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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,645 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    I'd be under the entire impression that is exactly what Johnson asked and specifically probably a little two or three month deal. Give me a dig out on the Christmas meat please just to keep the peasants happy 'you know yourself bolso' etc etc.


    Johnson only deals on immediately what's in front of him and not future. He sees losing face over Christmas shortages as a crisis. And not the actual crisis of shortages that is going on. So if he can pander to people on the Christmas meat he buys himself time.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,913 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Another U-turn. I wonder if many will take Johnson up on his new visa? Will this somehow make it more cost effective for a trucker to deliver to GB and return home empty?

    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,913 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Following on from the above...

    3 hours ago, Grant Shapps was interviewed by Kay Burley and he claimed that whilst ballerinas would be eligible for the new short term visas, HGV drivers would not...




  • Registered Users Posts: 24,418 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    If it becomes a choice between the Tories and Tesco who need their shelves stocked the Daily Mail and the rest will pick Tesco every time



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,819 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Aren't visa's the least of their worries? Isn't the reason that they are screwing themselves out of money because they can't pick up a delivery for the return trip so doesn't make financial sense and that's a direct result of Brexit?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,038 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Yes, I'm sure I've seen haulage experts warn that visas won't solve the problems at all : it's just a sticking plaster.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Companies can hire EU drivers to do domestic delivery; it's not intended to help with the import issues etc. That is the definition of short term fix (not enough drivers to deliver to stores = we need domestic drivers) which is exactly how Boris does things. The issues that are more long term related such as import issues etc. is not a problem now.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,819 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    How much domestic delivery is there though compared to export? I imagine domestic delivery is way less lucrative as export.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    The issue is currently Tesco et al can't get food from farms to butcher, butcher to warehouse and warehouse to stores leaving shelves empty. Same with Shell not getting fuel from plant to forecourts etc. That's what gives Boris bad press atm; empty shelves in stores and queues to forecourts (or worse forecourts closing!). It got nothing to do with how lucrative it is; there's simply not enough drivers and hence they want to import some "temporary" (that's going to be permanent) relief. The stores in turn hope they can get away with paying less than their UK counterparts ('cause those Polish drivers will work for less which is another key driver). For Boris that's all there is; current bad press goes away; Boris has "solved" the problem as far as he's concerned.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    That was my understanding as well.

    Pre-Brexit - A Truck driver from Ireland/France/Germany or wherever would drive the container from Source to Destination so no local driver was needed.

    No though as I have read , the overseas drivers aren't coming with the containers , they are dropping them at the port on their side as the driver doesn't want to get caught up in all the paper-work along with their being much less stuff to export back.

    So now the UK need loads more drivers to bring stuff from Dover to Manchester or whatever.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody



    Mixing the types of deliveries I'm afraid. Previously you'd have truck from Germany go to Tesco warehouse with cheese; drop it off and go to another company and pick up a new load of British lamb to take back to Austria before returning home. The return leg is now not really feasible due to the new custom rules which means your truck is likely to get stuck for multiple days due to customs. As the duration is not known (and the compensation is limited) it's simply not worth the risk to have your truck standing there. This truck driver would never pick up a load from the Tesco warehouse to deliver to a local Tesco store before turning back to leave UK and then go home.

    What's missing now is the locally hired Tesco store drivers that work domestically only driving Warehouse to local store with deliveries. The reason the numbers have dropped of drastically is really two fold; first of all Covid and secondly visa issues for foreign truck drivers. 14k truck drivers left before jan 1st 2021 but only about 600 returned and this is a combination of covid, new tax rules and visas basically. UK now suffers from 13.4k drivers missing from their roosters and they have not had any new drivers being allowed to do the test (due to covid) for 18 months or so. Hence; reduced driver base due to people going home + no new drivers + higher need for domestic drivers for port to store etc. = shortage of domestic drivers. This has been an issue growing for years but the availability of EU drivers helped plug the hole and let the companies get away with paying **** money for the job. This meant UK drivers did not bother taking those jobs rather doing higher earning jobs (such as international delivery; special delivery ala fuel tanker etc.) leaving the cheap foreign drivers do those drives. And now those drivers left and did not come back the huge gaping hole suddenly appeared that no one could have guessed (yes that's sarcasm). The proposal that's being discussed is to fix this issue by trying to reduce the some requirements for the visa; I'd guess salary as the salary may not be high enough for a normal visa (esp. if they go to India etc. to recruit instead) to allow them to import more drivers. Fixes nothing really with the first point but works as a quick fix for the second point from a visibility perspective of empty shelves.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    This link from 2016 compared numbers of qualified and employed drivers back then.

    80,000 people in the 25-44 age group with a then current Driver CPC who were not currently working as truck drivers.

    90,000 individuals in the 25-34 age group without a current Driver CPC. All they required was a week in a classroom without any test or examination, and they too could get behind the wheel of a truck.

    There are about 600,000 people holding LGV cat C (rigid truck) or cat C+E (articulated lorry) licences in the UK who do not currently drive trucks for a living.

    There is no driver shortage in the UK. There is a massive shortage of people prepared to put up with the pay and conditions and abuse and responsibility and out of pocket expenses. And IR35 has closed off the 'self employed' loophole.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    Heard anecdotal evidence from a truck driver one time that Britain is not a very truck driver friendly country in comparison to other countries ( which are not fantastic either) From poor truck stop facilities to being treated aggressively by residents and other road users particularly on the more narrow roads.

    Definitely it would make you think that truck driving is not a highly regarded profession in Britain that they could be so blasé to allow a situation like this develop. And there does seem to be a lack of appreciation for the link between the big behemoth on the road and the food on the shelves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,038 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Remember that situation last Christmas at Dover where hundreds of EU drivers were treated appallingly and left dumped at the side of the road for days and with no facilities?. The local Sikh community generously brought them food. That was widely reported at the time and must have done huge reputational damage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 eternalblame


    Queues at petrol stations. I guess this is what 'taking back control' looks like



  • Registered Users Posts: 205 ✭✭Skygord


    Not only the overseas registered operators delivering from EU to UK, but the cabotage rules meant that the truck of the EU-registered haulage operator could do up to 3 UK-UK drops on the same trip before returning home; this meant that some UK-UK deliveries were done by trucks of EU-registered haulage operators - if they now aren't doing the inbound deliveries into the UK, then they ALSO aren't doing any of the cabotage runs within the UK too (also if they DO go, the number of cabotage runs has reduced from 3 to 2, but the bigger issue is they are not going as much, as the added UK-unique delays/paperwork make it simpler to just do runs within the EU).

    Post edited by Skygord on


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,418 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Well at least there will be no big trucks in the queue



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,645 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    What specifically would make a driver want to go / come back to the UK though that's better or different from what they've being working at in Europe ... How does this visa waiver actually urge anyone to arrive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,038 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I guess the only thing that would tempt them is if the salary was through the roof. But the UK finds itself in a terrible pickle : created a hostile environment for EU drivers and made them feel disliked and unwanted. Temporary visas are not going to undo the damage caused by Brexiteers and Leave voters. Aside from that, it looks like the UK based work would be too much hassle and inconvenient (paperwork and delays etc), even if they were inclined to do it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,645 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Yes that's my thoughts exactly. A temp visa which will cost money. Relatively high rent and cost of living that has shot up inflation and an unforeseen future.


    What's the point...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    This is the best analysis I've read about the waiver for HGV drivers so far




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,038 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I notice that Grant Shapps guy is still going on about EU drivers undercutting 'domestic' drivers in terms of wages and suggesting he's not entirely keen on the idea of the temporary visas. He's hardly doing anything to sell the idea or making EU drivers feel welcome.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,254 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't know. I feel like if you've the training and skillset, there's little reason to move to the UK. The wages might be inflated now but that's unlikely to last long enough to justify the move IMO to a country that's economically immolated itself partly because of immigration.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 eternalblame


    It could be a cold, cold Christmas ....



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,038 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Latest is that No. 10 say they will "allow" in 5000 migrant workers on temporary visas but that these visas will be "very strictly time limited".



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,645 ✭✭✭✭listermint




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,038 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    The last paragraph is absolute nonsense. Every large economy needs millions of low skilled workers. Also, when was the UK ever a 'high skilled, high wage' economy? They have a huge working class cohort and always have done. This is pure fantasy stuff.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    For an EU driver probably not a whole lot; for an Indian/African/Asian etc. driver the decision may look very different (yes I know the deal is suppose to be EU drivers but I'm quite certain Boris will expand that when they can't recruit enough to protect Christmas) ...

    Post edited by Nody on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Jesus the last paragraph is cloud cuckoo land. Oh Britain is just going to magically pivot to a High Wage, High Skill economy? That's nice, totally achievable; someone should tell Sharon working the tils in Asda, or Jim cycling 100km a day for deliveroo orders, they're about to earn High Wages on these sunny uplands. When the adults in the room are operating with this degree of delusion, what hope for the country?

    Dunt's followup tweet gets to the nub of the British Exceptionalism driving this entire sordid chapter. I'm sure some will take up the offer - but hard to see if the critical mass required will take the leap. Still, no doubt the spin doctors will be out in force applauding the plucky dozens of foreign Johnnie's helping out Global Britain feed and supply its population.

    It's the product of a culture which can only see immigrants as desperate hordes who'll come rushing in as soon as you open the door. Lucky them, to come in and work in **** conditions before getting flung out again.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,547 ✭✭✭rock22


    I wonder how much preparation our own government is doing around this. I see MM predicting shortages around Christmas here too.

    There s still an awful lot of goods we consume that is still routed through UK. And any shortage there, or blockage in the supply chain will have a knock on affect on us .

    Can the government direct that good from rest of EU to us should not leave the EU, i.e. not be exported to UK and then reimported to us again?



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