M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822584#Comment_117822584

Yeah, parents got letters too, doesn't give detail of how much it will encroach into their property, interactive map is still showing the previous options.

Only time will tell now.

prunudo

So first impressions, as suspected lots of junction and private access closures. Majority of engineering works appear to be around jn7. No 3rd lane, with majority of route being 2 lane mainline. Parallel link roads a big focus between jn8 and jn5.

After the initial excitement about going for big outside the box solutions it appears they've gone for the tried and tested route of trying not to annoy people and dare I say it, another fudge. Although maybe thats a bit harsh, but I'll study it in more detail later.

https://n11m11-j4toj14-pc3-preferred-option.virtual-engage.com/

hometruths

That's my first impressions too. Another fudge.

Disappointed they didn't go for the cyan route and try and solve the problems once and for all, future proofing the M11 and using existing N11 to create a brilliant local road network that would serve local traffic/public transport/cyclists and pedestrians excellently, as well as opening up a large amount of commuter belt land to expand existing towns and deliver for future housing needs.

Very short sighted.

Kermit.de.frog

There is an aux lane + additional lane proposed on the existing M11 but overall this is basically the cheapest option they have chosen which won't resolve anything and we'll need to revisit a few years after.

Will Ireland ever learn that it is best to do things properly the first time? This is just penny pinching.

They choose the cheapest option now only to have us spend far more in the future refixing it.

It's depressing really.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824603#Comment_117824603

Indeed. What is so depressing is that in the project brief and road safety reports they repeatedly attribute the cause of the problems they are trying to solve to the fact that the road has been developed piecemeal over time. And they repeat it today. For example in the "Active travel component document":

However, the development of the present N11 along much of the original trunk road has resulted in a marked absence of alternative routes to satisfactorily cater for pedestrians and cyclists

Very odd!

prunudo

Another thing that worries me is the talk of closing jn8 and diverting all the traffic onto the new parallel link road. A lot of tourist traffic uses that junction, would hate to see short sighted planning causing excess traffic on these so called solutions.

Pete_Cavan

Any offline road here was never realistic, they were only included to go through the motions and say they looked at everything. Once offline aroundKilmac was ruled out, it didn'tmake sense to spend a fortune further south while the northern end remained a bottleneck. It would take years of planning and even if approved, probably wouldn't get built due to being at odds with government policy and/or cost reasons.

The problem of over capacity on approach to Dublin will still exist and adding capacity further south is only going to exasperate that problem. Where this proposal is disappointing is the lack of consideration for alternative methods of transport, particularly the lack of bus lanes at the northern end where additional lanes are to be provided.

Some of the junction proposals look like they could be better. I thought a roundabout setup like M4 J6 would have been a better option at J5, should fit and higher capacity. I don't understand why it isn't proposed to upgrade J8 to a full dumbbell which looks relatively easy to achieve. Going to this level of work but leaving J9 as is stupid. They should look at building a new junction slightly further north and a new access road to Greystones from it.

Macy0161

There is no "once and for all" solution, at least not in terms of road building, unless it is grade separated bus and active travel lanes, and park and rides. Both which kicked down the road in this update from my reading.

Even the "future network" bit on the active travel they have a big gap in the most direct active travel route from Kilmac to Kilcroney - there's the proposed greenway towards Bray, but for commuting purposes, most direct route is better, so Kilmac - Kilcroney online on the same line as the n11- then link up with the one they highlight (at least northbound).

loyatemu

I'm happy to see they've mostly gone with my suggestions 😎

essentially tidying up the mainline, removing extraneous junctions, doing what they can to get local and non-motor traffic off the dualler and putting in bus lanes (actually having looked at the details,. they're not committing to this but it's being "investigated")

I can live with that - anything else would have involved throwing vast sums of money at car-based commuting.

I had expected to see more about parallel road infrastructure further south (which would also provide offline cycling routes). Maybe this will be dealt with in the next phase but it looks like it still won't be possible to go from (say) Kilpedder to Kilmac without using the N11 through the Glen, or from Kilpedder to Newtown to Ashford without taking to the boreens. This would seem to preclude redesignating the road to motorway.

BigMoose

Presumably the lack of shoulder on the main line where the parallel roads are right next to it between jn6-7 and 7-8 would preclude it ever being a motorway? Crashes north in the morning on these sections would make a bigger mess than now - although I guess the idea is there wont be as many with less crappy junctions. Also the roundabout at jn7 is already a bit of a disaster and they're adding more traffic to it? Slightly longer slip off the mainline south for traffic to queue I guess.

There's a bunch of crappy access junctions that they seem to have kicked the can for too until "phase 3" whenever that is?

While this looks like a really short term cheap option, what is really disappointing is there's no joined up thinking/planning around any alternative. If there's no usable alternative (and by that I mean better than buses that sit in the traffic), folk will drive and will vote accordingly when they spend half their life stuck on the N11 or standing out at wet miserable bus stops. I've lived in Wicklow for little under 15 years and never used the train until recently as it's effectively useless for commuting if you're likely to have overrunning work commitments or day trips as the timetable is so bad, but took a staycation in Dublin so decided to take the family on the train to save parking and was impressed at how easy and busy the journey was, even on a bank holiday. Clearly there's demand for a regular/usable train service from Wicklow and parts of a usable asset already there. But absolutely no desire from a so call green transport minister that I can see to properly invest in the rail network and get more folk out of cars into a train...

loyatemu

they specifically said they weren't examining rail options as part of this project because Dart+ would contain proposals for the south-eastern line.

A more frequent rail service to Wicklow Town is a no-brainer but it will probably be an hourly shuttle to Greystones with only the Wexford trains running through to the city.

on the N11 plans, the cross sections would seem to preclude bus lanes where service roads are taking away the hard-shoulders. If the idea is for buses to use the service roads it seems likely they'll just get caught in traffic on those instead (i.e. if the service roads are quieter than the mainline, then people will just use them as rat runs to save themselves 30 seconds and the traffic will balance out with the service roads effectively become extra N11 lanes).

Chris_5339762

My prediction is this won't happen.

The loss of movements at the Bray north and south junction will cause such a ruckus that they'll be designed back in, or the whole thing canned.

BigMoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117828424#Comment_117828424

Last I looked at the DART+ plans though there was nothing mentioned for south of Greystones which is no help for easing traffic through GOTD or attempting to invest in greener transport... I agree a frequent rail service is a no brainer if they are in any way serious about public transport, but see no evidence they really are. If it is a shuttle to Greystones or takes up a Dart slot an hour further into town, either would be a massive improvement on the joke it currently is.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117829043#Comment_117829043

the plans for Greystones include an extra south facing platform, which could be used for a Wicklow shuttle. They're also going to end up with a bunch of battery powered trains that could be used for that shuttle.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117828482#Comment_117828482

I dont understand the proposal for the southbound merge to be closed at J5, I dont see the benefit to it particularly given they are suggesting leaving far worse merges as they are further south. Like I said above, I think an alternative junction design at J5 should be considered and also incorporating bus priority measures. Creating a higher capacity junction at J5 could be used to justify closing J6, although I'm sure there would still be some opposition. It could be a case of proposing something basic now, then improving the design at the next stage as a way of pacifying people. Lots of areas have been left vague, this draws out the complaints which can then be addressed (or the reasonable ones addressed at least).

In any case, while I'm sure there will be plenty of moaning, I don't see the issues being that big that the whole thing gets canned. The existing issues are that big that something has to be done and I'm sure everyone would agree with that. Leaving everything as is is just not an option.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831182#Comment_117831182

Yeah, there a few oddities in the plan. Essentially means anyone from Shankill or Bray North will have to either join n11 southbound at Loughlinstown roundabout or go on local roads and join at jn7.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831413#Comment_117831413

I can only assume they have traffic count figures that show there is a fairly small amount of traffic genuinely heading south on the N11 from Bray, and that most of the traffic joining from the 3 junctions is local people avoiding going through the town. So this traffic will shift to the new service roads.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831447#Comment_117831447

True, just find it odd they're diverting traffic back through Skankill. Whatever about closing one junction, closing both jn5 and 6 seems odd. I'm all for closing the likes of Herbert rd etc. and connecting these into the parallel road system.

Of course these are all only proposals so time will tell. Anyone got any feelers for current public opinion further north. I get the impression once Delgany village routes (and a lesser extent of Downshill) were abandoned the outrage about any works around this this end has dissipated. Social media certainly doesn't seem to be in meltdown like before. Feels like most people are happy as the inconvenience 'only' effects those along the current route.

loyatemu

what do you mean "back through Shankill"? I'd imagine you'll be better off using the service roads than going through Shankill village if heading south, even from Little Bray.

There are some mutterings on the Greystones Open Forum about the closure of J10, though I don't really know why. It will make it slightly longer to get onto the N11 from Delgany but it'll massively reduce the amount of rat-running traffic in the village.

loyatemu

Here at Kilquade, I've got to assume that they'll continue that orange service road ("Kilpedder West") south to connect to the roundabout at Garden village, as it will provide access to the house in the middle (marked with an 'i') and also an offline connection between Newtown/Kilpedder/Greystones which is a missing link in the current plans.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831559#Comment_117831559

Certainly looks like they will have the land take available. I believe there will also be a link rd through the garden village sandpit connecting to the Kilcoole rd, although this will be part of the developments here, not to do with the n11 project.

Agree with you regarding the jn10 changes, can't see it having that much issue and will definitely stop the rat running.

You could be right about Shankill, just thought you'd be putting a lot of the residents from the south of the village back through the village to get to Loughlinstown. But as you say, the traffic counters probably showed they were in the minority.

loyatemu

Agree with you regarding the jn10 changes, can't see it having that much issue and will definitely stop the rat running.

It will probably also bring pressure to build the Greystones Northern Access Road (connecting to J9) which I'm not crazy about but is probably inevitable.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831780#Comment_117831780

Is there an actual route identified for such a road? I couldn't find anything online.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117832515#Comment_117832515

Locally rumoured to run from Redford cemetery towards the old Glen of the Downs golf course and then link up with jn9, Glenview hotel. But as you say there doesn't appear to be anything concrete on line or on maps.

Regarding the actual need for road, and i know ot, but difficult questions will have to be asked about what people want. A new road isn't ideal but upgrading Windgates rd isn't without issue either as there are space constraints should they want to add bus and cycling infrastructure.

loyatemu

the start of the NAR is on the old development plan (from 2014). It's essentially where the new Cairn development is going at Redford, I think the first bit of it will be built by Cairn, to be extended at some point in the future towards Ballydonagh Road to the north of Kindlestown Woods. That Cairn development hasn't been submitted to planning yet - there's a placeholder for it here: https://www.cairnhomes.com/new-homes/coolagad/

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117833297#Comment_117833297

Found it on a map here;

https://www.wicklow.ie/Portals/0/Documents/Planning/Development-Plans-Strategies/Local-Area-Town-Settlement-Plans/Greystones-Delgany/Greystones-Delgany-Kilcoole-Local-Area-Plan-2013-2019/Map_A_Land_Use_Zoning_Map_0.pdf

Perhaps it is outside the scope of the Greystones-Delgany and Kilcoole Local Area Plan but the intention really should be to extend it to the N11. No similar map appears in the Draft Wicklow County Development Plan 2021-2027. Ideally a new junction 9 would be created along with the western section of the new access road. J9 is substandard and adding some J10 traffic to it is not going to do it any favours.

https://consult.wicklow.ie/en/consultation/draft-wicklow-county-development-plan-2021-2027

spacetweek

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/public-consultation-under-way-on-proposed-overhaul-of-co-wicklow-s-n11-1.4665563

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831559#Comment_117831559

There are 2 houses which would block continuing the road you're referring to.

Doesn't seem worth it to demolish 2 houses to provide an access road to a third!

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855034#Comment_117855034

it would provide an offline route from Newtown to Kilpedder and Greystones, currently that traffic uses the N11. Connecting the house in the middle (which they have to do anyway to close their private access onto the N11) would be a bonus, but there's probably another way of doing it without demolishing any houses. e.g.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117856844#Comment_117856844

Not sure what route it will take, and could even be on the west side of the road, but given they have added a lot of 'will be addressed at design stage' comments I reckon there will be one or two surprises that will make it to the final plan.