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Will racism ever end?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,826 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber

    Racism will not end because too many people gain an advantage by using it to divide the single human race into smaller groups fighting each other.

    The poor of all skin colours have more in common than they do with the rich of the same colour skin.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,826 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber

    Does a low number of interracial marriages make racism ok?

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs

    I'd agree with that, certainly on the poor having more in common with each other and division being used as a weapon, though even there we see hierarchies of attention and concern.

    I would include racism within the larger framework of human tribalism seeking advantage. It just makes it "easier" to point out and discriminate against The Other. Take the Rwandan genocide where nearly a million men women and children died in inter ethnic horror. To a fat American good old boy who likes to dress up in pointy hats and his mammy's bedsheets they're all [insert racist slur here], but to the Hutu and Tutsi the differences were apparently easy enough to mark out and seek out to the point of bloody murder. No doubt Rwandans viewing the Troubles in Ulster on their tellies would have been scratching their heads, but that was pretty clear to the locals. If the groups involved are of a different skin colour it just makes this tribalism easier. Human groups have always sought to establish the foundations and advantages of belonging and of course not belonging. That can be along religious, political, cultural, economic, gender and yep racial lines.

    Of course not. It isn't OK. However it illustrates that this partisan tribal human nature is dug in deep and even within interracial marriages we see this. So in answer to the OP's question; will racism ever end? I doubt it. We may improve things on the edges and on the surface and new racisms could come along, but ending it? Sadly I can't see it. Even if we did end up in some odd utopia of sallow skinned black haired brown eyed people, we would almost certainly find a new Otherness to point to. In that aforementioned Rwandan tragedy, many Hutus were murdered because they "looked like" Tutsis.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Btw shouting abuse out the window of a car, be it racism, sexism or just general loutish comments is outing yourself as a complete oaf. Trashy behaviour.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo

    They throw the ball in American Football.

    No, racism will never go away. People are inherently tribal, they had to be over the millennia. Strangers, and those who do not look like us will always be looked upon warily, it’s instinctive now after so many years of it in the past. Some people can resist their instinct and give everyone a chance, others can’t.

    And as said above, the jump to racism for every single thing that happens to a black person does not help. George Floyds death had nothing to do with racism. George Nkencho’s death had nothing to do with racism. His 15yo brother getting arrested for driving with no license, no insurance etc has nothing to do with racism. Yet you’ll get the same Twitter idiots like Chu and her followers jumping on it and screaming racism no matter what. It’s diluted all meaning.

    I’m 39 now, if someone had called me a racist between the ages of 18-30 I’d have been upset and worried about clearing my name, if somewhere said it now I’d laugh it off. Because now racist just means we’re talking about someone black or an incident relating to someone who is black and I don’t agree with the person I’m talking to. Especially on boards.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭LeBash

    No, it won't end. Why someone's skin colour would upset someone is beyond me. I do somewhat agree that the word racist being lightly throw about has disarmed the ugliness of a racism as a poster above pointed out.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,476 ✭✭✭dublinman1990

    How racism has developed over the years is largely down to the makeup of the family's hierarchies down through the generations.

    If people were born in a much older era when compared to now in the present day; the stark differences in how racism was expressed from that particular period of time up to now can be quite heartbreaking. Many many centuries ago; black people in America were not immune to prevent themselves from becoming slaves to white people of their generations from days gone by. Racism, brought on by slavery back then, being expressed from one race to the other was by and large seen as an essential norm by the ruling classes in those days.

    But when you look at the impact of racism today; it's still here with us while we see ignorant people express powerful and emotional messages of hate to their common man who will never be the same as them. But the people who express these less visible messages of hatred and discrimination towards these groups can be hard to swallow in this country. You could see these people in day to day life today working in normal jobs being normal people among the rest of society. But there is an undercurrent of racists out there who are within that category who can be quite nasty to others when the victims don't expect it.

    Now imagine that man being talked about in the OP was actually working here with a decent career & reputation among his colleagues. And then outside of the workplace in a personal capacity; he has the gall within himself to secretly express his nasty racist undertones to other different people who are actually not blind to see the ignorance come out of his own mouth. How could people here feel about it if that was the case? What could people here say about hearing those racist messages unfold right in front of their eyes? Could they say that he was a dickhead or a scumbag to quieten his ignorant demeanour?

    Or could you have people expressing praise to him because they were brought up in the same ilk as the racist? If you asked which one could be more shocking then the other. It's definitely the latter because that is how racism will never end in this country or in any other country. It will stick with the assholes as they know they can use it to beat someone verbally by expressing it because they can use it properly without seeing the consequences.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,030 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke

    No, because it's human nature to be one better than everyone else, and some people will do anything to get that. It all stems from greed, so in order to end racism, and hapes of other human issues, greed needs to be eliminated. Which will never, ever, ever, ever happen.

  • Registered Users Posts: 41,067 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra

    Is greed an inherent part of humans personality though? Is it naturally there or a learned trait?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet

  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]

    ^Not sure that greed is the issue. What is inherent, written into our biology and later described as human nature, is that we are hierarchical pack animals. Racism is one way (among many) of asserting membership/position in the pack(s).

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,826 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber

    I might agree with you that there is a certain aspect of fear of the unknown innate to humans.

    But can anyone use that to excuse racist taunting and abuse at sports events for example. Is it fear making grown men make monkey chants and throw banana's at sports people they dislike?

  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]

    Racism will never end, so long as people make excuses for it

    'humans are inherently tribal' etc. It's always been like that, it's in our DNA etc etc.

    Also, so long as they try to downplay it,

    'ginger people get abuse too ' like racism is just name calling.

    people making excuses for racism behaviours are as bad as the racist people.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs

    The old nature/nurture debate. Which oft becomes political of late. For me anyway it's not an either/or thing, on the personal or societal level. We're neither blank slates nor gene robots. To figure which side a trait lays I would suggest looking at that trait across societies and human history. If it's present in some and not in others then it's likely learned, if it's consistently present across societies throughout history then it's likely inherent.

    Greed as a concept seems to arise when populations grow and springs out of resources and competition for same. In a small band of hunter gatherers you can have a greedless society. Indeed greed would be selected against, at least within such a society. The second there's a competition for resources with another small band all bets are off. When we first started to move into bigger urban populations and civilisation sprang up we accepted it as a problem and codified against it in law, organised religion and folk tales. Of course at the same time those who controlled the laws, religion and folk tales tended to display the worst vices of the same trait. Do as I say, not as I do. A very human trait. These days it can be seen in multi squilionaire flim stars flying around in private jets lecturing the plebs on climate change and the need to consume less.

    Racism, or rather a tendency to see belonging and by extension not belonging to a group which can and does come out in racism, is also present in every single culture and society on the planet since god was a boy. Outside the gates are the barbarians, the pagans, the other, the lesser, the feared.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.

  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]

    Identifying a problem is not the same as condoning or excusing it. So when I say 'we are hierarchical pack animals' and suggest that this is the source of prejudice based on skin colour, it is not with a shrug of the shoulders, it is with disappointment at the intractable and long journey ahead to eliminate that prejudice. Eliminating it will not be simple, and even we 'cure racism' that effort will be for nought unless we address the ground of the problem (that we are hierarchical pack animals) otherwise a new way of establishing position in the pack will emerge --e.g. in classless communist societies new hierarchies of poower and wealth emerged. These problems won't be cured by liberal sticking of fingers in ears and shouting 'make it stop.'

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs

    I think there are two aspects to this; explanation for something/excuse for something. Some use the former to cover the latter. I wouldn't. The example you give is well out of order, but sadly it happens and there are explanations for it. It's easier to just say ah well they're scumbags and come to one conclusion or the other depending on whether someone is an optimist or a pessimist. We can educate the scumbags(nurture), or we'll always have scumbags(nature). I'm not so sure there is an answer to such a complex set of questions, so I suppose I'm more on the pessimistic side and reckon we can educate some scumbags, but we'll always have them.

    If we ignore the clear realities of thousands of cultures over thousands of years, all we're left with is wishful thinking naivety. If wishes were horses beggars would ride.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,344 ✭✭✭✭silverharp

    Humans are pattern recognition machines and all races, creeds and classes,looks, abilities engage in it, so the next generation is right around the corner.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,070 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover

    People are people. Are all different and, as a result, you will always have a**holes. As others have said, prejudice has and will always exist. There will always be people who hate people of different colour. There will always be homophobes. There will always be people who hate Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Athiests etc.

    There will always be people who think it's OK and non-impactful to make fun of people because of their race, their gender, their height, weight, hair colour, sexual preference, age. Basically if you are different from the norm (Whatever that is).

    It's not an Irish thing. It's a global thing and anyone who thinks that it's more prevalent in Ireland than other places clearly has never lived abroad or even watched the news.

    Nobody is perfect. Everyone - and I mean everyone - when they really look deep down, will find their own prejudices: It may be a fear of Muslims, or a distrust of the Travelller community or a general dislike of the LGBTQ community. I know I certainly have my own opinions that would be considered prejudiced.

    Some forms of prejudice are more accepted than others. Are even considered funny. Tell me it's acceptable to abuse the fat kid or the skinny kid or the tall kid or the short kid or the ginger kid.

    People may say this is an excuse or a "Get out of jail" card but it's not. It doesn't make prejudice right and it doesn't release our obligation to try our best to not be a**holes but it does mean that it will always ALWAYS be here.

    So yeah, unfortunately, as long as there are people there will be prejudiced people.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,826 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber

    Murder will always exist. But that doesn't stop us striving to reduce it to the absolute minimum we can possibly achieve.

    Racism is the same can we eliminate in all humans all racist thought for ever? No.

    Should we stop trying to reduce how acceptable many types of racism is in many circles of modern society even today in Ireland? No.

    Racism is wrong, no matter your personal feelings on whether that is a "nature or nurture" issue. We have the tools within education and legislation to reduce both the amount and the type of Racism that is acceptable in society today. All right thinking people should aspire to minimise the impact racism has on those around us and anything else is allowing racism to thrive were there is no need.

    Racism is wrong and it should be called out in all its forms all the time.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,344 ✭✭✭✭silverharp

    Murder is clear, and obvious racism is obvious but its turning into a religion as a gift and a weird type of virtue signalling puritanism like Scientology except the Thetans are now "cultural appropriation" and all the other nonsense (see wokism of the day thread) which ironically could create more actual racism just so that people can have the quiet life

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,826 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber

    Your opening statement doesn't even pass much muster at all.

    Murder is not always clear and obvious otherwise court proceedings in cases of homicide would be much easier than at present.

    There are many types of very overt and obvious racism that can be tackled very easily. I have already pointed out racism in sporting arenas. There are many people present who witness and allow that racism to happen so it can be tackled and it can be stopped. It just requires people to stop it.

    As for the use of the classic "virtue signalling" misdirection crap 🤣🤣 give over will ya.

    Next you will be saying trying to stop racism is cancelling your culture. 🙄

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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,344 ✭✭✭✭silverharp

    you are going to nik pick my comment on murder on a casual posting forum like Boards After Hours of all places, I know what I mean, you know what I mean

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer

  • Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭ghoulfinger

    Humans are instinctively tribal in all the forms that takes, but wed that to cúntery/dickheadedness and you have the ugly expression of racism.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,826 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber

    I didn't Nit pick your comment. And I don't know what you mean. In the case of two men fighting and one dying we need a lot more information to decide if that was a murder or not. Murder is not always very obvious like I said.

    And many many examples of racism are very obvious. Would you not at least agree that all very obvious examples of racism should be abhorrent to all right thinking adults?

    Again I refer to the sports arenas where many many other people are witness to very obvious racism. Should that at a minimum not be deemed highly unacceptable in a modern society and deserving of punishment?

    Edit: Murder

    Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human with malice aforethought.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo

    Here comes the cavalry!!

    The poster didn't say that any dead person was murder. They used murder as an example. Murder is the premeditated killing of another person. That is the clear definition of it.

    As opposed to racism, which is not always overt. Is accidentally serving someone Ribena instead of wine racism? Is there a clear definition for this?

    Absolutely wasting my time explaining, because no doubt there'll be more twisting than at a Chubby Checker concert in future posts.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,826 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber

    Exactly just because we have a dead person does not mean it was a murder.

    Similarly not all racism is overt and obvious like for example people being excluded from access to jobs based on their nationality or skin colour it might not be obvious and easy to spot but quite a lot of racism is also overt and obvious nature.

    We at a minimum should call out overt racism in all its forms as wrong and their should be some societal punishment for racist behaviour. Again referring back to sports arenas there are many many bystanders when very obvious racism is taking place and if they want it to stop they can immediately report it.

    So there are things society can do even if its only the most overt racism we tackle right now and seek to remove.

    As adults we can call out our friends when they make obvious racist humour. Again this is something we can all do. To try and say we are powerless and it will always exist is just accepting racism and allowing it.

    We can all help reduce racism in society if we want.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    What societal punishment do you suggest for overt racism? Booing the players taking the knee, would you class that as racism? Is cultural appropriation racism? Is Ebun Joseph right to call out racism when she is served ribena? Is a black person referring to another black person as an N word racist? Is positive discrimination racist?

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,344 ✭✭✭✭silverharp

    I had a hankering for a curry on Sat, cultural appropriation? then I looked to order from an Indian restaurant, stereotyping? Im sure some chinese and other restaurants do Indian food, but did I give them a chance? No. Can I get absolution anywhere?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Joking aside, cultural appropriation is often used as examples of racism (wearing traditional asian clothes, dreadlocks etc) so I am not sure if some people would class this as overt racism that should be called out.

    Also the use of the N word. If, as some say, we should call out people using that word as an example of overt racism, would they equally call out a black person using that word?

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,826 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    I think you didn't answer.

    I don't think booing the players taking the knee is racist.

    I don't believe that cultural appropriation is racist.

    I think Ebun Joseph is a racist.

    I think that if we, as a society, declare that any usage of the N word is overtly racist, then it should be that way across all people.

    I completely disagree that positive discrimination is fair.