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Smart meter opt out

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Comments



  • coylemj wrote: »
    Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. The principal reasons for rolling out smart meters is so that variable tariffs (based on time of day) can be applied to people who only have a single meter.

    The underlying motive is to flatten the demand curve, especially during the peak period in the late afternoon/early evening (5-7) when (in normal times) offices are still open, children are home from school and a lot of people are home from work. Charging peak rates during this period (when your smart meter shows 'T3') will be designed to discourage people from using the likes of dishwashers and washing machines until later in the day.

    Eliminating or reducing spikes in demand will result in reductions in the amount of power required in the grid, this will yield savings in power generation and reductions in CO2 emissions. And will require less new generation infrastructure. All of which will be a positive development.

    That's fair enough - but I can still see why some people would refuse them - as the powers that be (I mean energy companies etc not some secret lizard cabal) will act like cheap ass opportunistic bar-stewards and pay scant attention to data security and shoehorn in a bunch of self serving "features".

    Lets not pretend that energy companies are really interested in either (a) selling less energy or (b) the consumer.




  • KCross wrote: »
    And we are paying €1b to deploy these smart meters... a billion, not a million! :eek:

    I like the idea of the smart meters and I dont buy into the conspiracy theory stuff on here, but the cost is eye watering for what it actually returns.

    yeah look - its not a conspiracy - its just the usual mix of:

    a) will the system be secure (probably not as security costs money)
    b) will your data be secure (again, probably as secure as you would like)
    b) Will the system be exploited to some degree while the energy companies work out ways to further monetise (including the ability to cut people off).

    You only need to look across the Atlantic to see currently how energy companies are screwing over the consumers.

    and that's it.. just another ****ty stick for the the end user to take (while paying through the nose for it).




  • coylemj wrote: »
    Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. The principal reasons for rolling out smart meters is so that variable tariffs (based on time of day) can be applied to people who only have a single meter.

    The underlying motive is to flatten the demand curve, especially during the peak period in the late afternoon/early evening (5-7) when (in normal times) offices are still open, children are home from school and a lot of people are home from work. Charging peak rates during this period (when your smart meter shows 'T3') will be designed to discourage people from using the likes of dishwashers and washing machines until later in the day.

    Eliminating or reducing spikes in demand will result in reductions in the amount of power required in the grid, this will yield savings in power generation and reductions in CO2 emissions. And will require less new generation infrastructure. All of which will be a positive development.

    They could have implemented the peak rate with a regular digital meter could they not?

    I remember when the digital meters first came in c. 15-20 yrs ago they had a T1 and a T2 plus a T1+T2 readouts if I recall.


    What would be the main reasons leaving aside the 'big brother' possibilities?

    Remote meter readings..

    Remote change of tarriffs..

    Remote disconnection ...

    Remote Real-time readouts

    Consumer smart readings, usage ,billing, etc

    Off the top of my head , could be off on some of them




  • km991148 wrote: »
    That's fair enough - but I can still see why some people would refuse them - as the powers that be (I mean energy companies etc not some secret lizard cabal) will act like cheap ass opportunistic bar-stewards and pay scant attention to data security and shoehorn in a bunch of self serving "features".

    Lets not pretend that energy companies are really interested in either (a) selling less energy or (b) the consumer.

    Let’s not forget we have the toughest data protection. rules and commission on Europe. Possibly the world.

    Your concerns are not really valid




  • im surprised all you tech heads have not factored in the main reason you dont want one...who do you think is paying for the calls the smartmeter sim is making to relay all this information back to base? and if it runs on wifi, well thats assuming you have wifi and again theyre using yours, not theirs.
    and as for chips in our heads, sure theyre injecting it in with the vaccines :)


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  • ted1 wrote: »
    Let’s not forget we have the toughest data protection. rules and commission on Europe. Possibly the world.

    Your concerns are not really valid

    yeah ok.. My 20+ years industry experience tells me different..

    A slap on the wrist fine from a toothless regulator for a data breech is not a deterrent*, rather just the cost of doing business (i.e. the cheapest of doing something correctly vs not having to bother).

    I would go and find a whole lot of examples and pasted them here, but a 2 second google will back me up here..

    Meanwhile, feel free to enjoy the 'benefits' you get from downloading some crappy half arsed phone app that drains your battery and requires GPS and every other permission..



    *(In fairness fines have increased, but I am not sure its enough to make a real difference, not when you consider the numbers involved)




  • km991148 wrote: »
    I would go and find a whole lot of examples and pasted them here, but a 2 second google will back me up here..

    Will it now?

    A 2 second Google search will also get you proof of the existence of the Loch Ness Monster.




  • On the old systems one just read the white numbers.

    Whatever about displaying a decimal point how is one supposed to monitor their usage if the load isn't displayed?, do you not think it just might be "smart" to do so except that there is some technical reason for it?, maybe the smart people who design them do so for dumb customers.




  • coylemj wrote: »
    Will it now?

    A 2 second Google search will also get you proof of the existence of the Loch Ness Monster.

    Cute :-)

    But you know the point I'm making. Data breaches happen all the time. There is no real deterant. No real need to try and undermine the point if you don't agree with it?




  • You can't take regulation in isolation

    Regulation, enforcement, compliance ,breaches,


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  • air wrote: »
    It's free to switch to a night rate tariff currently, not sure there has ever been a charge for the actual switch. Your standing charge does increase.

    It is, but not vice-versa.
    There's not charge for getting a smart meter.




  • Ironically smart meters could probably be 'foiled' by wrapping them with the customers tin foil hat.




  • km991148 wrote: »
    yeah look - its not a conspiracy - its just the usual mix of:

    a) will the system be secure (probably not as security costs money)
    b) will your data be secure (again, probably as secure as you would like)
    b) Will the system be exploited to some degree while the energy companies work out ways to further monetise (including the ability to cut people off).

    You only need to look across the Atlantic to see currently how energy companies are screwing over the consumers.

    and that's it.. just another ****ty stick for the the end user to take (while paying through the nose for it).

    1. Even if you ended up with a smart meter, you can just ask for it to not provide smart services, so it'll virtually be an old-fashioned meter, giving no additional data.

    2. Probably not that securely, but you can always have it all deleted under GDPR.
    It's just electricity usage data, unless you've a cannabis plantation on the go, I don't see why you'd care who has access to that data.

    3. Energy companies will try to make money, it's allowed. They can achieve that while also encouraging people to use less power off-peak, hopefully leading to a national reduction in peak usage and a reduction to the problems that go with peak demand.




  • 2. Probably not that securely, but you can always have it all deleted under GDPR.
    It's just electricity usage data, unless you've a cannabis plantation on the go, I don't see why you'd care who has access to that data.
    I used to think like that but realistically there's huge potential for harm depending on who gets access to the data and how granular it is. From a power profile you could tell with a high degree of accuracy what kind of devices you're using, when you shower, when you're relaxing in the evenings, gone to work or on holidays. Stuff you'd previously have to sit outside a target house to know all available over a network at a massive scale. It's unlikely for something to happen but I would want to be sure there are safeguards in place to prevent that data getting out either accidentally or maliciously.

    That said Google and whoever already have access to this data and most of us don't really care.




  • ted1 wrote: »
    Let’s not forget we have the toughest data protection. rules and commission on Europe. Possibly the world.

    Your concerns are not really valid

    Bit of a joke here.Enforcement? One small office over a Centra shop in Portlaoise(the hq + 2 other locations,gov not interested in funding.All in all a joke)




  • coylemj wrote: »
    Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. The principal reasons for rolling out smart meters is so that variable tariffs (based on time of day) can be applied to people who only have a single meter.

    The underlying motive is to flatten the demand curve, especially during the peak period in the late afternoon/early evening (5-7) when (in normal times) offices are still open, children are home from school and a lot of people are home from work. Charging peak rates during this period (when your smart meter shows 'T3') will be designed to discourage people from using the likes of dishwashers and washing machines until later in the day.

    Eliminating or reducing spikes in demand will result in reductions in the amount of power required in the grid, this will yield savings in power generation and reductions in CO2 emissions. And will require less new generation infrastructure. All of which will be a positive development.
    Chewing the publicity release by the corporates.Nice




  • Flatten the curve.Isn't that covid








  • Smart meters mean no more estimated bills,
    if you are worried about privacy throw away your phone, dont walk into a shop , most shops have camera,s ,
    theres security camera,s on most streets.
    a smart meter is the least of your worrys in terms of privacy
    And of course most people have smartphones with hd camera,s.
    i don,t think theres any communication between the esb and social welfare ,
    apart from having to provide a utility bill to prove you are resident at the adress where you registered to make a claim
    The point of smart meters is reduced billing costs and maybe to encourage people to use electricity at off peak hours by providing you with more info
    about your power usage.
    So of course at some point all the old meters will be replaced.
    thats the future ,everything will have an app, if theres any device that
    can send data through a network it will do so if it provides cost savings
    in customer service and billing.




  • riclad wrote: »
    Smart meters mean no more estimated bills,
    if you are worried about privacy throw away your phone, dont walk into a shop , most shops have camera,s ,
    theres security camera,s on most streets.
    a smart meter is the least of your worrys in terms of privacy
    And of course most people have smartphones with hd camera,s.
    i don,t think theres any communication between the esb and social welfare ,
    apart from having to provide a utility bill to prove you are resident at the adress where you registered to make a claim
    The point of smart meters is reduced billing costs and maybe to encourage people to use electricity at off peak hours by providing you with more info
    about your power usage.
    So of course at some point all the old meters will be replaced.
    thats the future ,everything will have an app, if theres any device that
    can send data through a network it will do so if it provides cost savings
    in customer service and billing.

    Well you've convinced me to not worry about the continual erosion of privacy and the security of data pertaining to me :rolleyes:

    I think its perfectly valid to be concerned about how companies store and process data and the reasons for which they use them without sounding like a complete nut job. However, considering most people don't care and aren't currently impacted then its fighting a loosing battle.

    By the time that enough rights are eroded and enough decisions are automated to impact enough people then it will be too late to do anything about it.

    Besides the main issue will probably be around pricing and not so much the privacy. Those struggling to pay will be cut off quicker and those wanting to use electricity at peak times (i.e. cook some food between 5 and 7pm will be charged a fortune to do so (sorry, will be encouraged to look for more green ways to use power, not at all profiteering).


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  • km991148 wrote: »
    Besides the main issue will probably be around pricing and not so much the privacy. Those struggling to pay will be cut off quicker and those wanting to use electricity at peak times (i.e. cook some food between 5 and 7pm will be charged a fortune to do so (sorry, will be encouraged to look for more green ways to use power, not at all profiteering).
    I agree. There's a reason why peak times are peak times and in the case of our main usage of electricity, cooking, there's little I can do about it. I'm also not planning on using noisy appliances like the washing machines or dishwasher at night as I live in a bungalow and am a very light sleeper, not to mention the fire safety aspect of it all.




  • km991148 wrote: »
    Well you've convinced me to not worry about the continual erosion of privacy and the security of data pertaining to me :rolleyes:

    I think its perfectly valid to be concerned about how companies store and process data and the reasons for which they use them without sounding like a complete nut job. However, considering most people don't care and aren't currently impacted then its fighting a loosing battle.

    By the time that enough rights are eroded and enough decisions are automated to impact enough people then it will be too late to do anything about it.

    You're worried about skynet basically! ;)

    Being serious, I get your point, and everyone should be worried about the sharing of their data. What might seem inocuous can actually be really useful to IT companies. Voter manipulation being the most recent examples of that.


    I think in the context of this thread, you can opt out of the sharing some of your data if you are really concerned but ultimately you are using the service and you need to be billed for it so you have to accept that or else go off-grid!

    Its also not like this is an Ireland nanny state thing... its being done all over the world because electricity generation is an important resource that needs to be managed better.
    km991148 wrote: »
    Besides the main issue will probably be around pricing and not so much the privacy. Those struggling to pay will be cut off quicker and those wanting to use electricity at peak times (i.e. cook some food between 5 and 7pm will be charged a fortune to do so (sorry, will be encouraged to look for more green ways to use power, not at all profiteering).

    Thats exactly the point of it... reduce the peaks. That fact isnt being hidden. It doesnt stop you from cooking the dinner at that time just you will pay more for it.... they want to change peoples behavior... usually money is the common denominator that people understand! :)




  • ted1 wrote: »

    I'm surprised that Electric Ireland is promising a 'super cheap “boost” period from 2-4 a.m, for just over 5c per kwh'.

    Because the regulator has specified that there will be just three charging periods which includes a single night rate covering 11 p.m. to 8 a.m. Peak will be from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. and the day rate from 8 a.m. to 11 p.m., excluding peak.

    I know they will have the data (your consumption will be reported for each 30 minutes interval) but what they're suggesting is in direct contravention of official policy.




  • KCross wrote: »
    Thats exactly the point of it... reduce the peaks. That fact isnt being hidden. It doesnt stop you from cooking the dinner at that time just you will pay more for it.... they want to change peoples behavior... usually money is the common denominator that people understand! :)
    The fact is though most people eat their evening meal at that time, for a good reason, so that they don't end up eating only a few hours before they go to bed which is bad for your digestion and sleep.




  • Get a gas cooker

    Bring back the :pac: !





  • Alun wrote: »
    The fact is though most people eat their evening meal at that time, for a good reason, so that they don't end up eating only a few hours before they go to bed which is bad for your digestion and sleep.

    I wouldnt argue with your meal times!

    There is more involved though than just the oven which would be on for a relatively short period of time in those 2hrs as it cuts in and out.

    For instance, more and more homes will have heat pumps and electric cars as we go forward. You can very easily stop those from drawing power during those key peak periods and both of those are really energy hungry and pull full power when on.

    If you dont stop that from happening the peak will just get higher and higher as EV's and heat pumps become more and more popular.... thats really bad for all of us.

    Another example would be a shower or an immersion.... really hungry devices.... easy to delay those outside the peak time. If there is no incentive to delay them then people will do nothing and let all those devices run during the peak time.

    Does it mean your oven cost will go up if you always cook between 5-7pm... yes, there is nearly always a downside.




  • km991148 wrote: »
    Besides the main issue will probably be around pricing and not so much the privacy. Those struggling to pay will be cut off quicker and those wanting to use electricity at peak times (i.e. cook some food between 5 and 7pm will be charged a fortune to do so (sorry, will be encouraged to look for more green ways to use power, not at all profiteering).

    I suggest you look at how the electricity market works in Ireland. The wholesale price shoots up during peak hours. Your electricity provider buys at that price. They are not profiteering, probably making the same mark up. But what they can do is charge you cheaper no peak rate. As they won’t be subsidising the peak rate




  • From what I can see of Energia's new smart offers there appears to be actually very little difference between the peak and daytime off-peak rates, nowhere near the difference between those and night time rates anyway, so not much of a disincentive really.


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  • Get a gas cooker
    No.


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