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Will racism ever end?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,622 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,622 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    Can you name one of these examples of hate crime you have seen "bandied about"?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne


    I'll answer your questions when you answer a few of mine Robbie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,840 ✭✭✭ fvp4


    It’s all very American Solipsism, this. Maybe Kaperniak should take the knee against US imperialism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,622 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    You don't need to make excuses for not answering my questions. I don't need another version of Schrodinger's context.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,622 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    Why. Can he not take a position on one issue he feels strongest about. Without having to publicly declare his position on all social issues?


    Do you have the same issue with members of Peta who haven't yet taken the knee?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne


    In fairness Robbie, I've answered all of your questions so far. You haven't answered one of mine.

    I'm not here to be interviewed by someone who has already (badly) tried to frame me as a racist.

    Either discuss in good faith or ignore me.

    I know which you will choose.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,622 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    How did I try to frame you as a racist?

    And what question do you feel I have ignored?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne


    Lol. More questions.

    You attempted to make it out I was annoyed I wasn't allowed use a racial slur.

    What societal punishment do you suggest for overt racism? Booing the players taking the knee, would you class that as racism? Is cultural appropriation racism? Is Ebun Joseph right to call out racism when she is served ribena? Is a black person referring to another black person as an N word racist? (Covered that one). Is positive discrimination racist?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,622 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


     Is positive discrimination racist? Depends could be I guess. Context really is key

    Do you think the disability act in Ireland which seeks to get 3% of all public servants to be people with disabilities as discriminating against those without disabilities?

    I don't know who Ebun jospeh is so make of that what you will.

    Is cultural appropriation racist. Depends on the context but to me in general no. Stupid yes quite a lot but not always racist in intent. Is blackface cultural appropriation because you know that is a bit racist isn't it

    Is booing the Knee racist? How can I or you answer for every single individual booing such a gesture. Do some do it out of racism yes I am sure they do, do they all no i doubt that. Do i think it is stupid to boo the knee yes.

    Do I support the taking the knee. No not really because I don't believe the gesture goes far enough to really tackle the issue of racism within the sport of soccer. I would like games played behind closed doors as a punishment for clubs of fans who engage in racism and lifetime bans for specific fans caught in racist acts.

    What societal punishment do I want for overt racism? Context is key here. different punishment depending on differing crimes but isn't that the way our society already deals with crimes. So I cant really answer unless you give clear examples of racism.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,622 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    I asked are you annoyed. You twice used a pejorative after the work black so I feel it was a fair question.



  • Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭ sekiro



    I don't really think it can ever end. Who really knows the mental state of the person who did this? Not to defend them but the actions you've described are not something I could ever see myself engaging in and I think 99% of people would feel the same way and yet, it happens.

    I would say I have the same problem with murder and other serious crimes. I have a hard time comprehending exactly why anyone would do these things and lack the desire or resources to educate myself about the reasons.

    Prejudice will probably always be a thing. On social media you can see people who will even engage in bullying and abuse but will defend it as being done in service of a good cause. The difference there is it's a bit more sophisticated than some knuckle dragger just going all in on someone's race or sexuality or disability or whatever.

    Unfortunately I think what I am really saying is that you could probably educate people out of being openly racist but would not be able to remove the impulse to bully or victimize. So you might be able to stop people from being so blatant and obvious about it through education but they will probably find a more subtle way to do the same kind of thing. Like the skin-head football fan will just stand there and roar racial slurs at someone because they are thick and without any sense of nuance, maybe even suffering mental-illness. On the other hand the university educated graduate might have a more complex system of setting up traps before sparking off an outrage mob to cost someone their job or whatever, they are probably also suffering from mental-illness.

    It think it is a lot more complicated that we will probably ever know but the most simple explanation is that some people are really, really, terrible and that's never going to go away. A lot of angry and irrational people in the world and they are looking to hurt others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne


    Thank you for your answers. It seems that we are not as far apart in our beliefs as I thought we were.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,395 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    If you want to experience real racism travel to the middle east as a white person, with your unmarried homosexual partner, and have an atheist public gathering.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭ Billy Mays


    There you go OP

    Tell your missus to suck it up. She has no idea what real racism is according to this chump 👍🏻



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,876 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    IMHO Sekiro ascribing mental illness to such things, while currently fashionable is both lazy, and most of all comforting for some. Person A does very negative thing X, normal people would never do that. Person A must be mentally ill, or stupid, or otherwise abnormal in some way.

    They said that about the nazis in the aftermath of the war too, but those who actually had dealings with some of the biggest monsters in European history were struck by the fact that with very few exceptions these were very ordinary men and women. Men and women who in another time and place could well have made great neighbours, friends and members of society. Many were extremely bright and well educated and good company. The uncomfortable reality is if this country went bad in the morning and some terror took over you can be pretty sure that it wouldn't be long before one third of people would be happy to subjugate and even kill those that were painted as the enemy while the other two thirds would quietly cheer them on, or look on and mostly down at their feet. In times of tyranny, your neighbour, your friends and even your family can be the greatest danger to resistance and you.

    No? Consider the Catholic Church and many of her small and big horrors that we suffered as a nation and how so many look back and curse them and think of them as an outside force. Well the foot soldiers who locked away our daughters and abused kids were among us. They were our grandparents and great grandparents. We abused those kids, or stood back and didn't dare to look or speak of it out loud and often berated those who did. That's one reason we laud and pin medals on the chests of those that resist tyranny. They're bloody rare.

    We may take comfort in the fact that personally we may be considerate and non prejudiced and altogether nice but that's because we grew up in a society that was and is most of the time. If we didn't we almost certainly wouldn't be, or those parameters would shift.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,622 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    Because your point A is not the starting point. Back back you go. Twice before that post that poster used unnecessarily the word black followed by a pejorative. For no real purpose other than to post those word together to this thread. Then despite later using the context defence, they question why the n word is not acceptable.

    And finally I never implied I asked a question.

    Can you explain how my words were dishonest and malicious?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,462 ✭✭✭✭ Tell me how


    You have literally documented the creation of a strawman argument at the perceived outrage that someone was said to be upset because they couldn't use a racist term.

    How on earth have you managed to quote someone and get it so wrong?



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,318 ✭✭✭✭ One eyed Jack



    The poster was making a hopeless attempt to appear objective, and like the guy in the car in the opening post - they hoped nobody would notice their obvious bias 😂

    To the question itself as to whether or not racism will ever end? The answer is clearly no, because it would require that people pretend they don’t have the capacity to observe differences and similarities between themselves and other people, and make decisions based upon that knowledge. Essentially, it requires people to behave as though they have the cognitive capacity of a grapefruit.

    Some people through no fault of their own, do have the cognitive capacity of a grapefruit. They’re the type of person who uses terms like “people of colour” or “person of colour” to refer to a group of anyone who isn’t white.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,761 ✭✭✭✭ klaz


    Well.. I doubt racism will end because the further social theory continues, the more emphasis is placed on the differences between people. There's little genuine interest in equality between the various groups.. everyone is dedicated to "their" group receiving attention and benefits, and while they might claim they want the same for other groups (in an ideal world), in a world with limited resources, their group will have priority to get those resources.

    And then, there are a host of individual experiences and subconscious biases that everyone has, where they might place a particular racial group as a greater threat than others. For example, I wouldn't be bothered meeting a group of Asian guys on the street late at night, but I'd definitely be cautious/wary on encountering a group of white or black guys. That's racist, because I'm judging a group based on their skin color, and the factors (knowledge, personal experience, etc) are irrelevant. It's still racist.

    TBH I think racism is simply part of the human consciousness. It can be reined in by laws, and social conditioning, but it's not going to disappear entirely.. and there will always be some people who will act out their biases. The majority will keep their biases to themselves, and honestly, that's should be the goal here.

    Oh.. positive discrimination and reverse racism is still racist. I'd say that one of the reasons that racism is becoming more obvious in society, is that "some" people are bending over backwards to make racism acceptable for the special people. The same way it's fine for Black people to use the phrase N***** but it's awful for anyone else to do the same, regardless of the intent behind the usage. That just screams double standards.. hard to push for equality when you're reinforcing the image that people are not equal.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,472 ✭✭✭✭ Galwayguy35


    There is racism in every country in the world, its always been there and always will be.

    Africans are quick to shout about us Irish being racist but try being an Indian for exampe in some of their countries and you would know what racism really is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne


    Fair enough. You are just wrong then



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,143 ✭✭✭✭ Strumms


    Will racism ever end ? No. Discrimination exists, it always has, always will.

    murderers will always exist, assaults, dangerous driving, theft, bullying.... always been a facet of life... every robber knows to steal is wrong, every murderer the same...every racist ... know they are wrong... we will never be without all those types of people or racists.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,761 ✭✭✭✭ klaz


    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne




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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,462 ✭✭✭✭ Tell me how


    I must say it's quite bizarre to see people who were arguing a few weeks ago that footballers shouldn't be taking a knee to call attention to racism are now arguing that racism will always exist.

    If you think racism will always exist, and have a problem with people calling attention to this and asking for action to be taken to hold people responsible, you should have a good think about where that puts you.

    At the very least its probably an example of that white privilege which you are also adamant doesn't exist.



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