Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

listermint · 24-09-2021 2:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932581#Comment_117932581

I'd be under the entire impression that is exactly what Johnson asked and specifically probably a little two or three month deal. Give me a dig out on the Christmas meat please just to keep the peasants happy 'you know yourself bolso' etc etc.

Johnson only deals on immediately what's in front of him and not future. He sees losing face over Christmas shortages as a crisis. And not the actual crisis of shortages that is going on. So if he can pander to people on the Christmas meat he buys himself time.

Seth Brundle · 24-09-2021 2:48pm

Another U-turn. I wonder if many will take Johnson up on his new visa? Will this somehow make it more cost effective for a trucker to deliver to GB and return home empty?

https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

Seth Brundle · 24-09-2021 2:59pm

Following on from the above...

3 hours ago, Grant Shapps was interviewed by Kay Burley and he claimed that whilst ballerinas would be eligible for the new short term visas, HGV drivers would not...

https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1441352334035017728

breezy1985 · 24-09-2021 3:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933189#Comment_117933189

If it becomes a choice between the Tories and Tesco who need their shelves stocked the Daily Mail and the rest will pick Tesco every time

Retr0gamer · 24-09-2021 3:34pm

Aren't visa's the least of their worries? Isn't the reason that they are screwing themselves out of money because they can't pick up a delivery for the return trip so doesn't make financial sense and that's a direct result of Brexit?

Strazdas · 24-09-2021 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933887#Comment_117933887

Yes, I'm sure I've seen haulage experts warn that visas won't solve the problems at all : it's just a sticking plaster.

Nody · 24-09-2021 3:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933639#Comment_117933639

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933887#Comment_117933887

Companies can hire EU drivers to do domestic delivery; it's not intended to help with the import issues etc. That is the definition of short term fix (not enough drivers to deliver to stores = we need domestic drivers) which is exactly how Boris does things. The issues that are more long term related such as import issues etc. is not a problem now.

Retr0gamer · 24-09-2021 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933921#Comment_117933921

How much domestic delivery is there though compared to export? I imagine domestic delivery is way less lucrative as export.

Nody · 24-09-2021 3:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933951#Comment_117933951

The issue is currently Tesco et al can't get food from farms to butcher, butcher to warehouse and warehouse to stores leaving shelves empty. Same with Shell not getting fuel from plant to forecourts etc. That's what gives Boris bad press atm; empty shelves in stores and queues to forecourts (or worse forecourts closing!). It got nothing to do with how lucrative it is; there's simply not enough drivers and hence they want to import some "temporary" (that's going to be permanent) relief. The stores in turn hope they can get away with paying less than their UK counterparts ('cause those Polish drivers will work for less which is another key driver). For Boris that's all there is; current bad press goes away; Boris has "solved" the problem as far as he's concerned.

Quin_Dub · 24-09-2021 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933887#Comment_117933887

That was my understanding as well.

Pre-Brexit - A Truck driver from Ireland/France/Germany or wherever would drive the container from Source to Destination so no local driver was needed.

No though as I have read , the overseas drivers aren't coming with the containers , they are dropping them at the port on their side as the driver doesn't want to get caught up in all the paper-work along with their being much less stuff to export back.

So now the UK need loads more drivers to bring stuff from Dover to Manchester or whatever.

Nody · 24-09-2021 4:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934045#Comment_117934045

Mixing the types of deliveries I'm afraid. Previously you'd have truck from Germany go to Tesco warehouse with cheese; drop it off and go to another company and pick up a new load of British lamb to take back to Austria before returning home. The return leg is now not really feasible due to the new custom rules which means your truck is likely to get stuck for multiple days due to customs. As the duration is not known (and the compensation is limited) it's simply not worth the risk to have your truck standing there. This truck driver would never pick up a load from the Tesco warehouse to deliver to a local Tesco store before turning back to leave UK and then go home.

What's missing now is the locally hired Tesco store drivers that work domestically only driving Warehouse to local store with deliveries. The reason the numbers have dropped of drastically is really two fold; first of all Covid and secondly visa issues for foreign truck drivers. 14k truck drivers left before jan 1st 2021 but only about 600 returned and this is a combination of covid, new tax rules and visas basically. UK now suffers from 13.4k drivers missing from their roosters and they have not had any new drivers being allowed to do the test (due to covid) for 18 months or so. Hence; reduced driver base due to people going home + no new drivers + higher need for domestic drivers for port to store etc. = shortage of domestic drivers. This has been an issue growing for years but the availability of EU drivers helped plug the hole and let the companies get away with paying **** money for the job. This meant UK drivers did not bother taking those jobs rather doing higher earning jobs (such as international delivery; special delivery ala fuel tanker etc.) leaving the cheap foreign drivers do those drives. And now those drivers left and did not come back the huge gaping hole suddenly appeared that no one could have guessed (yes that's sarcasm). The proposal that's being discussed is to fix this issue by trying to reduce the some requirements for the visa; I'd guess salary as the salary may not be high enough for a normal visa (esp. if they go to India etc. to recruit instead) to allow them to import more drivers. Fixes nothing really with the first point but works as a quick fix for the second point from a visibility perspective of empty shelves.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-09-2021 5:58pm

This link from 2016 compared numbers of qualified and employed drivers back then.

80,000 people in the 25-44 age group with a then current Driver CPC who were not currently working as truck drivers.

90,000 individuals in the 25-34 age group without a current Driver CPC. All they required was a week in a classroom without any test or examination, and they too could get behind the wheel of a truck.

There are about 600,000 people holding LGV cat C (rigid truck) or cat C+E (articulated lorry) licences in the UK who do not currently drive trucks for a living.

There is no driver shortage in the UK. There is a massive shortage of people prepared to put up with the pay and conditions and abuse and responsibility and out of pocket expenses. And IR35 has closed off the 'self employed' loophole.

20silkcut · 24-09-2021 6:41pm

Heard anecdotal evidence from a truck driver one time that Britain is not a very truck driver friendly country in comparison to other countries ( which are not fantastic either) From poor truck stop facilities to being treated aggressively by residents and other road users particularly on the more narrow roads.

Definitely it would make you think that truck driving is not a highly regarded profession in Britain that they could be so blasé to allow a situation like this develop. And there does seem to be a lack of appreciation for the link between the big behemoth on the road and the food on the shelves.

Strazdas · 24-09-2021 6:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934581#Comment_117934581

Remember that situation last Christmas at Dover where hundreds of EU drivers were treated appallingly and left dumped at the side of the road for days and with no facilities?. The local Sikh community generously brought them food. That was widely reported at the time and must have done huge reputational damage.

eternalblame · 24-09-2021 7:06pm

Queues at petrol stations. I guess this is what 'taking back control' looks like

Skygord · 24-09-2021 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934045#Comment_117934045

Not only the overseas registered operators delivering from EU to UK, but the cabotage rules meant that the truck of the EU-registered haulage operator could do up to 3 UK-UK drops on the same trip before returning home; this meant that some UK-UK deliveries were done by trucks of EU-registered haulage operators - if they now aren't doing the inbound deliveries into the UK, then they ALSO aren't doing any of the cabotage runs within the UK too (also if they DO go, the number of cabotage runs has reduced from 3 to 2, but the bigger issue is they are not going as much, as the added UK-unique delays/paperwork make it simpler to just do runs within the EU).

breezy1985 · 24-09-2021 7:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934673#Comment_117934673

Well at least there will be no big trucks in the queue

listermint · 24-09-2021 9:45pm

What specifically would make a driver want to go / come back to the UK though that's better or different from what they've being working at in Europe ... How does this visa waiver actually urge anyone to arrive.

Strazdas · 24-09-2021 9:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935327#Comment_117935327

I guess the only thing that would tempt them is if the salary was through the roof. But the UK finds itself in a terrible pickle : created a hostile environment for EU drivers and made them feel disliked and unwanted. Temporary visas are not going to undo the damage caused by Brexiteers and Leave voters. Aside from that, it looks like the UK based work would be too much hassle and inconvenient (paperwork and delays etc), even if they were inclined to do it.

listermint · 24-09-2021 9:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935368#Comment_117935368

Yes that's my thoughts exactly. A temp visa which will cost money. Relatively high rent and cost of living that has shot up inflation and an unforeseen future.

What's the point...

roosterman71 · 24-09-2021 10:12pm

This is the best analysis I've read about the waiver for HGV drivers so far

https://twitter.com/boucherhayes/status/1441498273219416064?s=20

Strazdas · 24-09-2021 10:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935389#Comment_117935389

I notice that Grant Shapps guy is still going on about EU drivers undercutting 'domestic' drivers in terms of wages and suggesting he's not entirely keen on the idea of the temporary visas. He's hardly doing anything to sell the idea or making EU drivers feel welcome.

ancapailldorcha · 24-09-2021 10:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935368#Comment_117935368

I don't know. I feel like if you've the training and skillset, there's little reason to move to the UK. The wages might be inflated now but that's unlikely to last long enough to justify the move IMO to a country that's economically immolated itself partly because of immigration.

eternalblame · 24-09-2021 11:00pm

It could be a cold, cold Christmas ....

Strazdas · 24-09-2021 11:51pm

Latest is that No. 10 say they will "allow" in 5000 migrant workers on temporary visas but that these visas will be "very strictly time limited".

listermint · 25-09-2021 12:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935971#Comment_117935971

No the statement was even more hilarious than that.

No one's going there to work .

https://mobile.twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1441528886542704641

Strazdas · 25-09-2021 12:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936009#Comment_117936009

The last paragraph is absolute nonsense. Every large economy needs millions of low skilled workers. Also, when was the UK ever a 'high skilled, high wage' economy? They have a huge working class cohort and always have done. This is pure fantasy stuff.

Nody · 25-09-2021 12:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935538#Comment_117935538

For an EU driver probably not a whole lot; for an Indian/African/Asian etc. driver the decision may look very different (yes I know the deal is suppose to be EU drivers but I'm quite certain Boris will expand that when they can't recruit enough to protect Christmas) ...

pixelburp · 25-09-2021 5:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936009#Comment_117936009

Jesus the last paragraph is cloud cuckoo land. Oh Britain is just going to magically pivot to a High Wage, High Skill economy? That's nice, totally achievable; someone should tell Sharon working the tils in Asda, or Jim cycling 100km a day for deliveroo orders, they're about to earn High Wages on these sunny uplands. When the adults in the room are operating with this degree of delusion, what hope for the country?

Dunt's followup tweet gets to the nub of the British Exceptionalism driving this entire sordid chapter. I'm sure some will take up the offer - but hard to see if the critical mass required will take the leap. Still, no doubt the spin doctors will be out in force applauding the plucky dozens of foreign Johnnie's helping out Global Britain feed and supply its population.

It's the product of a culture which can only see immigrants as desperate hordes who'll come rushing in as soon as you open the door. Lucky them, to come in and work in **** conditions before getting flung out again.

rock22 · 25-09-2021 7:10am

I wonder how much preparation our own government is doing around this. I see MM predicting shortages around Christmas here too.

There s still an awful lot of goods we consume that is still routed through UK. And any shortage there, or blockage in the supply chain will have a knock on affect on us .

Can the government direct that good from rest of EU to us should not leave the EU, i.e. not be exported to UK and then reimported to us again?

20silkcut · 25-09-2021 8:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936278#Comment_117936278

after the vaccine debacle the government here would want to be very wary. The Tories would have no qualms about nabbing our HGV drivers or drivers destined for here. The EU need to counter any attempts to nab drivers as the Tories would take great pleasure at leaving the EU short of drivers for their own gain.

Cody montana · 25-09-2021 9:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936488#Comment_117936488

Do you think they’ll implement the checks soon?

It would just add to the chaos.

eternalblame · 25-09-2021 10:08am

"Heat or Eat", could be the choice for many with rocketing fuel and food costs.

Nody · 25-09-2021 10:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936488#Comment_117936488

It's already been confirmed as postponed to January 2022 (and I don't see that date going live either...).

Christy42 · 25-09-2021 10:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936331#Comment_117936331

Indeed. That is what the temporary visa for HGV drivers is aimed at. Of course they are saying that this is a Europe wide problem so are effectively asking for drivers to come from an area they claim does not have drivers....

ancapailldorcha · 25-09-2021 11:53am

Apparently, the petrol station at the Asda beside my house has shut down.

The flaw in the visas for HGV drivers idea is that they actually want to come back when the shortage also exists in Europe. There was a hefty xenophobic element to the Brexit campaign and now there are severe delays at the border. These issues don't exist in Europe so it's hard to see the visa attracting many people.

20silkcut · 25-09-2021 11:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936278#Comment_117936278

How much incentive is there for a European truck driver to deliver direct to Ireland via Cherbourg . It’s a long trip and would there be much opportunities for bringing a load back from here?

surely the likes of the Dairy/ meat industry would have plenty of loads going to go direct to Europe.

Sam Russell · 25-09-2021 12:43pm

The Cherbourg - Rosslaire route lends itself to shipping just the trailer and a different driver takes it after it lands. It saves 24 hours of HGV driver time, and 500 km of fuel.

With the current situation in the UK, I would have thought there was no real disadvantage for much of the freight coming from or going to Europe.

listermint · 25-09-2021 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936928#Comment_117936928

Erm.. the haulage firms here are inside the SM and CU and would have those operations sown up both sides so this isn't a case of random EU truck driver. The EU truck driver works for the Irish haulier without the restrictions across the water.

Strazdas · 25-09-2021 1:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936919#Comment_117936919

The Brexiteers are still banging on about 'EU workers driving down UK wages' and apparently many within the Cabinet are very unhappy with the idea of offering temporary visas to EU workers - they see it as a fundamental breach of Brexit.

It's difficult to see how they can make their visa scheme work against this backdrop. Still talking about EU citizens being a burden and making it clear they are unwelcome.

RobMc59 · 25-09-2021 1:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937178#Comment_117937178

Having spoken to a number of British hgv drivers on this subject they maintain wages for UK drivers were rising at a reasonable rate until an influx of mainly Eastern European drivers who were attracted by the pay in comparison to their own countries.Now the majority of them have returned to their own countries through a combination of brexit and covid.The proposed relaxation of visa rules obviously isn't sufficient incentive to return to the UK imo(I also heard stories of how poorly many of the EU drivers were treated,poor facilities compared to the Continent).

I have also heard haulage companies are that desperate they are offering eye watering incentives/salaries.

To me,as a British person,the most important thing coming out of all this is it appears that its dawning on the public(and even UK press) that all this is mainly a result of brexit.

listermint · 25-09-2021 1:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937307#Comment_117937307

On the flip side. Same UK HGV drivers are no over worked, retiring and suffering from the same loss of goods that everyone else is suffering from . Cracking a nut with a lump hammer as they say ..

breezy1985 · 25-09-2021 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937307#Comment_117937307

Wages were increasing across the board in jobs that both attracted and didn't attract migrant workers. We had a boom in the 90s followed by a bust which is why wages went up then stopped.

These HGV drivers you say you spoke to are only regurgitating the usual nonsense of having to find some enemy to blame

Strazdas · 25-09-2021 2:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937307#Comment_117937307

Any fall in wages was caused solely by UK employers. The EU migrant workers didn't decide their pay rates. As ever, there seems to be a hint of blaming the EU or EU citizens for the actions of greedy / lousy British employers.

The Brexiteers thinking that leaving the EU would somehow 'solve' the problems doesn't appear to be working out either. It seems the entire British haulage industry was run badly for many years, both by the hauliers themselves and by the British government.

RobMc59 · 25-09-2021 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937407#Comment_117937407

The UK drivers weren't blaming other drivers,they appeared to blame the companies for wage stagnation and mentioned how poor the facilities are/were here for drivers,especially compared to the Continent,which is hardly an incentive to EU drivers.

I wouldn't see a relaxing of visa rules as an instant remedy anyway even if lucrative salaries are being offered,any increase in drivers would probably take months.I wouldn't be surprised if the possibility of army drivers isn't being explored.

breezy1985 · 25-09-2021 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937665#Comment_117937665

Nope you clearly insinuated that they blamed an influx of EU drivers and I am obviously not the only one picked up on that.

God help the British pedestrian if the army are involved given their history of collateral damage

RobMc59 · 25-09-2021 2:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937683#Comment_117937683

It's not the fault of EU drivers if salaries are better in the UK compared to their own .

I'd also say(as much as it pains me)I hope the situation remains a problem the rest of the year and affects Christmas because that's the only way people will turn on the tories.

breezy1985 · 25-09-2021 3:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937720#Comment_117937720

You are such an untrustworthy poster. These drivers you claim to have talked to blame an influx of EU drivers so stop trying to go back on what you said

ancapailldorcha · 25-09-2021 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937178#Comment_117937178

I don't buy it. The drive down wages thing is a fiction to justify hostility and xenophobia. It's literally the only context where conservatives seem to care about wages. The toilet paper submarine that is Brexit has just been deployed and it's showing the resilience you'd expect. They're in for a rough ride.

It still gets me that people voting to eliminate their own rights at the behest of kleptocrats is something that has not just happened here but been defended constantly.

Strazdas · 25-09-2021 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937840#Comment_117937840

It's definitely a peculiar argument. How many people in Britain have been 'directly' impacted by large numbers of eastern European workers driving down their own wages? It sounds like a concocted excuse to hate on the EU and European workers by xenophobes not even impacted by any of it.

Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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