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M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,727 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    yeah, west side of the road coming out near Jocks pub would also work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,024 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Especially with them already proposing a link road to the organic farm and the data centre would have to have provision for internal roads within the development.

    But going back to your previous map, it could also make sense to contuine the new link road from Farrenkelly rd- Kilquade rd further south and through the farmland to link with Garden Village and Ballyronan rd. Ironically, this is the way the n11 should have gone in the late 70s, early 80s rather than dividing Kilpedder in half.

    Same goes for Kilmac, if they had of gone behind the garage (east side) in the 90s it wouldn't be as contentious as it is today.

    So alas, while there are some good elements in the latest plan, I don't believe we won't be back here in 10 or 15 years looking for the latest solution to Wicklow coco's/abp endless granting of residential planning applications with no care for proper public transport infrastructure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,727 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I believe there are already plans for a connection from GV to the Newtown-Kilcoole Rd. partly to provide a route from the industrial estate in Kilcoole to the N11 without going through one or other of the village centres.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,951 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    This scheme brings into focus the fact that we really need to be thinking holistically about this type of thing, i.e. "how can we improve all transport options for passing between Dublin and Wicklow" instead of "how do we improve the N11 road." What we really need is to improve the road for cars, add missing side roads for cyclists and pedestrians, add bus lanes and provide more frequent buses, and double track and electrify the coastal rail line. Should all be one project ideally, but that's not this world.

    As for the road improvements themselves, here are my observations:

    J4-J5 to be widened from 6 to 8 lanes by adding auxiliary lanes. If the M50 is widened to 6 lanes in future, this might need to be 10. Six of those would be the M50 lanes and 4 the N11 ones. Unusal layout in that the mainline would go from 4 N11 lanes to 6 M50 ones.

    Was initially disappointed that the Bray bypass will not be widened to 6 lanes mainline, but there isn't room along most of it and the new service roads will be functionally part of the road. Broadly happy with these new service roads as a solution. Glad that Herbert Road will no longer have its incredibly dangerous direct access to the mainline.

    The new J5 *might* work. The plan is have the N11 with north-facing ramps at J5, and south-facing at J6.

    Some thought should go into how the Luas will get through the new J5 as it will probably run along the west side of the M11 before crossing it at that junction to reach central Bray.

    That Luas line also envisaged a big P&R at Fassroe. But the plan now is to close that junction so NB car traffic would need to exit at Bray South and come up the new side roads to get to Fassroe. So it's no longer a great location for that P&R.

    No redesignation to motorway for J6 Fassaroe-J7 Bray South (and beyond). The N11 will no longer have stopping lanes, but that should not preclude it.

    Surprised and pleased with the new plan for J7 Bray South. Shows imagination.

    Happy with the new side roads and closures for the busy J8-J9, though some are vaguely defined as Phase 3.

    There is land for a new road south of J8 near Kilmurray west of the N11 connecting a potential new side road to the cottages, but no road is marked on the land so not sure if this has been finalised yet.

    Pity there will not be protected side routes for cyclists/pedestrians provided through Glen of the Downs. Happy with it otherwise, though they really should build a tunnel and narrow the surface dual carriageway.

    Happy with the changes to be made north and south of Kilpeddar, and complete closure of J10. These changes should have been made when new J11 was opened in 2008, but better late than never.

    Rap on the knuckles for no improvement to J12 SB offramp. This incredibly dangerous diverge nearly killed me many years ago. Notes say there may be further changes north of that in Phase 3, so fingers crossed.

    No improvement at all will be made to the junction layout at J13 at NTMK. No new side road between J13 and J14. Bus stop on the mainline just north of J14 to be retained. This means redesignation of J12-14 as motorway, which would have been very easy, is off the table. All very poor.


    So broadly speaking, it seems the northern end of the scheme will greatly improve safety and, through the provision of new side roads, capacity. No change will be made to the Glen which is wise. They could have done better with the Newtownmountkennedy bypass. We'll see how the Green Minister for Transport views this scheme soon enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,268 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    The campaigns are already up and running to save junctions/ direct access to the N11... There's an online petition to "Save Delgany Village Access to N11" by keeping Delgany/ Drummin exits.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,727 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    yeah and various local politicians have rolled in behind it.

    A lot of people pushing the petition seem to have missed the fact that there will be a new direct flyover between Delgany/Drummin and Willow Grove and are saying Delganians will have go around by Greystones to get to the N11. In reality the extra time to use J11 via Willow Grove will be around 2 minutes max.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    A lot of those campaigning to "Save Delgany Village Access to N11" are the same short sighted muppets who campaigned for the red route in a knee jerk nimby panic over a motorway through the gold course.

    It was as clear as day that if the red route was chosen Junction 10 would be closed - bit late to be whingeing about it now.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    I suspect 2 mins is true off peak. I'd say it will be considerably more than 2 minutes extra in rush hour, particularly in the evening with traffic coming off N11 at J11.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,727 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    maybe, at rush hour all bets are off. You want to drive to work, you're going to get stuck in traffic at numerous points along the route.

    at the end of the day, my main concern was that they not widen the road. After that, I don't really care whether they close J10 or not.

    Looking again at the plans for J10, the underpass at Barry's Bridge basically becomes a dead end, or extended driveway for the one house on that side of the road. It would be better if they left the connection to Old-Downs Road in place (& maybe make the road 2-way again)



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,727 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Also curious to see how they plan to deal with this little cul-de-sac access to 2 houses and a farmyard on the west of of the Glen - it's not straightforward to connect it to J9.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,268 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    They also still have to deal with the active travel component of the scheme too. It's very light on detail, in my albeit limited experience of such projects, for this stage? A lot left to be dealt with/ options to be considered/ can kicked down the virtual access road....

    Edit - also the public transport component!



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,631 ✭✭✭✭josip




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,727 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    that did occur to me, but it depends on who own the land and the existing laneway in. seriously slow circuitous route on crappy boreens for the house nearest the N11 too.

    another option would be to connect it to the hotel carpark, but I'd imagine the hotel owners wouldn't be keen on that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,268 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Nice bit of extra road frontage all the same...



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    They'll probably end up having to cpo the complete properties if owners are not prepared to accept massive detour via boreens.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,631 ✭✭✭✭josip


    3km on boreens wouldn't be considered 'massive' by many people in rural Ireland, but for someone used to leaving within a few hundred metres of the N11 I agree it would be a big change. Tough decision though, most people would probably prefer to stay in the family home and maybe accept some lesser compensation.

    Are there any access rights to 'routes' in Ireland? As long as they can access a road connected to the road network, then they have no recourse to compensation. When a new road was built near us growing up, we lost the road I used to go to school on. The alternative was a kilometre longer and more dangerous by bike. Should we have gotten compensation?



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    How long was the the journey on the old road you went to school on?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,631 ✭✭✭✭josip




  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    I don't think you should have got compensation for this road, because it appears that whilst you were inconvenienced your property rights were not interfered with.

    Very different to the case of a house whose access to national road network of of a couple hundred metres is forced closed and replaced with alternative access to national road network via 3km of boreens. That would certainly seem massive compared to what they're used to and a clear interference with their property rights.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,024 ✭✭✭prunudo


    This is it in a nutshell. It seems a lot of people don't want change and also many don't realise that being so vocal against an offline upgrade the red option would change the way we use the current road for ever. The residents of Delgany seem to want to have their cake and eat it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,727 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Most of that alternative route is a private farm track. The first turn off Red Lane is still a public road, but the next turn is not. If the track is owned by one of those 2 houses, it might not be an issue, but if it isn't they'd have to CPO the track and make it a public road (and probably surface it properly as well).



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,631 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Harsh :) What about our own house? We had direct road frontage onto a National road, even the express from Dublin would drop me off at the door if there were few left on. We went from 10m to 850m to the National road when the new one was laid down. A bigger percentage change.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    It's all too messy, which is exactly why I think they'll have to CPO the houses that are losing access at that point.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    But they did they shut your access to the road or just downgrade the road you had access to and put a new national road somewhere else?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,727 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    it would be unusual to CPO houses that aren't actually affected by the road. They're not really doing anything with the N11 itself at that point and those houses are hundreds of metres from the road anyway. One of them is probably a farmhouse too. I'd say they'll find some solution; maybe throw some money at the owner of the laneway to allow access.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Just realised they may end up having to CPO 50+ acres of land up there too if much of that land is in the ownership of one of those houses! That'll be pricey! I guess they might look to link it off the road to the south that winds up past the old Glen of the Downs industrial estate, but that could be messy too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,727 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    something like this might be possible too, but again they'd have to pay the hotel to secure access rights:




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,631 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Downgraded the road and blocked 1 end. So no difference if we were going one direction. But if we were going the other direction it was 4km longer, albeit on good roads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,631 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Going through the hotel grounds would be tough to sort out from an insurance point of view?

    Would this be an easier option?




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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,024 ✭✭✭prunudo


    You're not looking at a flat map lads, that farm is essentially in a valley, will involve a steep road out no matter which way they go to solve.



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