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Will racism ever end?

  • 10-09-2021 5:34pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 463 ✭✭Dublinandy3


    Just got off the phone with my wife, as she was walking a man slowed his car down, shouted racist abuse at her and laughed and drove off.

    She was upset, it's not the first time she's been abused and sadly I fear it won't be the last and as I consoled her I just thought, will it ever end?

    The man who did it obviously didn't see or care about the impact. I was just thinking, as long as there are humans will there be racism?

    As nice as they look I'm not sure media campaigns or people taking the knee etc will stop it, it obviously highlights it but doesn't it just highlight it and make an impact to those that wouldn't do it anyway?


    Will it ever stop? I'm not sure it will.



«1345678

Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nope. People will always be arseholes. Same as people slagging gingers, fat people or bald lads.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,677 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Well, complete and utter annihilation of the human race would do it - zombies don't care. We all taste the same to them.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Tribalism/Racism/Xenophobia has been going on for around 100,000 years.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Haylee Magnificent Forklift


    Perhaps when our consciousness is uploaded to the cloud and replaced by some sort of software.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,061 ✭✭✭✭EmmetSpiceland


    A lot of lads on here will tell you there is no racism at all.

    “It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish nation” - Thomas Davis



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,625 ✭✭✭archfi


    The issue is never the issue; the issue is always the revolution.

    The Entryism process: 1) Demand access; 2) Demand accommodation; 3) Demand a seat at the table; 4) Demand to run the table; 5) Demand to run the institution; 6) Run the institution to produce more activists and policy until they run it into the ground.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,500 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Well, we might meet an alien species and be species-ist to them instead.

    Or maybe all races will disappear and merge into one melange...

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 598 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    Yes it will eventually end. As more people travel and integrate/ have kids, the human race will all be sallow skinned with black hair and brown eyes.

    Probably in the next 300 years or so.

    Then they will sigh about the loss of diversity.

    BTW op. sorry for your hurt...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    It ends in the spilt second that something alien comes out of space and arrives here

    until that happens no



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 461 ✭✭HerrKapitan


    Politicising it and this taking a knee rubbish destroyed any hope of ever eliminating it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,108 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    My friend recently described to me how her lockdown experience from March 2020 was hell on earth because of the racist abuse she got.

    These are her exact words. I removed some of what she said and replaced it with XXXX as it was potentially identifying.


    As a mixed race woman who was born in Ireland, growing up in the 80’s and 90’s and living for most of my life in one community as a child, student and mother, my experience of racism have taught me how to live in this country. I choose my battles, but few who decide to impose their racism on me walk away without understanding how their behaviour has affected me. There is a constant pressure on me to justify for my  reason for living here (where are you really from?), racial profiling (airports, shops,  check points) suggest that I am a threat and potential thief, social evenings inevitably are an invitation for at least one stranger a night verbally abuse me, I have been physically assaulted a number of times, once when heavily pregnant. I have been refused admission to pubs, hotels and followed around shops. I have been asked to pay at the point of service while others pay their bill at the end of a night. These are only some of my experiences of growing up in Ireland as a mixed race Irish person. These experiences have taught me how to live and navigate my environment and to assess levels of threat posed to me.

    XXXXX

    Where most found lockdowns a novel and frustrating experience, for me it became a prison. My 5km walk became increasingly dangerous. If there was a day that I escaped being verbally abused or the threat of being physically assaulted, there was always the reminder through xxxxxx and misinformation across social media platforms that people who looked like me were to be taken out of the community. We were being dehumanised through the tactics used on social media, shared by friends, colleagues and people I had grown up in an attempt to rid the community of people who look like me. We were considered rapists, paedophiles, prostitutes and careful consideration should be applied with people of colour on the basis that we were a threat to children, wives, husbands, the elderly and in general to the wider community. Fear was induced and there was an increased level of threat experienced by most who did not look Irish.

    XXXXX

    Exposing these incidents as they arise can reduce the tolerance that the community I grew up in have towards this behaviour. Without challenging it, it grows and becomes more pronounce, acceptable and normal. 

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭BobHopeless


    The media threw the whole anti racism movement under the bus when they made a convicted thug like Floyd a saint. 99.99% of Irish people aren't racist but you'll always get a few wanke rs



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The word racist has lost all meaning these days. It used to be a case that if someone was labelled racist they actually were a horrible bastard. Nowadays it's thrown around like it's nothing. Usually by people who are perpetually offended and don't want to hear others opinions. Just call someone racist and boom, conversation over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,108 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Mad isnt it how real life experiences get completely dismissed because racism gets "thrown around like its nothing" and "99.99% of Irish people arent racist". Its almost like people dont want to admit the real life experiences of the OPs wife or my friend actually exist. Why is that? Why is there such a culture of dismissal and denialism?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think it comes from a fairly benign place - they would never be racist, and their family and friends would never be, and they don't know anyone who's a racist, only people who don't care what someone's skin colour is... so they find it hard to believe that their world isn't reflected in the broader sense.

    It kind of can be applied to me - I don't know anyone who's racist, so I am genuinely shocked when I read about stories like your friend's and that of the OP's wife, but I don't disbelieve them. And you can't know the full story unless you're actually a minority. Also there are some horribly racist people hiding behind anonymity on social media, so I'm sure many of those would also engage in such behaviour off-line (although some wouldn't dare).



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan



    Would you say the same thing to Jesse Owens? What are people supposed to do to bring attention to suffering and injustice?

    The black man has been lynched and fcuked up and banged up and stitched up. Are they all supposed to set themselves on fire like the monk in Saigon?

    That NFL player Colin Kaperniak [sp] is a paragon of strength and fortitude. The man's integrity is INTACT.

    You want to fly bombers over a football match then have the balls to accept those who don't wish to participate.


    Otherwise just kick the ball around and enjoy the day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    If there is actually physical abuse, the threat of physical abuse or discrimination (in terms of access/service/employment) with evidence then report it to the relevant authorities just like any other crime. A certain amount of publicity is good for the above situations.

    But a constant ritual of taking the knee or having media reports every time a black person is racially abused online just gives off the air that these people just love complaining and being a forever victim, and sympathy will definitely wain. People get bored with constant complaining and it turns people who initially have sympathy against you, or at least uncaring to your plight.

    Next Man City manager: You lot may all be internationals and have won all the domestic honours there are to win under Pep. But as far as I'm concerned, the first thing you can do for me is to chuck all your medals and all your caps and all your pots and all your pans into the biggest **** dustbin you can find, because you've never won any of them fairly. You've done it all by bloody cheating.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,009 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Can you tell me, what do you think politics is about if it isn't about things experienced by significant groups in society.

    To suggest that behavior that has its foundation in viewing people in a specific way because of how they look or the wider group of which they are seen to be members of and treating them negatively as a consequence of this is either borne out of complete ignorance, or wanting to give a pass to people who commit such acts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,806 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Right-wing people who think because Obama became president that mean't racism was officially dead, and anyone who deviates from this view is a snowflake militant communist, who wants to put everybody into fema camps.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭Real Donald Trump


    Any person out on their own is subject to abuse/attack from strangers, and the person doesn't haven't to be black/Asian etc. having personally encountered this myself as a white bloke. Basically some people are just **** assholes, thankfully though, most people are decent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭randomname2005


    I don't believe so unless there is an earth threatening event, day after tomorrow scenario, independence day, something like that which destroys the world as we know it and forces a united approach from every individual to solve it. But even then I have my doubts.

    There will always be a section of society that feels hard done by. Some of those people will look to blame others. It can be a lot easier to say 'if it wasn't for the <Muslims, blacks, Jewish,...> Then my life would be better, I would have a better job, the government would be spending less on them and more on our own people.

    People will always need somebody to blame and race is an easy target.

    In addition to those you have the bigots and others who just believe that their race is the best and other races are lower quality of human, even when they have little to complain about. Education might help with this bunch but I wouldn't hold my breath.

    In summary, no, because there will always be a percentage of a$$holz.


    Edit: sorry to hear about the events above.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 havana21


    I’m so sorry for your wife, these racist pigs don’t realise the negative impact they have on people’s lives. It would be nice if we could obliterate it but sadly some people will never change. Hopefully karma will one day visit them!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I have not studied the area but my intuitions have always told me we can end racism if we make our society and policies and laws and institutions as "color blind" as possible. Unfortunately when I look at places like America with the "Critial Race Theory" and the stultification of education institutions and so forth I think they are taking the exact opposite approach by making everything hyper color aware as possible. So I can just hope that this works and proves all my innate intuitions wrong.

    But OP I think rather than focus on one isolated horrible event like your wife experienced it helps to focus on general trends over all. As someone in a strange relationship I sometimes witness or am even the recipient of homophobia - despite being entirely heterosexual myself. And I suffer if I allow those isolated events to affect me. Rather I prefer to notice that the general trend is that 15 years ago when I started in this relationship is a massively different Ireland than it is today in terms of acceptance of alternative sexuality and life styles. And I think the same is true when it comes to racism too. Our world still has racism in it - but its still a different much improved world than 50 years ago or 500 years ago.

    And a lot of that comes from conversation, education, knowledge and the erosion of ignorance. There is a prolific poster on this forum who once went off on one with me because I said I had "no dog in the fight" on the subject of Transgenderism for example. His reasoning was that since I had an alternative sexual relationship that I was simply "alternative" and that all that stuff was all the same so my claim to have had no dog in the fight was me telling an outright lie. In for one you are in for them all was his "reasoning" on the matter it seems.

    That level of ignorance in what is an older male is dying off. Many people realize its not "Us and them" or "Standard and Alternative" and they start to understand the diversity and nuance in it all. And quite often the problem is not racism or homophobia or alternate-phobia. It is just basic uneducated garden variety ignorance and people like him simply having no idea what they are waffling and ranting on about.

    The other issue of being moved too much by a single event or a small number of isolated events is we do not know the narrative of the person screaming out of the car. I was recently relistening to Eddie Izzard on Joe Rogan. He was telling the story of a guy screaming anti Transvestite abuse at Izzard in the street. Which Izzard rose to and was screaming abuse back in the street. Moved by his annoyance that such bigotry and phobia still existed. But it turned out later that this abuser was just mentally unstable and known in the area for screaming abuse at anyone on any subject. Who knows - this guy in the car might not actually be racist. He might just be unwell or have his own issues and might be in a lot of pain. Not that this justifies anything he screamed of course. But understanding it can help the recipient of it process the event.

    Granted coming from a position of empathy like that for a stranger in a car screaming abuse at you or worse your loved ones is not an easy space to occupy. It takes practice and work and discipline to maintain that kind of acceptance and open mind - and even people practiced at it fail often. But I genuinely experience a level of well being and peace of mind from it myself when I view the world through that kind of lens.

    Anyway that was a long monologue. I hope something in it brings you some peace of mind.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    That's highly unlikely to happen and certainly not in the next 300 years. Even in our world of mass travel(much of it temporary) people overwhelmingly choose to be with and have children with people most like themselves. That includes "race" as well as social class, educational and cultural background, even attractiveness. While there is some mixing at the edges it's not the norm and hasn't been throughout human history. The vast majority of human beings alive today have a genetic background that matches what they look like and where their ancestors hailed from, even in ex European colonial nations that have had many different racial and ethnic groups living together for centuries. People tend to stay and think "local".

    That local thinking also informs prejudice and racism. The Them Versus Us tendency is extremely strong in humans and again has been throughout human history. Even in cases of empire or religion where you have otherwise disparate members under those affiliations there is still the Them/Us stuff going on towards outsiders to those groups and even a heirarchy of Us within them. We are a social animal which is good, but part of the negativity of that is we also have a strong groupthink mentality. People who act or look least like "Us" pretty much automatically become "Them". Though these differences can be very subtle - an alien would be very hard pressed to tell the difference between a Catholic and Protestant in 70's Ulster for example - obvious things like skin colour just makes this easier for the real want of a better word.

    That's not to suggest all people are racist or prejudicial or partisan, though as a group we overwhelmingly tend to be.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    With the ever expanding grievance hustler industry?


    Not a chance

    Real racism is stupid, no one is superior to another person based on racial difference.

    Cultural difference is a different matter



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Thinking more on this, I'm not so sure it would end. After the intitial shock of the new, you'd likely get that old human jostling for advantage with the new arrivals and some groups would support them, others would not and a Them and Us could be fostered along those lines. Look at when the Spanish showed up in the Americas. They arrived in their giant boats like "aliens" looking quite different to the locals, with other worldly technology and horses and quite the number of local groups allied themselves with them to fight their existing enemies.

    Depends on the nature of the aliens too I suppose.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,208 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Sadly, it will never stop.

    People are assholes. Not everyone. But enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,009 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    The chance to travel, experience, observe and mix with other races today bears no relation to the vast majority of time that humans have walked the planet and if there was an ability to score the average persons awareness of or opportunity for integration (for however long) of other cultures throughout that time there would have been a massive jump in such a metric within the last 50 odd years as TV, the internet and access to low cost travel changed these things.

    These opportunities are unlikely to change (although low cost travel probably should) and so it is simply wrong to suggest people didn't mix so much throughout history and as a consequence are unlikely to do so in future. It is clear some people wish that this would be the case but the trends suggest otherwise.

    In the US, the rate of new marriages that are interracial grew nearly 6 fold between 1967 and 2015 to nearly 1 in 5 being such. As generations go by and kids from these marriages look for partners, you would think the concept of race matching won't even enter most of their minds.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Plausible in theory, but in practice not so much. Yes we have more chances to travel, but you're mistaking speed and convenience for volume and permanence and as I noted the majority of it is temporary and nothing like the mass movements of people that occurred in the European age of colonisation, or under Rome, or the Caliphates for a few examples(there are more across the world and history). Yep, in the past people couldn't go for a week in the sun, but when they did travel, they almost always stayed where they travelled to and were more likely to end up with a "local" with it. And travel people did, usually on the back of conquest, political change and economics.

    Secondly you use America as an example. One of those European colonies that sucked in a load of different cultures and people(many of whom unwillingly of course). Where different "races" were jammed together and even in those examples the trend was and remains the same. People overwhelmingly choose to be with and have children with people most like themselves. That interracial marriages grew since 1967 is hardly a shock as before that date it was illegal in many states, but 50+ years later the current rate is 15 odd % of marriages. Even within that percentage there are racial differences and racial undertones with it. For example White Americans are least likely to be in an interracial marriage(around 2%). There are gender differences too, so there are over double the number of marriages of Black American men to White American women compared to the opposite setup. The least likely by a good measure is Asian American man with Black American woman. On the other hand the most common pairing is a White American man with an Asian American woman. Asian American and Black pairings are a tiny minority. Hispanic Americans when they marry outside that category overwhelmingly marry White Americans(and only in American notions would you have Spanish Americans as "non White"). Women in general have been found to state a stronger preference for "one of their own" compared to men in general and had more caveats along racial lines. Even in Latin America where interracial pairings are about the highest on the planet, the majority still marry in rather than marry out.

    Not exactly the simple "melting pot" at all and as I said these are in environments where different groups co-exist and similar patterns are found throughout the same ex European colonies. In the rest of the world, much of it not multicultural in the Western sense the percentages are much lower and again similar trends are in play. Interracial pairings are the minority, men are more likely to marry a different "race", women less likely and more likely to marry closer to "their own" and it seems there are still hierarchies of social "acceptablity" along racial lines in place. In the UK which is multicultural and has been for many generations under 10% were in an interracial setup and the majority of them were of mixed background themselves.

    So not much of a trend towards the human race ending up all sallow skinned, with black hair and brown eyes.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,844 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Racism will not end because too many people gain an advantage by using it to divide the single human race into smaller groups fighting each other.

    The poor of all skin colours have more in common than they do with the rich of the same colour skin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,844 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Does a low number of interracial marriages make racism ok?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I'd agree with that, certainly on the poor having more in common with each other and division being used as a weapon, though even there we see hierarchies of attention and concern.

    I would include racism within the larger framework of human tribalism seeking advantage. It just makes it "easier" to point out and discriminate against The Other. Take the Rwandan genocide where nearly a million men women and children died in inter ethnic horror. To a fat American good old boy who likes to dress up in pointy hats and his mammy's bedsheets they're all [insert racist slur here], but to the Hutu and Tutsi the differences were apparently easy enough to mark out and seek out to the point of bloody murder. No doubt Rwandans viewing the Troubles in Ulster on their tellies would have been scratching their heads, but that was pretty clear to the locals. If the groups involved are of a different skin colour it just makes this tribalism easier. Human groups have always sought to establish the foundations and advantages of belonging and of course not belonging. That can be along religious, political, cultural, economic, gender and yep racial lines.

    Of course not. It isn't OK. However it illustrates that this partisan tribal human nature is dug in deep and even within interracial marriages we see this. So in answer to the OP's question; will racism ever end? I doubt it. We may improve things on the edges and on the surface and new racisms could come along, but ending it? Sadly I can't see it. Even if we did end up in some odd utopia of sallow skinned black haired brown eyed people, we would almost certainly find a new Otherness to point to. In that aforementioned Rwandan tragedy, many Hutus were murdered because they "looked like" Tutsis.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Btw shouting abuse out the window of a car, be it racism, sexism or just general loutish comments is outing yourself as a complete oaf. Trashy behaviour.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    They throw the ball in American Football.

    No, racism will never go away. People are inherently tribal, they had to be over the millennia. Strangers, and those who do not look like us will always be looked upon warily, it’s instinctive now after so many years of it in the past. Some people can resist their instinct and give everyone a chance, others can’t.

    And as said above, the jump to racism for every single thing that happens to a black person does not help. George Floyds death had nothing to do with racism. George Nkencho’s death had nothing to do with racism. His 15yo brother getting arrested for driving with no license, no insurance etc has nothing to do with racism. Yet you’ll get the same Twitter idiots like Chu and her followers jumping on it and screaming racism no matter what. It’s diluted all meaning.

    I’m 39 now, if someone had called me a racist between the ages of 18-30 I’d have been upset and worried about clearing my name, if somewhere said it now I’d laugh it off. Because now racist just means we’re talking about someone black or an incident relating to someone who is black and I don’t agree with the person I’m talking to. Especially on boards.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,557 ✭✭✭LeBash


    No, it won't end. Why someone's skin colour would upset someone is beyond me. I do somewhat agree that the word racist being lightly throw about has disarmed the ugliness of a racism as a poster above pointed out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,546 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    How racism has developed over the years is largely down to the makeup of the family's hierarchies down through the generations.

    If people were born in a much older era when compared to now in the present day; the stark differences in how racism was expressed from that particular period of time up to now can be quite heartbreaking. Many many centuries ago; black people in America were not immune to prevent themselves from becoming slaves to white people of their generations from days gone by. Racism, brought on by slavery back then, being expressed from one race to the other was by and large seen as an essential norm by the ruling classes in those days.

    But when you look at the impact of racism today; it's still here with us while we see ignorant people express powerful and emotional messages of hate to their common man who will never be the same as them. But the people who express these less visible messages of hatred and discrimination towards these groups can be hard to swallow in this country. You could see these people in day to day life today working in normal jobs being normal people among the rest of society. But there is an undercurrent of racists out there who are within that category who can be quite nasty to others when the victims don't expect it.

    Now imagine that man being talked about in the OP was actually working here with a decent career & reputation among his colleagues. And then outside of the workplace in a personal capacity; he has the gall within himself to secretly express his nasty racist undertones to other different people who are actually not blind to see the ignorance come out of his own mouth. How could people here feel about it if that was the case? What could people here say about hearing those racist messages unfold right in front of their eyes? Could they say that he was a dickhead or a scumbag to quieten his ignorant demeanour?

    Or could you have people expressing praise to him because they were brought up in the same ilk as the racist? If you asked which one could be more shocking then the other. It's definitely the latter because that is how racism will never end in this country or in any other country. It will stick with the assholes as they know they can use it to beat someone verbally by expressing it because they can use it properly without seeing the consequences.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    No, because it's human nature to be one better than everyone else, and some people will do anything to get that. It all stems from greed, so in order to end racism, and hapes of other human issues, greed needs to be eliminated. Which will never, ever, ever, ever happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,108 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Is greed an inherent part of humans personality though? Is it naturally there or a learned trait?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ^Not sure that greed is the issue. What is inherent, written into our biology and later described as human nature, is that we are hierarchical pack animals. Racism is one way (among many) of asserting membership/position in the pack(s).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,844 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    I might agree with you that there is a certain aspect of fear of the unknown innate to humans.

    But can anyone use that to excuse racist taunting and abuse at sports events for example. Is it fear making grown men make monkey chants and throw banana's at sports people they dislike?



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Racism will never end, so long as people make excuses for it

    'humans are inherently tribal' etc. It's always been like that, it's in our DNA etc etc.

    Also, so long as they try to downplay it,

    'ginger people get abuse too ' like racism is just name calling.

    people making excuses for racism behaviours are as bad as the racist people.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    The old nature/nurture debate. Which oft becomes political of late. For me anyway it's not an either/or thing, on the personal or societal level. We're neither blank slates nor gene robots. To figure which side a trait lays I would suggest looking at that trait across societies and human history. If it's present in some and not in others then it's likely learned, if it's consistently present across societies throughout history then it's likely inherent.

    Greed as a concept seems to arise when populations grow and springs out of resources and competition for same. In a small band of hunter gatherers you can have a greedless society. Indeed greed would be selected against, at least within such a society. The second there's a competition for resources with another small band all bets are off. When we first started to move into bigger urban populations and civilisation sprang up we accepted it as a problem and codified against it in law, organised religion and folk tales. Of course at the same time those who controlled the laws, religion and folk tales tended to display the worst vices of the same trait. Do as I say, not as I do. A very human trait. These days it can be seen in multi squilionaire flim stars flying around in private jets lecturing the plebs on climate change and the need to consume less.

    Racism, or rather a tendency to see belonging and by extension not belonging to a group which can and does come out in racism, is also present in every single culture and society on the planet since god was a boy. Outside the gates are the barbarians, the pagans, the other, the lesser, the feared.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Identifying a problem is not the same as condoning or excusing it. So when I say 'we are hierarchical pack animals' and suggest that this is the source of prejudice based on skin colour, it is not with a shrug of the shoulders, it is with disappointment at the intractable and long journey ahead to eliminate that prejudice. Eliminating it will not be simple, and even we 'cure racism' that effort will be for nought unless we address the ground of the problem (that we are hierarchical pack animals) otherwise a new way of establishing position in the pack will emerge --e.g. in classless communist societies new hierarchies of poower and wealth emerged. These problems won't be cured by liberal sticking of fingers in ears and shouting 'make it stop.'



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I think there are two aspects to this; explanation for something/excuse for something. Some use the former to cover the latter. I wouldn't. The example you give is well out of order, but sadly it happens and there are explanations for it. It's easier to just say ah well they're scumbags and come to one conclusion or the other depending on whether someone is an optimist or a pessimist. We can educate the scumbags(nurture), or we'll always have scumbags(nature). I'm not so sure there is an answer to such a complex set of questions, so I suppose I'm more on the pessimistic side and reckon we can educate some scumbags, but we'll always have them.

    If we ignore the clear realities of thousands of cultures over thousands of years, all we're left with is wishful thinking naivety. If wishes were horses beggars would ride.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,793 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Humans are pattern recognition machines and all races, creeds and classes,looks, abilities engage in it, so the next generation is right around the corner.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,164 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover


    People are people. Are all different and, as a result, you will always have a**holes. As others have said, prejudice has and will always exist. There will always be people who hate people of different colour. There will always be homophobes. There will always be people who hate Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Athiests etc.

    There will always be people who think it's OK and non-impactful to make fun of people because of their race, their gender, their height, weight, hair colour, sexual preference, age. Basically if you are different from the norm (Whatever that is).

    It's not an Irish thing. It's a global thing and anyone who thinks that it's more prevalent in Ireland than other places clearly has never lived abroad or even watched the news.


    Nobody is perfect. Everyone - and I mean everyone - when they really look deep down, will find their own prejudices: It may be a fear of Muslims, or a distrust of the Travelller community or a general dislike of the LGBTQ community. I know I certainly have my own opinions that would be considered prejudiced.

    Some forms of prejudice are more accepted than others. Are even considered funny. Tell me it's acceptable to abuse the fat kid or the skinny kid or the tall kid or the short kid or the ginger kid.

    People may say this is an excuse or a "Get out of jail" card but it's not. It doesn't make prejudice right and it doesn't release our obligation to try our best to not be a**holes but it does mean that it will always ALWAYS be here.

    So yeah, unfortunately, as long as there are people there will be prejudiced people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,844 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber



    Murder will always exist. But that doesn't stop us striving to reduce it to the absolute minimum we can possibly achieve.

    Racism is the same can we eliminate in all humans all racist thought for ever? No.

    Should we stop trying to reduce how acceptable many types of racism is in many circles of modern society even today in Ireland? No.

    Racism is wrong, no matter your personal feelings on whether that is a "nature or nurture" issue. We have the tools within education and legislation to reduce both the amount and the type of Racism that is acceptable in society today. All right thinking people should aspire to minimise the impact racism has on those around us and anything else is allowing racism to thrive were there is no need.


    Racism is wrong and it should be called out in all its forms all the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,793 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Murder is clear, and obvious racism is obvious but its turning into a religion as a gift and a weird type of virtue signalling puritanism like Scientology except the Thetans are now "cultural appropriation" and all the other nonsense (see wokism of the day thread) which ironically could create more actual racism just so that people can have the quiet life

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,844 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Your opening statement doesn't even pass much muster at all.

    Murder is not always clear and obvious otherwise court proceedings in cases of homicide would be much easier than at present.

    There are many types of very overt and obvious racism that can be tackled very easily. I have already pointed out racism in sporting arenas. There are many people present who witness and allow that racism to happen so it can be tackled and it can be stopped. It just requires people to stop it.


    As for the use of the classic "virtue signalling" misdirection crap 🤣🤣 give over will ya.

    Next you will be saying trying to stop racism is cancelling your culture. 🙄



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