong i'm no upset about Electric picnic, all it does it block the roads and town for the weekend so I won't miss it.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770656#Comment_117770656

Do you have a source for the 9 to 2 ratio?

it’s seams very specific ratio, I’m not sure we could every pinpoint something with that accuracy. I also don’t believe it takes remotely those numbers either.

A group of 6 men captured the city of Belgrade in WW2. The city surrendered. Their army (of thousands) stood down.

You can’t equate man to man in those things. An army of guys collecting a pay cheque vrs a force of fanatics.

I do agree the Afghan army dropped arms and fled though.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117772958#Comment_117772958

I’d imagine a large part of the lack of finger pointing is down to the fact it’s a rare case of republicans and democrats being aligned. They both want to get out of there. The GOP can hardly criticise the “deal” with the Taliban. When it was a Trump deal.

Richard308

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117784070#Comment_117784070

Yes there’s plenty of documents on it. Just first one. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?746807-Force-Ratios-and-the-3-1-Rule-Debate

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786068#Comment_117786068

That says 3 to 1. Which is the traditional ratio quoted and the one I am familiar with. You claimed 9 to 2, which is significantly higher, 50% higher.

But even at 3 to 1, you are misapplying it. The 3 to 1 comes from the idea that a dug-in, fortified defender can hold off 3 attackers. It should be obvious that there is an advantage in defense;

Two trenches with 12 men in each, 100metres apart in a field. One side is tasked with climbing out, crossing no man's land, and taking the opposite trench. The other staying put and defending from cover. All things being equal, would I would expect the defenders to win that engagement. I know what side I'd want to be on. Even if the defenders only had 5 or 6 men, should be straight forward. But 2 or 3 men, and they're odds slip. That's the 3 to 1 ratio.

But it applies on a engagement level. Not a total level. The Taliban were out numbered 3 to 1, so in a all out tete-a-tete, the Afghans should have blown them away. But this wasn't an all out battle. A larger army spread out to defend a broader area, could be defeated at individual waypoints and a force that is totally smaller in size. Numbers are one part of the picture.

As an example, you are the data in the first post you linked to:

[img]http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/CAA-Battle-Outcome-vs.-Force-Ratio.png[/img]

When the attackers outnumber the defenders 3/1. They won 74% of the time.

When the defenders outnumbered the attackers, from 3/2 to 3+/1, the defenders only won 50% of the time. Hardly uncommon for the smaller force to win, in that sample of nearly 600 engagements.

So no. the smaller not NEED a numerical advantage of 9 to 2, or 3 to 1. A 3x numerical advantage simple makes it probably that they will win. It is still very possible for the smaller side to win.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117784605#Comment_117784605

Yeah, the deal is one thing. I can understand they'd both want out of Afghanistan.

The clusterfcuk of a withdrawal is where I have the real problem. It was carried out 100% under Biden's watch. Trump can't be blamed in any way for how that part of it was organised.

I think if the Trump/Biden roles were reversed, the Media and Joe Public wouldn't be acting the way they are now.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117792361#Comment_117792361

I'll preface this by saying I'm not in anyway across the logistics of withdrawing a force of that size. I don't know what is optimum. But from this vantage point, I don't see any possible way that a withdrawal could have happened that wasn't a clusterfcuk. Pull out quickly and suddenly, and the standing army are left largely scrambling holding their flutes. A slow, staged withdrawal, sees the power balance shift slowly and predictably - until the last fraction of US forces left are is a really compromised spot verses a the Taliban (who are not bothered about sticking to the terms of the deal).

Maybe there is a really obvious optimal way to do it. But it that is the case, why didn't the military experts making this decision do that. And we should be really clear on that. The president is the commander in chief, ultimately signing the order. But people don't actually believe that they have any real input in military strategizing. Actually on that note, the high ranking military chiefs and advisors who oversaw the deal, are the same officials in office that oversaw the withdrawal. Theres really no logical reason to believe what happened this month is any different to what was planned last year.

So what exactly are you criticizing, specifically what actions, or in-actions of the Biden administration? I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Trump had no part it in. The wheels have been in motion for 18-24 months. This is a new plan that Biden made up recently. In fact, two months ago Trump was claiming it was all his plan that couldn't be stopped.

Would Trump get more of a rinsing in the left wing media than Biden is currently getting. Possibly.

By the same token, the right wing media, pro republican and/or pro military observers didn't say a word when Trump negotiated with the Taliban. Do you honestly think that if Biden did the same they same pass would be given to Joe?. Not a fcuking hope. Negotiating with terrorists, specifically the terrorists that caused 9/11, there would be all sorts of soap boxing.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117792761#Comment_117792761

I'll start with an easy point.

The Taliban didn't cause 9/11. That was Al Qaeda. They allowed Bin Laden and a pile of Saudi Arabians shelter in their country but they didn't cause the 9/11 attacks.

You ask what I'm criticising:

I'm criticising a situation where the airport, the main evacuation point wasn't secured.

I'm criticising a situation that caused/allowed people to cling onto an aeroplane and fall to their death from it when it was in the air.

I'm criticising a situation where translators who were promised safety were left high and dry with the knowledge that the Taliban will probably kill them and their families.

I could go on and on and on. It was never going to be a pain free withdrawal, but it certainly could have been handled better.

My main point though is how easy of a ride Biden is getting compared to Trump. I'm not a Trump supporter by the way, just pointing out media and general public hypocrisy. When anybody, anywhere, wearing a Make America Great Again hat did anything remotely bad, it was the orange man's fault. Biden or his minions (the military) don't seem to be held to that same standard of account.

Richard308

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117791555#Comment_117791555

I was using an over simplified version. Which was broken down a nine man section can expect to overcome a two man trench, armed with similar ordnance, similar motivation and training. With time to prepare defences.

there have been documented cases where two mean have defeated a full platoon of 31 men. Armed only with rifles against an attacking force armed with anti tank, heavy machine guns and 60 mm mortars.

its all relative, and each context is different

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117793165#Comment_117793165

Al Qaeda and the Taliban are not the same thing. But they are not mutually exclusive.

Al Queda was a terrorist organisation heading by Bin Laden, who funded and order the attack. True.

The Taliban were political power running Afghanistan. There’s really obvious reason to separate a political wing and a terrorist wing. That doesn’t clear them if responsibility.

Bin Laden was convicted of terrorist bombings and murder years prior. Multiple times his extradition was requested. The Taliban repeatedly refused. They protected him, and facilitated the attacks. They could have stopped it, they choose not to.They also refused to hand him over after the attacks. When they finally conceded, he was gone. Conveniently :rolleyes:

Not sure what your angle is here. The Taliban are good guys really? It’s not them, it’s the others? Regardless, what they did or didn’t do, the point was that had the Dems negotiated with them, they would have got the same pass. If Biden freed terrorists, I don’t think he get a pass from the right that Trimp got.

Yes, Trump and Biden get treated differently, by both sides. It’s hypocritical to complain about one side treat one differently, when they both treat both differently.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117793165#Comment_117793165

Who was supposed to secure the airport? Many of the locals trying to flee where the police and military who were supposed to be the security.

Those climbing on to the plane. Who do you think is fleeing Kabul?

The Afghan military are multiples the size of forces pulling out. They are the ones supposed to be providing security. Fleeing wasn’t anyone’s plan.

Similarly with the translators, if the Trump administration promised them safety. Which agreed method of safety did the Biden administration fail to provide?

Biden’s “minions” that fcuked this up, we’re Trumps minions planning it 12 months ago. Same people. Same plan. Same result.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117794440#Comment_117794440

The quote ratio is 3 to 1, not 9 to 2 though.

And sure, there are cases where defenders have out lasted much bigger forces. But similarly, the opposite is true. 6 attacks with only personal arms, capturing a city with a force of thousands.

The point is it can go either way. Saying the Taliban needed 9 to 2 to overcome a defending force is not true.

Richard308

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796944#Comment_117796944

Ok, the ratio to defend according to the us military is 1:3 and the ratio to attack is 3:1. So who wins in those ratios?

Zxthinger

How are ye finding the new platform?

The old one was a lot better in my opinion..

Mississippi.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117820466#Comment_117820466

Not as user friendly

Much less traffic on it

Keeps logging me out and then not recognising my password , I have to click forgot password every time

Feisar

As a whole I'm not liking it however will hang on here as a place to chew the fat with other shooters in Ireland. Accurate Shooter/Snipers Hide are grand however it's nice to chat to lads in the same boat as myself.

Mississippi.

I'll continue to use it allright,

It's kind of depressing looking at some of them foreign based forums when you see what they have available to them

Cass

Mellor - So what exactly are you criticizing, specifically what actions, or in-actions of the Biden administration?

Just reading back through some posts and from watching the TV over the last week or more I have to ask what part of this withdrawal was done right?

I see the current administration constantly cite Trump as the cause. First of I find it funny that biden in his first three week sin office undone over 60 EOs of Trump to "erase" his presence, but this is the thing he could not alter/amend/change. This is true from the point he [Trump] negotiated the date, which biden extended however Trump is now not the President so anyting that happens after January 22nd is on Biden. Of course the blame game solves nothing so look at what happened.

• Troops withdrawn first.
• Civilians left and told to go to airport
• Civilians attacked on the way to airport.
• Bien adminstration says Taliban have given a promise people will not be stopped or harmed.
• Reporters on the ground show live images of people being beaten, pistol whipped, and having their passports taken/destroyed on the way to airport.
• Biden admin tells people NOT to go to the airport, that they'll contact them to make arrangements
• During all this an estimated $85 BILLION Dollars worth of weaponary, helicoptors, drones, APCs, Humvees, and other military equipement is seized by the taliban.

Then onto the last week alone:

• People begging to be rescued, and the biden admin saying they are doing everything they can, yet reporters on site (in Afghan) are saying they have not been contacted at all.
• People that had no passes or "VISAs" let go, but those on the list to be withdrawn left behind.
• Biden admin then moves the narrative from we're doing all we can to its their (the people left behind) own fault. IOW victim blaming.
• White house press secretary says they don't negotiate with terrorists................. while negotiating with terrorists. Not to mention arming them.
• Biden the refusing to answer questions on Afghanistan. When he does its only pre-approved questions from re-approved reporters.
• Biden stumbles and mutters his way through press conferences looking confused and lost. Says the people falling from planes was four days ago as though four days is somehow the statute of limitations for being outraged. Seriously this is verging on elder abuse.
• Intel (British and American) warns of terrorist attack being imminent.
• Attacks occurs and 13 service men are killed along with some 40 civilians and reportedly 20 or so taliban.
• Biden promises swift vengence, while running the in other direction.
• More attacks promised via official channels.
• At Dover airforce base Biden cannot keep it together long enough to honour the men arriving home, and LOOKS AT HIS WATCH as though its an incoveinience to him to be there.
• Kamala harris is nowhere to be seen. Off on an Asian tour while the administration is burning around her, until she is told to come home.
• Hundreds if not thousands now left behind.
• Service dogs, both military and contractors, left in crates at airforce base to die.

There has not been one point in this whole debalce where Biden acted Presidential, with common sense, with determination or a sense to protect those he should be protecting. Yes I understand that there is a huge machine of a system working in the background, but he is the so called commander in chief and responsible for the failures as well as any victories.

In the last week he has said, at the podium, that he was instructed to do this, instructed not to do that, that he would get in trouble for this and that. Who is the "they" he keeps referring to and who is actually controlling who he talks to, what he says to the point that he cannot coherently form a response to a question that falls outside of what is on his cheat cards?

Again this is not an attack based on partisan politics. I'm neither dem nor rep and had Trump been in office overseeing this farce I'd be asking the same questions, but at no point can anyone with even a lick of common sense (military experience is not requisite to basic understanding) can say with straight face or in all honesty that this was anything other than an abject failure of both administration and the President.

Cass

In home news has anyone noticed how NPHET are chaging the rules on what can and cannot be done based on the actions, and violations, of the Tánaiste? Seems whenever he breeches coid restrictions/guidelines the rules magically change, and retrospectively so, to make what he done a "boo-boo" rather than a €2,000 fineable offence that us mere motrals must stump up?

Cass

Reports also in the news of all restrictions ending by October 22nd.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827362#Comment_117827362

Apart from still walking about with your face muzzle for the near future/indefinately.. Whats also the betting NONE of this Covid legislation will be repealed off the statue books either,and like the offences against the state act,will be renewed in perpetuity?

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117828175#Comment_117828175

I'd love to know what benefit the masks have been.

Grizzly 45

Add to the list of sleepy Joes messes.

Refusing to allow either civilian or military contractors or personnel to work or service the critical air support of the Afghan army that could have made all the difference to stop the advance. The Afghan army has been modelled on the US army where air cover plays a critical role. Without air cover, they weren't going to do much of a fight.

The poor SOBs were trying to fix and replace and update avionics electronics with Zoom calls to the State bound technicians. Try working on a 5 million dollar Blackhawk engine assembly like that...So at least the slight good thing out of that will be the avionics and engines and the like will be high tech junk sitting on a runway within 12 months. That's if they don't crash land the rest already. They have apparently belly-flopped 3or4 of the Blackhawks so far.

According to the New York times of 26th July The Taliban were in contact with the US govt, and offered them control of Kabul until today! As they knew it would descend into a lawless panicked mess that they couldn't police and would have allowed an orderly evacuation. The Biden admin categorically refused this offer. end result there are still over 5thousand US citizens stuck in this utter clusterfuk and having to rely on their own initiatives to get home and out of this situation as the US govt has dumped them.

The US and the West no longer "own the night" as that state of the art NV and thermal gear will soon be reverse-engineered and mass-produced by China and Russia. Not to mind the ECM countermeasures and surveillance drones. Think of it this way lads.Abdul Abu the goat herder in Khander is now better equipped in night vision and thermal equipment, that we would have to drop at least 7Gs to own here and do a BS load of paperwork to import and own,as well as with a new M4 assault rifle,that we could only dream of owning...And the senile moron in the White House is still braying on about gun control,and that you need nukes and F15s to take down a govt...

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117828175#Comment_117828175

There is an "end time" of november, iirc, for the end of the current legislation so if its renewed again they'll want to have a good reason.