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Are you concerned about the destruction of the natural world and climate change?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Unfortunately I share your sentiments. Humanity is collectively moronic , psychotically self destructive and incapable of collective long term agreed strategies to help our environment remain suitable for the greatest prosperity.


    I do agree with the sentiments of others who say “what can I do” as it can feel like even the small things we can do won’t make much difference , particularly as some are bigger polluters then others. But every little helps, we all need to not be polluters just because we think it’s not really that much in the scale of things.

    Society works as the majority of us live within the agreed rules/laws that are made. We need a similer understanding and social contract when it comes to our planet but I’m not sure we are capable of doing this without some sort of threat (war, financial etc).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,796 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Tax on everything increases the cost of it.... in theory, be it a service or product... if every business, say car dealerships said they didn’t want to pay tax on car sales, gyms because it health and fitness the same... suddenly every business / industry is paying SFA and its the man and woman on the street again who bare the brunt of keeping this country going.

    governments are unwilling to stand up to big business and corporations, that won’t change, their friends and family members and backers are of that ilk.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The Gulf Stream appears to have been slowing for 1600 years. Everything now has to be explained through the anthropogenic climate change lens, of course, so this inconvenient fact can now correctly be reinterpreted as it's having been 'destabilised' by ACC and recent slowing declared unnatural.

    The next ice age, if it happens fairly soon, will be said to have been caused by ACC and not by natural processes, even though the timing of it fits perfectly with the natural process pattern of past ice age events. It will be mere 'coincidence' that humans triggered it's onset to match perfectly with the data for prior events.

    By the way, global average temperatures usually increase substantially, very rapidly, just prior to the onset of ice ages, another astonishing coincidence, but recent increases in global temperature and the slowing of the gulf stream are both clearly due to human activity, even though they may look exactly like climate patterns that presaged past ice-age climate transitions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I’m always open to new information and healthy challenge of consensus. I’m not in the science field so have no more then a layman understanding of the man made climate change debate.

    At a basic level , dramatically changing your environment , including the gas levels in that environment would presumably have a compounded effect eventually. Don’t have to be a scientist to work that out, to what degree I imagine is the more pertinent question.

    These cycles you mention, I gather the information we have is incomplete. We may understand when different climate cycles have happened but we don’t always have the Complete picture. kind of like looking out into the stars and making assumptions like only earth like planets can have life and then learning that moons of planets can actually create environments for life well outside the Goldilocks zone.

    So in the absence of complete clarity it seems illogical to take such a bold stance of “man made climate change is not a factor”.


    But one thing I would ask is how are so many adopting the man made climate change hypothesis and that it is making a meaningful impact? If it’s not really relevant and this is mostly a natural process , where is the credible, peer reviewed information that clarifys otherwise? Why are these views apparently on the fringe of these debates? Are all people on the man made climate change side willing or unwitting participants of opportunistic entities/parties?

    Not all conspiracy’s (agenda by certain parties to push a certain narrative) are wrong but most are driven by distrust of authority and confirmation bias.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Apparently the IPCC report is going to tell us the 1.5c tipping point will be reached much sooner than expected. Early 2030s I think. The tech and models they have now since the last report in 2013 are a lot more accurate, apparently.

    Are we even doing anything to prepare in Ireland?



  • Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭Heraclius



    I guess a lot of raised sea walls will be needed unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Residents groups will block them like they did in clontarf



  • Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    Yes, I'm imagining a particular suburb of Dublin 4 would head back to the High Court too.

    I'm selfishly hoping I won't be around when changes start to become very noticeable. Not a very defensible position I know!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Are they not becoming noticeable now? Temp records being broken around the world, wildfires etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    Sorry, that's true. I was more thinking of the Irish climate and thinking about once in a century floods happening every five to ten years and the like. Basically I expect things to get worse :(



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,393 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Have the likes of yourself started reducing your standard of living to help the environment ?

    If you were a two car family did you get rid of one ?

    If you had multiple screens and devices in the house did you reduce it down to the bare minimum, e.g. one TV, one phone, one radio ?

    Did you stop buying out of season fruit ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    I was always of the opinion that the no matter what happened the human race would be able to do something about it even if we were a little late to the party. But corona has shown that won't happen. If anything serious ever happens we are fucked.

    Every company goes on about being carbon neutral or net zero - which is bs. Basically it is we are gonna keep doing what we are doing but we are gonna plant a load of trees. I believe BP alone would need to plant an area 4 times the size of England.

    Methane is an even bigger problem than CO2 - can you imagine the uproar if they were to massively cut cattle herds? People throwing tantrums because they couldn't have meat with every meal?

    Then you have the people who think we can't affect the climate? The human race destroys the world's carbon syncs and pumps millions of tons of co2 and methane into the atmosphere... but no we couldn't possibly have any affect on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    A recent study identified 5 countries that would cope best if there was a global economic, societal or climate breakdown.

    Ireland

    Britain

    Iceland

    New Zealand

    Australia

    Islands with relatively low populations, temperate climates and good agriculture. Islands that could block migration.

    I was a bit surprised by Australia, with its frequent bushfires and baking summer temperatures.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,595 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I don't think we have any chance of effectively combating climate change. Countries/people are too selfish.

    We would never react to it like we did Covid where companies and countries essentially went on a war footing.

    Essentially we need less economic activity and a smaller population to start tackling climate change. I don't see how that will happen.

    If I really want to get depressed about it, all I need to do is going into Smyths Toy Store at Christmas and see how much plastic garbage from China is being bought for the children to provide maybe 2/3 hours of enjoyment if that.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,498 ✭✭✭✭fullstop


    This nonsense of “sure we’re only little old ireland, no point in us changing our ways” is just absolute bollocks. We’re the 3rd highest polluters per capita in the EU. This quote from the Guardian article posted earlier in the thread tells you all you need to know about how we look after the environment;

    ”Ireland has a poor environmental record, despite its green image. In the 1980s it had more than 500 rivers and lakes with pristine water, now there are just 20, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. About 250,000 hectares of wetlands have been lost in the past two decades. Pollution from farming is widely blamed.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭TXPTGR1


    id say that list was pulled out of their arse- uks food security is poor


    we are fucked - no doubt- most people banking on some miracle tech innovation to get us out of this- not going to happen



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,796 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    And in turn the industry will collapse, thousand more unemployed.. the aviation industry here is responsible for indirectly and directly about 140,000 jobs. A seriously big earner for the government coffers... travel is necessary .. I’d rather government look at static polluters...



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭TXPTGR1


    I’ve always thought there was a good chance of me living to see a major famine/drought crisis in what is considered a developed first world country

    reckon we will see that in next 5-10 years now



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Ok so do nothing, imagine the carnage when all the major cities and huge areas of the country are under water... you want to talk about job loses.....



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭twinytwo




  • Registered Users Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Mr_Muffin


    Realistically, can anything be done at this stage? We've had our chance and we seem to be making a mess of things. I don't see anything changing in the future. The planet is probably better of without humans, to be honest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 470 ✭✭The Oort Cloud


    There is no possible way to fend off climate change, the only way you can fend off climate change is to completely destroy the planet into nothingness. Why would any-one want to fend off climate change in the first place? without it there would be no life on this planet. Climate change is the most natural thing to happen on any livable planet. The climate has been changing drastically even before human beings existed, let it do its natural thing, we will adapt as usual as we always have through the ages.

    Individual people have different thoughts and understanding in regard to others opinions, but the problem is this... there are some people out there that will do everything in their power to cut you off when they do not like your opinion even when it is truth.

    https://youtu.be/v8EseBe4eIU



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,664 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Humans adapting to climate change in history usually meant the ending of civilisations. For the first time in a long time we may be looking at a planet wide event.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,796 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    What ? I’m not saying do nothing. The aviation industry is doing much to pollute less, billions have been invested by the likes of Boeing and airbus to design more fuel efficient and greener aircraft, from an airline perspective routes flown are planned with fuel efficiency as a priority ok for cost but also the environment.... massive investments from airlines into airside vehicles for ground handling... electric or hybrid...

    if only as many other industries were of the same, attitude, mindset and determination... but always an easy target... the big bad airplanes, never mind taking a look at every industrial estate here, business who can much easily do more but do little.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,612 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    The Greens here are only clapping the rollout of a handful of charging points for cars only affordable or practical for elites just like themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Yet the infant Free State built a cutting edge for that time hydroelectric scheme that's still operating when they had barely two pennies to rub together.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,612 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Famines are a certainty. Their impact will be determined by how fast we modernise agriculture and encourage resilience. Fortunately crop yields have been increasing year after the year globally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Clontarf is not a good example,it would have impacted house values in a well heeled area with ties to government, most at risk areas aren't prime real estate so objections will be unlikely,

    think the biggest issue is that doing something solid like building a sea wall or creating proper drainage looks like mankind is adapting to an issue and that doesn't suit the Green agenda



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Not unless it's a war situation, the chances of famine in the Northern hemisphere is highly unlikely ,the same for drought , wealthy countries can grow everything under glass if they have to and desalination plants can supply water,



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    We have a smaller population than many Chinese cities, it's only concerned climate chastigators who want to peddle the nonsense that we matter. Its total impact that matters, not per head.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I don't see why my personal situation is relevant but I never owned a car to get rid of, never mind 2. My TV is something my brother gave me when he moved away 10 years ago.

    I don't see the point on trying to attack the messengers when these subjects come up. I didn't create this society of mega consumers, but I can see that everything is heading in the wrong direction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Do you know how spectacularly wrong people have been at making that sort of prediction? At least 50 years and counting.


    “Most of the people who are going to die in the greatest cataclysm in the history of man have already been born,” wrote Paul Ehrlich in a 1969 essay titled “Eco-Catastrophe! “By…[1975] some experts feel that food shortages will have escalated the present level of world hunger and starvation into famines of unbelievable proportions. Other experts, more optimistic, think the ultimate food-population collision will not occur until the decade of the 1980s.”6. Ehrlich sketched out his most alarmist scenario for the 1970 Earth Day issue of The Progressive, assuring readers that between 1980 and 1989, some 4 billion people, including 65 million Americans, would perish in the “Great Die-Off.”

    7. “It is already too late to avoid mass starvation,” declared Denis Hayes, the chief organizer for Earth Day, in the Spring 1970 issue of The Living Wilderness.

    8. Peter Gunter, a North Texas State University professor, wrote in 1970, “Demographers agree almost unanimously on the following grim timetable: by 1975 widespread famines will begin in India; these will spread by 1990 to include all of India, Pakistan, China and the Near East, Africa. By the year 2000, or conceivably sooner, South and Central America will exist under famine conditions….By the year 2000, thirty years from now, the entire world, with the exception of Western Europe, North America, and Australia, will be in famine.” https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/18-spectacularly-wrong-predictions-made-around-the-time-of-first-earth-day-in-1970-expect-more-this-year/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    Carbon has to be taken out of the air. Simple as that,if there is much chance of reversing the damage to our climate. Anyway its all well and good saying habitats need to be restored etc. I don't see many around the world rushing to do it.

    Population is a big problem. Difficult to know what to do about that. Unless no couple is allowed have more then 2 or 3 kids, after which they have to be sterilised. Perhaps a bit too draconian for many though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    We can't just keep saying things will cost jobs though, the airline industry doesn't need to be as big as it is, if we didn't fly as much and had less routes. Maybe everyone doesn't need to work, or should do work in their communities rather than for big companies. UBI is something that should be looked at. Food, accommodation, and some kind of purpose for citizens should come first, so how do we provide all that without relying on rampant consumerism?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Assuming you are employed, I vote to eliminate your source of employment, for the greater good, of course.



  • Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Das Reich


    Being Brazilian : no. To get to my town I have to cross hours of forests, something very rare in Europe, and totally absent in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    You're quoting words from years ago, surely climate science and tech has evolved to be a lot more accurate by now?

    We'll see what this report says on Monday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Unfortunately Brazil is heading in the way of Ireland day by day, clearing land for agriculture



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Are you saying all jobs should continue no matter what they are? Whalers? Coal miners? Poachers in Africa?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    You are kidding yourself. The SR71 was designed with slide rulers in the 1950's and first flew in 1964. The Concorde was designed with slide rulers and first flew in 1969. Back in the 70's, people actually landed and walked on the moon. Science and tech have not evolved as much as you think and were also far better than you seem to be giving credit for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,796 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    What is your ‘credible ‘ source or expertise on the airline industry not needing to be as big as it is ? Well ? :)

    id beg to differ..


    Approximate World Population :

    2010 : 6.956 billion

    2020 : 7.794 billion

    goods as well as people need to travel... therefore in a decade that has seen the planet gain and extra almost 800 million inhabitants, due to better healthcare and a plethora of other reasons, they and the services and goods that they need , that we need , needs a way to get around this planet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Average telly uses about 25watts an hour, be a long time doing any harm



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Do we really need to be taking multiple city breaks or flying for business meetings etc? I'm just saying, it's a big emitter of co2, so maybe we shouldn't be growing it indefinitely.

    It's just one of many things that need to be looked at, there is no easy way to change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Remembering something from about 15 years ago, there used to be around 6000 measuring stations around the world, think its something over 2000 now, at the time there were a few photos of some in questionable locations, in my opinion some of the data being used for comparison might not be as reliable as some think



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,355 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I'm more concerned about extinctions and bio diversity destruction than about climate change.

    I do realise the latter affects the former, but I'm more concerned about conspicuous consumption and environmental pollution.

    Do I think climate change is anthropogenic? Not entirely. I think we've exaggerated a cyclical phenomenon and I think its already past too late to change our contribution to it, which is to say, what will happen will happen. I do think we need to make our energy and agriculture far more sustainable to cope in the future though. And also to reduce global dependence on oil generally, which is a tool of mass inequality and ransom.

    As some coasts flood, some people will move. As some deserts expand, other areas will become wet and fertile.

    The human population will likely peak in 2100 or so anyway because of societal and technological advancements, but we'll all be dead. If humanity drops to 6 billion or 5 billion in another century after that, so be it, a better and more enlightened civilisation will live in better harmony with the rest of the natural world and the planet itself.

    Id be far more worried about the ongoing safety of nuclear armed countries, because only 2 or 3 of them seem to be entirely responsible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Mullaghteelin


    Relative to all the various problems we could potentially face, I genuinely believe most of the effects of climate change may actually be quite manageable.

    Even sea-level rise is something that will happen excruciatingly slowly, with affected areas flooding only briefly during the highest tides and most favourable weather conditions. It's not something that will just suddenly surprise us, but take decades to evolve.



  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    One reason I moved to Ireland 20 years ago was that there are no nuclear power plants.

    Even if we ignore the environmental impact of the Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima accidents - and the taxpayer's cost to try to fix it - nuclear power is nonsensical from a purely economical point of view.

    The part that nuclear power companies never really address is the long term cost of keeping the nuclear waste safe. If you have a half life of 50,000 years, waiting till the radiation of waste is reduced to a quarter takes 100,000 years. If you consider hiring even a small staff, to keep an eye on things, and make sure there are no leaks, 100,000 years is a long time. The expectation of nuclear power companies is that tax payers cover the long term cost, instead of doing a reasonable price calculation from the start.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,238 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The gradual change theory. Many say that change comes all of a sudden, like flipping a switch. Some ice cores are said to show prehistoric massive change in summer temperatures within a year!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,796 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    we probably need holidays... yes.

    business meetings ? Some yes, some no... lots of companies are cutting down on meetings I know my last job was zooming, but training still traveling.

    express and non express global freight and cargo is growing... there are more dedicated cargo flights across this planet now then ever before. Pre covid anyway.

    Ireland an island nation is reliant on goods that when require importing and exporting quickly or even just efficiently are all using air options..a lot is things that are essential like medical products and devices. at a guesstimate there is probably daily about average air ‘capacity’ of about 350-400 tonnes of cargo on both passenger and cargo airlines out of Dublin alone...



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