Are you concerned about the destruction of the natural world and climate change?

Thelonious Monk

It looks like we're in a spot of bother.

In a world where all that seems to matter is consumption and growth, we seem to be wearing blinkers when it comes to the shape our planet is in.

I think things are going to get increasingly worse in the coming years and it will start to properly hit home. It seems denying climate change and pollution has been replaced by doomism by many, as in we're Fd anyway so why bother.

People don't seem to want to entertain even minor inconveniences to make things better, so are we royally screwed? It seems to me we're fastly going towards inevitable resource shortages and wars, soon, not in 50 years.

It's a source of anxiety for me, have we any reason to be hopeful?

Oranage2

Is it a worry? Yes.

Can I do anything? No.

A large percentage of the pollution is down to a few corporations, they pay off governments and have their own private security.

Heraclius

I think the only hope is the combination of new technologies for carbon capture and a declining human population by the late part of the century. I just don't think people will accept sacrifices to living standard because of the risk of climate change based on how selfish so many people were in the face of the more imminent and tangible threat of a global pandemic.

Drumpot

I agree with you, Look at many peoples reaction to COVID, even when it was spreading around the world, entire countries were carrying on as normal, making no allowances . A lot of people take comfort in ignorance . I also think humans are really bad at measuring risk if it is not directly affecting them right now and they search out the information that confirms what they want to believe.

You are also right about comforts, once people have certain things they like , they are loath to lose them. I think many will presume science will save us, which it might, but it’s a terrible gamble to take.

Also, the future is kind of abstract to many, it doesn’t actually exist and thus it’s harder for them to prioritise it (Saving for retirement, losing weight, reducing stress now that will affect us when we are older).

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719110#Comment_117719110

Which corporations, what are they doing? It seems to me if we all lived simpler lives and countries became more self sufficient we would be in a lot better shape.

The amount of rubbish we don't really need imported from dirty Chinese factories is staggering.

I'm aware I'm using a phone and buying other pollutants but this is the world created for us and we were born into.

Thelonious Monk

I've no kids, how do people with young kids feel about their futures?

PokeHerKing

Worried? No. Most likely I and everyone I hold dear will be well dead before anything noticeable changes. If something drastic was to happen within my lifetime, well it would be an interesting experience I'm sure.

I also think humans need something to worry about, so I don't nessecarily believe every headline I read.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719150#Comment_117719150

I think things may happen sooner than you think. Even without headlines, look around you at the way we consume, it has gone crazy, any intelligent person should realise it's completely unsustainable.

Heraclius

It's an interesting question btw so thanks for posting it. It makes me anxious too. I used be more optimistic about the future before covid but the last year has made me very cynical I think. I despair whenever I see people posting the "we can wait until country X or Y does something" comments (on the journal or Twitter).

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719169#Comment_117719169

Well Ireland needs to become more secure in itself regardless of what other countries are doing.

I was disheartened that there isn't one discussion on these issues on boards, we are facing some stark existential issues and people just don't seem to care.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719164#Comment_117719164

I think putting a significant price on carbon will need to happen but people will be very unhappy about the increase in the price of flights and the changing price of particular foods, clothing and electronics. I know I still want to travel and that isn't a sustainable desire so I'm a hypocrite. At least I tend to use electronics and clothes until they fall apart and usually commute by bike.

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719164#Comment_117719164

What you and I think is irrelevant to what will actually happen though. We both have our own opinions and worrying about something you've zero control over is a waste of life.

As I said if something major did happen within my lifetime, such as the gulf stream collapsing etc it would be one hell of a wild ride I imagine and a much better way to kick the bucket than battling cancer or some other god awful disease.

Thelonious Monk

If you do these things the opposing parties will get voted in in the next election. I dont think democracy can fix things at this stage tbh.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719169#Comment_117719169

I’d be cautious using those online platforms or even the COVID threads in here (that are so toxic) to judge the majority of populations. These seem to represent more extremely misguided, self absorbed views of a certain cohort. I think generally people have more balanced leanings and can discuss topics rationally and even be influenced away from their beliefs. But some people double down on strongly held beliefs and their intensity/boisterous can convince us that more hold their views then actually do.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719195#Comment_117719195

Yeah fair enough, I guess I've just been having a hard time with it lately.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719178#Comment_117719178

Yes, I agree entirely that we need to act regardless of what other countries do.

Tell me how

Agree with the poster that referenced Covid. The way in which significant portions of the population both categorically ignore science, and display scant regard for the wellbeing of others has really demoralised me when it comes to meaningful climate action change.

It was always going to be hard, but when you see Republicans actions in the US such as the introduction of laws PREVENTING any mask mandates or further lockdown or other measures, I really despair.

People tried to shut Greta up over the last few years by telling her she was uneducated and inexperienced, we're now watching many of the same people dismissing the views of medical experts on Covid.

And while Covid restrictions merely, for the most part, impact comfort and travel etc for short terms, the adjustment needed to rework society from its present adulation if rampant capitalism will be less appealing to even more people.

I expect we will start to see the population of the planet start to drop within the next 100 years as the impact of climate action really bites, but what will be left will be a wasteland when compared to what we even have now.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719178#Comment_117719178

Isn’t England and possibly Ireland’s farming land under threat in the next 90 years? It’s remarkable how utterly irresponsible we are as a species. We love to praise ourselves for how clever we are but we really are a mess.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719201#Comment_117719201

I haven't entirely despaired of democracy yet! I suspect any other system would be even more reluctant to change.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719189#Comment_117719189

Focusing on carbon is a massive distraction and will do nothing to improve things. If you hear any politician talking about carbon taxes or carbon credits you can be sure they are a fraud who doesn’t care about the planet.

To improve things we need to protect and restore habitats, reduce pollution (focus on the real toxic pollution rather than carbon) and do something about the unsustainable population (by far the hardest thing to resolve).

Thelonious Monk

I hope this thread doesn't dissolve to the usual squabbling, even if climate change isn't real the destruction if the natural world is, and that means game over at some stage.

The IPCC publish a report on Monday, it is going to be some seriously grim reading.

Heraclius

I think the population need to be presented with much clearer information about the amount of carbon dioxide or methane associated with each product they buy. I understand that this would be quite difficult and also would put the onus of change onto the end consumer instead of producers but it might still help if consumers started seeking out the lowest impact version of a product.

Thelonious Monk

How do we convince the world to buy and produce less stuff? GDP should not be something to be proud of, it doesn't measure happiness.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719224#Comment_117719224

I don't see how the carbon dioxide issue can be dismissed so casually. We've literally changed the concentration of a gas in our atmosphere by nearly 50% in two centuries. And we are putting another 30 gigatonnes into it each year as far as I know.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719216#Comment_117719216

Democracy is not ideal during a crisis. The ideal scenario is a philanthropic leader that genuinely tries to run a country in a fair manner.

I also think what we think of democracy is kind of a myth. If I’m a billionaire or even a millionaire and do crimes, I can possibly buy my way out of trouble. Also major corporations and financial institutions get preferential treatments and are exempt from rules/laws the Rest of us have to follow, in the interest of the greater good of course.

When people profess that democracy is the best, I refer back to the problem with every system and thing you can think of. People will corrupt everything, there is nothing sacred. People who want power and want to abuse will do that to everything.

Theres this conflicting feeling I have on society’s indulgence of corruption and serious crimes. For example Why should people who cause great pain (serial rapists, killers, drug dealers) with zero regard for their victims be allowed to live? I don’t get it. Is locking people up for life (in USA at least) of a few years really better? I feel we often let perception (it’s more humane) over ride common sense (serial offenders who will have more victims).

Spanish Eyes

Climate change might be happening as we speak, but in general most of us cannot see it tangibly affecting our day to day lives much. The future impact of climate change is not something many embrace enthusiastically, because it is sometime in the future, and people live for now mostly.

The money making out of this is something I am wary of. Who benefits from the levies, the restrictions and so on. Far as I can see we are paying for green bins, recycling, carbon levies and so on and many don't have a clue what it is achieving or where the money goes that impacts today on people's outgoings.

In the US for example, practically everyone over the age of sixteen drives a car, they have to in many cases. That is a massive emissions burden for a start and won't end anytime soon, and pollution in places like China are problematic also. People are generally cynical about nebulous concepts that cost money. Most cannot see the effects of climate change yet apart from a few conniptions when we get a week of blistering heat and heavy snow in Winter really.

Most just muddle through and take things day by day. As my granny used to say, "what the eye can't see, the heart won't grieve over"

Anyway..... interesting topic, but while I try to do my bit with recycling, electric car, efficient heating and insulation etc. it is not a subject that keeps me awake at night either.

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719238#Comment_117719238

You won't really. We either adapt to creating non polluting forms of consumption or we run our course as a species.

Population controls would be the biggest winner but you won't get that in democracies. I mean in 100 years earth's population increased 4 fold. If that rate of increase continues nothings going to stop our destruction.

SEPT 23 1989

the big problems will come from inside the earth or from the sun not the money making racket

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719259#Comment_117719259

Even if we halved the population and continued living as we do, the earth would be stripped bare eventually.

Our way of life needs to change, I'm aware it wont and people would rather go to war than change their lifestyles, but it's just bloody depressing.

Thelonious Monk

I don't get why people making money from greenwashing matters

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719262#Comment_117719262

Good to know that you regard our dependence on coal, oil and gas from inside the earth combined with solar radiation trapped by an increasing blanket of greenhouse gases as a threat! You're also right that the well funded fossil fuel companies are a money making racket.

Fr Tod Umptious

Why do we, the current inhabitants of this planet, think that we are the smartest ?

Why do we think that future generations will not be able to handle the world they live in.

Climate change is inevitable, and has been happening for billions of years, and it will continue to happen.

It has had a destructive effect on species for billions of years.

So why don't we stop thinking we are the smartest and can control the planet, and get on with living our lives and those that come after us will get on with living theirs also.

Chris_5339762

People care about climate change etc until they are asked to do something themselves, or if there will be a cost to their time, or their family, or their job, or their money. Then the wall of "someone else can do it" goes up. It's all human nature.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719304#Comment_117719304

So you don't believe in man made climate change, fine.

What about the fact we are poisoning our water supplies, our oceans, wiping out infects and sea life? It doesn't concern you? Not really fair on future generations is it.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719304#Comment_117719304

Slow changes usually not sudden ones. If we are capable of leaving future generations a better world than we probably will leave them then surely we should.

I think you are the only one claiming the current generation believes it is the smartest.

Strumms

It brings home just how much ‘democracy’ is an illusion.

we might have a say in ‘who’ is in power to an extent but we have increasingly less and less say and influence as regards what happens when they are IN power.

the corporations and business leaders are now trying to call the shots. Seen it coming.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719319#Comment_117719319

I totally believe in man made climate change.

And I also believe that if the north Atlantic drift disappeared and we in Ireland ended up with a climate more similar to other places at our latitude that the people living on this island would be smart enough to know how to adapt to it

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719252#Comment_117719252

Carbon is a symptom not the root cause of the problem. That is why focusing on carbon is counterproductive. If the real issues are dealt with then the carbon content of the atmosphere will reduce.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719391#Comment_117719391

Ok that's pretty ridiculous. If that did happen we'd end up with a similar climate to Newfoundland which has a bigger area than Ireland but only 500,000 people. I'm sure those that would remain in Ireland in the long run if our climate became more a continental boreal climate would adapt but that doesn't mean we should want that as an outcome

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719406#Comment_117719406

Sorry, I thought you were dismissing it. I partially agree with you in that case. It is an outcome of over consumption. Tbh it has been so useful to us. It's hard to imagine our growth over the past two centuries without fossil fuels. I agree that we need to also focus on preserving habitats etc. but I think we carbon dioxide (and methane and nitrous oxides) are key pollutants we are producing.

Thelonious Monk

The thing is, the over consumption has been forced on us. My parents had nothing when kids but had happy childhoods in the 50s and 60s.

Now it's one click deliveries from Ali Baba and Amazon. Pollutant rubbish we don't need.

I try to be conscious of everything i buy, i sometimes wish I wasn't though.

How do we push back against this tide?

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719447#Comment_117719447

Palm oil is one of the things that annoys me. As far as I know it has a dreadful impact in equatorial countries environments but it is so hard to avoid it in everyday products.

Thelonious Monk

I buy bars of soap made entirely from olive oil. If you keep your food simple it can be avoided. But yes it's so sad how those plantations are replacing rain forest.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719463#Comment_117719463

Thanks for your input!

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719410#Comment_117719410

They've pretty similar summer's and better winters. I think you're overestimating a population exodus based on that.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719470#Comment_117719470

I think that has really reassured us all!

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719476#Comment_117719476

I have been there, it's pretty barren, Ireland's beef and dairy farming would be kaput for starters.

Billcarson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719118#Comment_117719118

100% agree. We need new technologies to really tackle the issue. The size of the ever increasing human population which is effectively out of control is a big elephant in the room.

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719483#Comment_117719483

Yes not a huge amount of agriculture there bit if you're against pollution that's no bad thing. Population has way more factors then just the weather. We've a huge service industry here that wouldn't cease to exist because of proper winters.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719476#Comment_117719476

Perhaps but it depends where in the province you are I think. The island part is more agreeable but with colder winters but I think Labrador gets pretty awful. I still don't see why you would want it as a climate when we have a more agreeable climate now (I wouldn't mind a few more dry days but it'll do).

joe40

I share concerns about habitat destruction and climate change.

It seems to me that we as a species are not good at long term planning. Even scientific progress needs an immediate benefit and use. Science and technology progress in relation to immediate need. The rate of covid vaccine development is case in point.

This actually gives me hope. When we are eventually faced with the end of fossil fuels alternative technology will progress at a faster rate.

Look at how wars accelerate technology. Would the advances in nuclear energy development have occurred as quickly if there wasn't an immediate need for an atomic bomb.

Basically I think our ingenuity, will mitigate future hardships but it is an indictment of the human condition that we wait until damage is done.

the same mindset as I'll stop smoking if a tumour develops.