Smart meter opt out

Supernintento Chalmers · 19-02-2021 1:46am

air wrote: »

It's free to switch to a night rate tariff currently, not sure there has ever been a charge for the actual switch. Your standing charge does increase.

It is, but not vice-versa.
There's not charge for getting a smart meter.

jimmycrackcorm · 19-02-2021 1:54am

Ironically smart meters could probably be 'foiled' by wrapping them with the customers tin foil hat.

Supernintento Chalmers · 19-02-2021 1:56am

km991148 wrote: »

yeah look - its not a conspiracy - its just the usual mix of:

a) will the system be secure (probably not as security costs money)
b) will your data be secure (again, probably as secure as you would like)
b) Will the system be exploited to some degree while the energy companies work out ways to further monetise (including the ability to cut people off).

You only need to look across the Atlantic to see currently how energy companies are screwing over the consumers.

and that's it.. just another ****ty stick for the the end user to take (while paying through the nose for it).

1. Even if you ended up with a smart meter, you can just ask for it to not provide smart services, so it'll virtually be an old-fashioned meter, giving no additional data.

2. Probably not that securely, but you can always have it all deleted under GDPR.
It's just electricity usage data, unless you've a cannabis plantation on the go, I don't see why you'd care who has access to that data.

3. Energy companies will try to make money, it's allowed. They can achieve that while also encouraging people to use less power off-peak, hopefully leading to a national reduction in peak usage and a reduction to the problems that go with peak demand.

TheChizler · 19-02-2021 2:59am

Supernintento Chalmers wrote: »

2. Probably not that securely, but you can always have it all deleted under GDPR.
It's just electricity usage data, unless you've a cannabis plantation on the go, I don't see why you'd care who has access to that data.

I used to think like that but realistically there's huge potential for harm depending on who gets access to the data and how granular it is. From a power profile you could tell with a high degree of accuracy what kind of devices you're using, when you shower, when you're relaxing in the evenings, gone to work or on holidays. Stuff you'd previously have to sit outside a target house to know all available over a network at a massive scale. It's unlikely for something to happen but I would want to be sure there are safeguards in place to prevent that data getting out either accidentally or maliciously.

That said Google and whoever already have access to this data and most of us don't really care.

beachhead · 19-02-2021 3:10am

ted1 wrote: »

Let’s not forget we have the toughest data protection. rules and commission on Europe. Possibly the world.

Your concerns are not really valid

Bit of a joke here.Enforcement? One small office over a Centra shop in Portlaoise(the hq + 2 other locations,gov not interested in funding.All in all a joke)

beachhead · 19-02-2021 3:11am

coylemj wrote: »

Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. The principal reasons for rolling out smart meters is so that variable tariffs (based on time of day) can be applied to people who only have a single meter.

The underlying motive is to flatten the demand curve, especially during the peak period in the late afternoon/early evening (5-7) when (in normal times) offices are still open, children are home from school and a lot of people are home from work. Charging peak rates during this period (when your smart meter shows 'T3') will be designed to discourage people from using the likes of dishwashers and washing machines until later in the day.

Eliminating or reducing spikes in demand will result in reductions in the amount of power required in the grid, this will yield savings in power generation and reductions in CO2 emissions. And will require less new generation infrastructure. All of which will be a positive development.

Chewing the publicity release by the corporates.Nice

beachhead · 19-02-2021 3:12am

Flatten the curve.Isn't that covid

ted1 · 02-03-2021 3:36pm

Some details here on the new plans. https://www.electricireland.ie/smart-meters/home-electric-plus

riclad · 02-03-2021 4:10pm

Smart meters mean no more estimated bills,
if you are worried about privacy throw away your phone, dont walk into a shop , most shops have camera,s ,
theres security camera,s on most streets.
a smart meter is the least of your worrys in terms of privacy
And of course most people have smartphones with hd camera,s.
i don,t think theres any communication between the esb and social welfare ,
apart from having to provide a utility bill to prove you are resident at the adress where you registered to make a claim
The point of smart meters is reduced billing costs and maybe to encourage people to use electricity at off peak hours by providing you with more info
about your power usage.
So of course at some point all the old meters will be replaced.
thats the future ,everything will have an app, if theres any device that
can send data through a network it will do so if it provides cost savings
in customer service and billing.

km991148 · 02-03-2021 4:17pm

riclad wrote: »

Smart meters mean no more estimated bills,
if you are worried about privacy throw away your phone, dont walk into a shop , most shops have camera,s ,
theres security camera,s on most streets.
a smart meter is the least of your worrys in terms of privacy
And of course most people have smartphones with hd camera,s.
i don,t think theres any communication between the esb and social welfare ,
apart from having to provide a utility bill to prove you are resident at the adress where you registered to make a claim
The point of smart meters is reduced billing costs and maybe to encourage people to use electricity at off peak hours by providing you with more info
about your power usage.
So of course at some point all the old meters will be replaced.
thats the future ,everything will have an app, if theres any device that
can send data through a network it will do so if it provides cost savings
in customer service and billing.

Well you've convinced me to not worry about the continual erosion of privacy and the security of data pertaining to me :rolleyes:

I think its perfectly valid to be concerned about how companies store and process data and the reasons for which they use them without sounding like a complete nut job. However, considering most people don't care and aren't currently impacted then its fighting a loosing battle.

By the time that enough rights are eroded and enough decisions are automated to impact enough people then it will be too late to do anything about it.

Besides the main issue will probably be around pricing and not so much the privacy. Those struggling to pay will be cut off quicker and those wanting to use electricity at peak times (i.e. cook some food between 5 and 7pm will be charged a fortune to do so (sorry, will be encouraged to look for more green ways to use power, not at all profiteering).

Alun · 02-03-2021 4:52pm

km991148 wrote: »

Besides the main issue will probably be around pricing and not so much the privacy. Those struggling to pay will be cut off quicker and those wanting to use electricity at peak times (i.e. cook some food between 5 and 7pm will be charged a fortune to do so (sorry, will be encouraged to look for more green ways to use power, not at all profiteering).

I agree. There's a reason why peak times are peak times and in the case of our main usage of electricity, cooking, there's little I can do about it. I'm also not planning on using noisy appliances like the washing machines or dishwasher at night as I live in a bungalow and am a very light sleeper, not to mention the fire safety aspect of it all.

KCross · 02-03-2021 5:05pm

km991148 wrote: »

Well you've convinced me to not worry about the continual erosion of privacy and the security of data pertaining to me :rolleyes:

I think its perfectly valid to be concerned about how companies store and process data and the reasons for which they use them without sounding like a complete nut job. However, considering most people don't care and aren't currently impacted then its fighting a loosing battle.

By the time that enough rights are eroded and enough decisions are automated to impact enough people then it will be too late to do anything about it.

You're worried about skynet basically!

Being serious, I get your point, and everyone should be worried about the sharing of their data. What might seem inocuous can actually be really useful to IT companies. Voter manipulation being the most recent examples of that.

I think in the context of this thread, you can opt out of the sharing some of your data if you are really concerned but ultimately you are using the service and you need to be billed for it so you have to accept that or else go off-grid!

Its also not like this is an Ireland nanny state thing... its being done all over the world because electricity generation is an important resource that needs to be managed better.

km991148 wrote: »

Besides the main issue will probably be around pricing and not so much the privacy. Those struggling to pay will be cut off quicker and those wanting to use electricity at peak times (i.e. cook some food between 5 and 7pm will be charged a fortune to do so (sorry, will be encouraged to look for more green ways to use power, not at all profiteering).

Thats exactly the point of it... reduce the peaks. That fact isnt being hidden. It doesnt stop you from cooking the dinner at that time just you will pay more for it.... they want to change peoples behavior... usually money is the common denominator that people understand!

coylemj · 02-03-2021 5:22pm

ted1 wrote: »

Some details here on the new plans. https://www.electricireland.ie/smart-meters/home-electric-plus

I'm surprised that Electric Ireland is promising a 'super cheap “boost” period from 2-4 a.m, for just over 5c per kwh'.

Because the regulator has specified that there will be just three charging periods which includes a single night rate covering 11 p.m. to 8 a.m. Peak will be from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. and the day rate from 8 a.m. to 11 p.m., excluding peak.

I know they will have the data (your consumption will be reported for each 30 minutes interval) but what they're suggesting is in direct contravention of official policy.

Alun · 02-03-2021 5:29pm

KCross wrote: »

Thats exactly the point of it... reduce the peaks. That fact isnt being hidden. It doesnt stop you from cooking the dinner at that time just you will pay more for it.... they want to change peoples behavior... usually money is the common denominator that people understand!

The fact is though most people eat their evening meal at that time, for a good reason, so that they don't end up eating only a few hours before they go to bed which is bad for your digestion and sleep.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-03-2021 6:25pm

Get a gas cooker

KCross · 02-03-2021 6:42pm

Alun wrote: »

The fact is though most people eat their evening meal at that time, for a good reason, so that they don't end up eating only a few hours before they go to bed which is bad for your digestion and sleep.

I wouldnt argue with your meal times!

There is more involved though than just the oven which would be on for a relatively short period of time in those 2hrs as it cuts in and out.

For instance, more and more homes will have heat pumps and electric cars as we go forward. You can very easily stop those from drawing power during those key peak periods and both of those are really energy hungry and pull full power when on.

If you dont stop that from happening the peak will just get higher and higher as EV's and heat pumps become more and more popular.... thats really bad for all of us.

Another example would be a shower or an immersion.... really hungry devices.... easy to delay those outside the peak time. If there is no incentive to delay them then people will do nothing and let all those devices run during the peak time.

Does it mean your oven cost will go up if you always cook between 5-7pm... yes, there is nearly always a downside.

Sleeper12 · 02-03-2021 7:16pm

Free weekend electricity for customers with a smart meter

https://amp-independent-ie.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/bord-gais-to-offer-free-weekend-electricity-for-homes-with-smart-meters-40144394.html?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=16147068374049&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fbusiness%2Fpersonal-finance%2Fbord-gais-to-offer-free-weekend-electricity-for-homes-with-smart-meters-40144394.html

ted1 · 02-03-2021 8:37pm

km991148 wrote: »

Besides the main issue will probably be around pricing and not so much the privacy. Those struggling to pay will be cut off quicker and those wanting to use electricity at peak times (i.e. cook some food between 5 and 7pm will be charged a fortune to do so (sorry, will be encouraged to look for more green ways to use power, not at all profiteering).

I suggest you look at how the electricity market works in Ireland. The wholesale price shoots up during peak hours. Your electricity provider buys at that price. They are not profiteering, probably making the same mark up. But what they can do is charge you cheaper no peak rate. As they won’t be subsidising the peak rate

Alun · 02-03-2021 9:35pm

From what I can see of Energia's new smart offers there appears to be actually very little difference between the peak and daytime off-peak rates, nowhere near the difference between those and night time rates anyway, so not much of a disincentive really.

Alun · 02-03-2021 9:36pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Get a gas cooker

No.

0lddog · 03-03-2021 12:29am

ted1 wrote: »

I suggest you look at how the electricity market works in Ireland. The wholesale price shoots up during peak hours. Your electricity provider buys at that price. They are not profiteering, probably making the same mark up. But what they can do is charge you cheaper no peak rate. As they won’t be subsidising the peak rate

So what next ?

Low income families think twice about cooking food, heating, TV when they get back from a days work ?

No thanks.

I'd prefer it the way it is.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-03-2021 3:39am

It's getting nearly as ridiculous as the hysteria over water charges was.

An oven doesn't actually use all that much electricity, and how many times a week do you do a roast dinner anyway?

ted1 · 03-03-2021 11:13am

0lddog wrote: »

So what next ?

Low income families think twice about cooking food, heating, TV when they get back from a days work ?

No thanks.

I'd prefer it the way it is.

They simply don't sign up for Time Of Use tariffs.
or if they are on low income, they sign up and can save energy,

for a start using electricity for heating isn't the most economical, unless its a heat pump, and if it is the house should be well insulated so knocking it off for 2 hours shouldn't make a difference. if its storage heaters, they shouldn't be running during the day. for other electric heating they could simply turn it down for two hours but really look at alternatives.

electric shower, dish washers, tumble dryers, dehumidifiers etc. can easily be left off during peak hours.

You may have preferred it the way it was, but that involved bruign fossil fuels, destroying the planet and causing many people to suffer for lung diseases etc.

Our power system has changed its o longer large fossil plants, its distributed RES and a reducing number of thermal plants. Things chnage get used to it.
our

John.G · 03-03-2021 11:48am

Would it be correct to assume that eventually, that the customer will be able to view present usage (power) etc with a app from these meters?.

KCross · 03-03-2021 12:03pm

John.G wrote: »

Would it be correct to assume that eventually, that the customer will be able to view present usage (power) etc with a app from these meters?.

Yes, thats in the plan but I'm not sure if its an app or a static device that you put on your counter that connects to it.

Alun · 03-03-2021 4:50pm

John.G wrote: »

Would it be correct to assume that eventually, that the customer will be able to view present usage (power) etc with a app from these meters?.

That's the idea, although it's only at half hourly intervals as far as I can see, not instantaneous usage, so an energy monitor would actually be more useful in that regard. Also it would appear that you can't access that information unless you're already on a smart plan.

coylemj · 04-03-2021 5:32pm

John.G wrote: »

Would it be correct to assume that eventually, that the customer will be able to view present usage (power) etc with a app from these meters?.

Yes, you will be able to see your usage, broken down to 30 minutes intervals. But it won't come direct from the meter, you will get an app to query the usage database from either your supplier or Electric Ireland (who install and read the meters).

The meters will send the data to Electric Ireland via old-fashioned (2G) SMS text messages over the 3 Ireland network. Your home wi-fi will not be involved.

irishgeo · 06-03-2021 6:44pm

Anyone requested a smartmeter install from the esb?

TheBigEvil · 21-06-2021 2:08pm

Ours was installed late last year, and we we're never asked if we wanted it. And over the last number of months we have noticed a low, faint, humming noise, especially at night, that was never there before. Certainly does not seem to be anything obvious, external to the house, but is certainly within the house. Im not saying it is specifically the Smart Meter, but certainly has only appeared in the last number of months. We have even turned off the mains (from the consumer Unit), to try and eliminate an electrical device within the house being the cause, but the noise is still there. Has anyone that got a smart meter noticed anything like that?

Has anyone that has had a smart meter installed then got it removed? If so, do you just contact the ESB to get them to put you previous one back in?

hawthorne · 21-06-2021 5:08pm

TheBigEvil wrote: »

Ours was installed late last year, and we we're never asked if we wanted it. And over the last number of months we have noticed a low, faint, humming noise, especially at night, that was never there before. Certainly does not seem to be anything obvious, external to the house, but is certainly within the house. Im not saying it is specifically the Smart Meter, but certainly has only appeared in the last number of months. We have even turned off the mains (from the consumer Unit), to try and eliminate an electrical device within the house being the cause, but the noise is still there. Has anyone that got a smart meter noticed anything like that?

Has anyone that has had a smart meter installed then got it removed? If so, do you just contact the ESB to get them to put you previous one back in?

There are no analogue meters produced anymore. And the ESB won't put back the old one either- even if you still have kept it undamaged somewhere safe.
I would contact the ESB and tell them about the humming noise. Hopefully they will come and investigate.

Terry.. · 21-06-2021 6:58pm

Can someone summarize the changes with a smart meter

A 3rd peak tariff

Free weekend hours ?

Smart monitoring and graphs etc.

How is the monitoring and graphs done , how does it all work ?

Sleeper12 · 21-06-2021 7:05pm

Terry.. wrote:

Free weekend hours ?

Some are offering one weekend day free electricity per week at the moment. Eventually they may offer 5 or 6 different rates throughout the day and night.

Longterm I'm expecting peak rates to increase but with options for reducing rates off peak.

RingSting · 02-09-2021 3:58pm

If you think a smart meter will save you money you are a fool.

Just look at the tariffs !

Rip off

longcock · 02-09-2021 7:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117838548#Comment_117838548

Spot on RingSting, and wait until the government sell the ESB and some bean counter in an office at the other side of the globe decides they could do with more revenue from us Paddy's and he adds another 4 or 5 units on to each smart every month, million and half smart meters means a nice cool €1million+ a month for doing nothing and us consumers won't even notice it and that's just the start.

RingSting · 03-09-2021 8:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/111329589#Comment_111329589

Why are you happy to pay more for the same usage ?

Why cant I keep my current tariff and get a smart meter is a better question.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2021 10:14am

I got a smart meter - tariff hasn't changed.

It'd be nice if the alarmism and conspiracies were at least vaguely based on some sort of facts for a change...

The government is not going to sell off the ESB, it's strategic national infrastructure, and you don't buy your energy from them anyway.

AndrewJRenko · 03-09-2021 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839332#Comment_117839332

FG would have sold off ESB as part of their massive planned sell off in 2011, if they had done a deal with Ross and the independents.

Can't you still take a manual read on your meter?

longcock · 03-09-2021 5:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117842113#Comment_117842113

Yes you still will be able to take a manual reading.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2021 8:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117842113#Comment_117842113

How do you claim to know they would have? It was never in anyone's manifesto afaik. Same as all that selling off Irish Water bollocks.

AndrewJRenko · 03-09-2021 8:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843806#Comment_117843806

Their manifesto plan was to sell off 4 billion of state assets. Where would you find 4 billion in assets (2011 prices) without including ESB?

Bobeagleburger · 03-09-2021 8:36pm

Current day/night still a much better alternative than a smart meter.

Will refuse a smart meter until tariffs are more competitive.

astrofool · 03-09-2021 9:21pm

The exact same plans are available on a smart meter as a regular meter, there is just more options on a smart meter.

The non smart plans will eventually be priced enough above the smart plans that it won't make sense to use them, those with an old meter and refusing to budge (which they can't do as ESB Networks both own the meter and have the right to access it) will always be paying more.

Kramer · 03-09-2021 9:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844001#Comment_117844001

EV owners are understandably very savvy when it comes to electricity costs & they say smart meter rates are dearer than current day/night meter rates. None would accept a smart meter - even the very affluent Tesla owners! Why would they? Why would anyone want to pay over the odds for electricity? It's dear enough as it is.

03-09-2021 9:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/111329849#Comment_111329849

But it won’t. Nothing is ever reduced.

astrofool · 03-09-2021 10:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844055#Comment_117844055

You're conflating smart tariffs with smart meters, the smart meters have the same tariffs available (all day, day/night) as the old meters, the meters don't make a slight bit of difference here.

I had mine changed over a few months back, same cost per unit, same standing charge before as afterwards, I could have chosen a new smart plan, but I didn't, but now I can access my usage data on an hourly breakdown.

AndrewJRenko · 03-09-2021 10:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844329#Comment_117844329

Where are you getting the hourly breakdown from?

Kramer · 05-09-2021 8:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844329#Comment_117844329

smart meters have the same tariffs available (all day, day/night) as the old meters, the meters don't make a slight bit of difference here

They don't though. You can't avail of many of the cheaper tariffs currently available on a day/night meter, if you have a smart meter. They are simply not available to you.

Check the EV car forum - it's been discussed there in detail. If you have a smart meter now, you are likely paying more for your electricity.

Regarding being forced to accept a smart meter, at present, you're not.

Ger Roe · 05-09-2021 9:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116462670#Comment_116462670

This info is readily available already. I have a device that cost me €15 that lets me know exactly how much electricity I am using and how much it costs me - battery operated cable clamp device at the incoming meter and wireless monitor receiver in the house. They were actually given out free by many energy providers in Europe as a supplier switchover incentive. I have been using my counter top device to monitor my usage for about seven years. No big deal, but a lot of hype will be generated to achieve smart meter buy in by adding apps that do what already can be easily done.

Bottom line from my monitoring over the years......... we are and will continue paying more for using less electricity no matter how many saving measures you introduce around your home. The consumer will always have to work harder to negate price rises, rather than simply taking advantage of supposed cost saving measures. Like the tables in Vegas, the service provider always has the advantage.

The currently offered smart meter tariffs offer no advantage to me as a conservative user, without an electric car to charge overnight. Although I have a smart meter, there is currently no incentive for me to change to the currently offered 'saver' rates, as an already very low level user. Case in point being where your daytime/normal/whatever they call it, rate is increased, so you can avail of the lower rate time periods offered. Unless you have a viable amount of high use devices that you can run at inconvenient hours, you are not going to save.

If you are already sensible and knowledgeable about your electricity usage, the marketing ploys of presenting smart meter tariffs of marginal benefit, are all just smoke and mirrors. They really need to do better...... but they won't.

astrofool · 05-09-2021 10:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844464#Comment_117844464

It's all on the electric Ireland site (at least for me), I had one of the cable clamp devices before but this is handier.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848628#Comment_117848628

I'm unsure what the EV owners are doing, but if they didn't say they were installing the smart meter, it wouldn't be noticed, literally everything is the same before and after. It sounds like another one of those Irish things where people are afraid of change and looking for reasons to stay as they are via fear mongering.

Ger Roe · 05-09-2021 10:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848760#Comment_117848760

I don't people are afraid of change for what it is.... they are afraid of it being used to their disadvantage and that is a very real fear - probably a certainty.

Smart meters and a range of cost saving tariffs , only work where there is a large enough consumer base in a competitive and innovative marketplace. We have none of those necessary criteria in this country.

The same principles apply for the provision of insurance and broadband and what do we see here?.... the same consumers also being taken advantage of.

Smart meter opt out

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