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Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

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Comments

  • #3152
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,477 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Snake Plisken wrote: »
    Yes 3rd degree murder and manslaughter and for shooting a woman dead for no reason it was a very light sentance! I still think Chauvin was given such a disprortionate sentance to stop further riots.

    The difference, as you well know, is the charge of second degree murder in the case of Chauvin. That carries a higher sentence than third degree murder.

    You may feel that Noor and Chauvin should have gotten the same sentence, but the evidence, court case and jury proved different.

    Chauvin's actions in keeping his knee on Floyd's neck for a prolonged period of time, after Floyd said he'd comply, passed out and died, and with Chauvin not having any regard for Floyd's health and safety, all gave weight to the charge of second degree murder. That's what makes it different to the Noor case.

    Noor was charged, tried and sentenced based on his actions. So was Chauvin. Their actions were different. Their charges were different. Their sentences were different.


  • #3153
    Snake Plisken
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,316 ✭✭✭✭Snake Plisken


    Penn wrote: »
    The difference, as you well know, is the charge of second degree murder in the case of Chauvin. That carries a higher sentence than third degree murder.

    You may feel that Noor and Chauvin should have gotten the same sentence, but the evidence, court case and jury proved different.

    Chauvin's actions in keeping his knee on Floyd's neck for a prolonged period of time, after Floyd said he'd comply, passed out and died, and with Chauvin not having any regard for Floyd's health and safety, all gave weight to the charge of second degree murder. That's what makes it different to the Noor case.

    Noor was charged, tried and sentenced based on his actions. So was Chauvin. Their actions were different. Their charges were different. Their sentences were different.

    And I suppose the amount of drugs in Floyd's system didn t play a part in his death ! seems to me if Chauvin had shot Floyd dead rather then do what the state trained him to do in restraining Floyd he would have got a lighter sentance ! Imo Chauvin is guilty of not paying attention to Floyd's condition and he should do jail time for that but not what he got. Seems to be the Somalian got off very lightly for cold blooded murder!


  • #3154
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's what a large portion of modern rightwing thought and conservatism is though. Defend any sort of bigot no matter the cost and humiliation incurred in the process.

    Lol.

    Like a large portion of leftwing thought:

    Defend any criminal and their actions once they aren't white regardless of how abhorrent their character or beliefs are. Just once you can invoke some sort of racism and bolster your own white saviour complex.


  • #3155
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Snake Plisken wrote: »
    And I suppose the amount of drugs in Floyd's system didn t play a part in his death ! seems to me if Chauvin had shot Floyd dead rather then do what the state trained him to do in restraining Floyd he would have got a lighter sentance ! Imo Chauvin is guilty of not paying attention to Floyd's condition and he should do jail time for that but not what he got. Seems to be the Somalian got off very lightly for cold blooded murder!

    Chauvin is guilty of kneeling on a mans neck until that man died. It wasn't a case of not paying attention. It was a case of not caring if he died. The sentence was too light if anything.


  • #3156
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,428 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Im no fan of the online left but look lads, kneeling on a fellas neck for nine minutes on camera as he tells you he cannot breathe is not the hill i would choose to die on


    That's why the tactic is to argue around it. Criticise BLM. Criticise the media response. Criticise George Floyd's past. The police sure have a hard job. Pull the argument away from the inarguable, and diminish the central incident to a background thing. Imagine a field with no crops and just banks of useless straw men, and you've got a got an apt metaphor for the arguments around the killing of George Floyd.


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  • #3157
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Snake Plisken wrote: »
    And I suppose the amount of drugs in Floyd's system didn t play a part in his death ! seems to me if Chauvin had shot Floyd dead rather then do what the state trained him to do in restraining Floyd he would have got a lighter sentance ! Imo Chauvin is guilty of not paying attention to Floyd's condition and he should do jail time for that but not what he got. Seems to be the Somalian got off very lightly for cold blooded murder!

    No he did not do what he was trained to do as if he did he be off him once he passed out. Also it is irrelevant what drugs he had as Chauvins action caused his death.

    Here is an example it's called the egg shell principal I think. You and another person are in a fight. You hit them once and they go down. Now unknown to you is the person had a disease that made there skull brittle. So the person dies. You still get charged with murder as your actions made it happen


  • #3158
    Biker79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Biker79


    martingriff wrote: »
    No he did not do what he was trained to do as if he did he be off him once he passed out. Also it is irrelevant what drugs he had as Chauvins action caused his death.

    Here is an example it's called the egg shell principal I think. You and another person are in a fight. You hit them once and they go down. Now unknown to you is the person had a disease that made there skull brittle. So the person dies. You still get charged with murder as your actions made it happen

    A completely false analogy.

    It would work if one fighter secretly sabotaged himself with brittle bone disease, so that the other fighter would leave him alone and thus facilitate his exclusion from the fight...

    Which is exactly what Floyd had done, with success, in 2019.

    It's the oldest trick in the junkie toolbox.


  • #3159
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,477 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Snake Plisken wrote: »
    And I suppose the amount of drugs in Floyd's system didn t play a part in his death ! seems to me if Chauvin had shot Floyd dead rather then do what the state trained him to do in restraining Floyd he would have got a lighter sentance ! Imo Chauvin is guilty of not paying attention to Floyd's condition and he should do jail time for that but not what he got. Seems to be the Somalian got off very lightly for cold blooded murder!

    See now you're just purposefully conflating two different scenarios, plus adding hypotheticals, all to make a point which still isn't borne out of any facts.

    You initially brought up the Noor case to say Chauvin should have gotten a lighter sentence similar to what Noor got. Now you're saying "the Somalian" should have gotten a harsher sentence.

    There wasn't the same level of intent in Noor's actions compared to Chauvin. He and his partner were taken by surprise by the appearance of Justine Diamond, and Noor acted completely irresponsibly (whether out of panic or just incompetence) and fired a shot at her (not knowing who she was or what her intentions were). They both tried to adminster first aid to keep her alive until paramedics came.

    Chauvin knelt on Floyd's neck to restrain him, then intentionally stayed there after Floyd promised to comply, after he stopped resisting, after he stopped moving, after he stopped breathing, and for about 4 minutes after that. Chauvin did not intend to kill Floyd, no-one generally claims otherwise. But Chauvin's actions were intentional, and he was not acting out of fear or self-defence. He intentionally chose to kneel on Floyd's neck. He intentionally stayed kneeling on his neck instead of checking on Floyd after he passed out & died. He intentionally stayed kneeling on Floyd's neck rather than checking on his condition.

    There was an intent in Chauvin's actions that simply do not warrant comparison to the Noor case. That intent was proven beyond a reasonable doubt to the jury in a court of law. That intent led to a jury finding him guilty of second degree murder, which carries higher sentencing than what Noor was found guilty of.


  • #3160
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Biker79 wrote: »
    A completely false analogy.

    It would work if one fighter secretly sabotaged himself with brittle bone disease, so that the other fighter would leave him alone and thus facilitate his exclusion from the flight...

    Which is exactly what Floyd had done, with success, in 2019.

    It's the oldest trick in the junkie toolbox.

    He was handcuffed and Chauvin entirely had upper hand... So ya, stop trying to retrial it cause the result is pretty clear.


  • #3161
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Biker79 wrote: »
    A completely false analogy.

    It would work if one fighter secretly sabotaged himself with brittle bone disease, so that the other fighter would leave him alone and thus facilitate his exclusion from the flight...

    Which is exactly what Floyd had done, with success, in 2019.

    It's the oldest trick in the junkie toolbox.

    The point of the apology is the person is responsible for there actions and you do nothing that will harm a person


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  • #3162
    Biker79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Biker79


    Deleted User wrote: »
    He was handcuffed and Chauvin entirely had upper hand... So ya, stop trying to retrial it cause the result is pretty clear.

    He had already attempted to sabotage his arrest, with a strategic overdose, during the 40 mins leading up to Chauvin arriving.

    He had successfully done exactly this in 2019.

    What's clear to me now is that Chauvin should not have been charged in the first place. Reprimanded yes... his behavior was excessive.

    But Floyd wasn't strolling down the shops, minding his own business, when suddenly jumped by police during which he lost his life - which is the narrative attempted by some.

    He was a convicted violent offender, in the process of committing a felony and subsequently attempting to avoid/ sabotage his arrest with a drug overdose.

    The outcome of the trial doesn't change those facts.


  • #3163
    Biker79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Biker79


    martingriff wrote: »
    The point of the apology is the person is responsible for there actions and you do nothing that will harm a person

    Which is exactly why junkies use this technique to avoid being arrested.

    Its why Dublin city center/ San Fran/ LA are in a complete mess. Its due to proliferation of junkies/ anti-social types and police reluctance to engage with them.


  • #3164
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,477 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Biker79 wrote: »
    He had already attempted to sabotage his arrest, with a strategic overdose, during the 40 mins leading up to Chauvin arriving.

    He had successfully done exactly this in 2019.

    What's clear to me now is that Chauvin should not have been charged in the first place. Reprimanded yes... his behavior was excessive.

    But Floyd wasn't strolling down the shops, minding his own business, when suddenly jumped by police during which he lost his life - which is the narrative attempted by some.

    He was a convicted violent offender, in the process of committing a felony and subsequently attempting to avoid/ sabotage his arrest with a drug overdose.

    The outcome of the trial doesn't change those facts.

    Correct. The outcome of the trial doesn't change those facts. Important to note however, those facts relate to Floyd, not Chauvin. George Floyd wasn't the one on trial. He didn't make it to trial. Chauvin killed him.

    Chauvin was convicted based on his actions. No-one is saying Floyd shouldn't have been arrested, or restrained. Chauvin's conviction was based on his actions in the course of his duty. His actions made him culpable in Floyd's death, and the evidence pointed to Chauvin being intentionally negligent in his actions and acting with intent in those actions which resulted in Floyd's death (even if Floyd's death wasn't intentional).

    The outcome of the trial was based on those facts.


  • #3165
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Biker79 wrote: »
    Which is exactly why junkies use this technique to avoid being arrested.

    Its why Dublin city center/ San Fran/ LA are in a complete mess. Its due to proliferation of junkies/ anti-social types and police reluctance to engage with them.

    Overdose on purpose give me a break. You can treat and then arrest. Does not change the fact what Chauvin did anyway.


  • #3166
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Biker79 wrote: »
    He had already attempted to sabotage his arrest, with a strategic overdose, during the 40 mins leading up to Chauvin arriving.

    He had successfully done exactly this in 2019.

    What's clear to me now is that Chauvin should not have been charged in the first place. Reprimanded yes... his behavior was excessive.

    But Floyd wasn't strolling down the shops, minding his own business, when suddenly jumped by police during which he lost his life - which is the narrative attempted by some.

    He was a convicted violent offender, in the process of committing a felony and subsequently attempting to avoid/ sabotage his arrest with a drug overdose.

    The outcome of the trial doesn't change those facts.

    And nothing you said changes the fact that chauvin is a convicted murderer.


  • #3167
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    cdeb wrote: »
    What has that to do with anything?

    It shows the utter hypocrisy of posters, potentially including you, who do not question that there was systematic issues in policing and other aspects of life in the north against the catholic community during the troubles while at the same time twist themselves in knots ignoring similar systematic issues against non-white communities, especially in the US.

    The same people thought the RUC were wrong for attacking peaceful protesters in the north here laughing at videos of police in the US attacking peaceful anti-racism protesters.

    The same people who supported the abolition of the RUC, outraged at calls to change the way policing is funded and performed in the US.

    The same people who demand black people 'get on with it' and 'stop being victims' support all the changes made to in the north to reduce systematic disparities that had a greater impact on the Catholic communities.

    I could go on and on. I understand it is easier to feel sympathy for people we have closer ties to but the hypocrisy is so obvious.


  • #3168
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    It shows the utter hypocrisy of posters, potentially including you, who do not question that there was systematic issues in policing and other aspects of life in the north against the catholic community during the troubles while at the same time twist themselves in knots ignoring similar systematic issues against non-white communities, especially in the US.

    The same people thought the RUC were wrong for attacking peaceful protesters in the north here laughing at videos of police in the US attacking peaceful anti-racism protesters.

    The same people who supported the abolition of the RUC, outraged at calls to change the way policing is funded and performed in the US.

    The same people who demand black people 'get on with it' and 'stop being victims' support all the changes made to in the north to reduce systematic disparities that had a greater impact on the Catholic communities.

    I could go on and on. I understand it is easier to feel sympathy for people we have closer ties to but the hypocrisy is so obvious.

    A policeman acted incredibly recklessly and has been convicted for over two decades.

    Is that justice?

    Should the race of either people concerned be a factor?

    Should there be a higher punishment because of your perceived inequality (which is racim btw)?


  • #3169
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    I could go on and on. I understand it is easier to feel sympathy for people we have closer ties to but the hypocrisy is so obvious.

    Expand on that if you will.


  • #3170
    take everything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,808 ✭✭✭take everything


    Do people here think that the conviction and sentence Chauvin received was in any way influenced by the threat of riots/violence. If so, it goes without saying that that's a huge issue in this trial.

    Does anyone acknowledge that there may have existed such an influence.


  • #3171
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,301 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    take everything wrote: »
    Do people here think that the conviction and sentence Chauvin received was in any way influenced by the threat of riots/violence. If so, it goes without saying that that's a huge issue in this trial.

    Does anyone acknowledge that there may have existed such an influence.

    No. Many, including Floyd's family have expressed the sentiment that the verdict was not enough and yet there is no hint of protest or riots.

    The judge himself said that he was determining sentencing with no consideration towards outside influences.

    The permissible sentencing for one of the things he was convicted of is 40 years, he got just over half that. If the sentence had been designed to quell unrest, surely the judge would have gone closer to using the sentencing bandwidth available to him.


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  • #3172
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    take everything wrote: »
    Do people here think that the conviction and sentence Chauvin received was in any way influenced by the threat of riots/violence. If so, it goes without saying that that's a huge issue in this trial.

    Does anyone acknowledge that there may have existed such an influence.

    I've no doubt that the jury in the trial were not compromised.

    I also don't believe that chauvin's actions were lawful.

    It's horrible.


  • #3173
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,477 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    take everything wrote: »
    Do people here think that the conviction and sentence Chauvin received was in any way influenced by the threat of riots/violence. If so, it goes without saying that that's a huge issue in this trial.

    Does anyone acknowledge that there may have existed such an influence.

    I don't. Even if you just narrow it down to the jury, the idea that 12 seperate people would conspire to find a man guilty of a crime just because of the potential risk of riots, and not one of them would stand against that, is ridiculous. Even if people rioted following the decision, that's on the rioters, not the jury, and I think given the riots of the previous year after Floyd's death, the police, guards, general security throughout the city would have been somewhat more prepared than then.

    If I imagine myself on the jury, if I legitimately felt that Chauvin was innocent of one or more of the charges, the risk of riots wouldn't influence my decision. I'd stand by my decision, hung jury and riots or not. You cannot send an innocent man to jail for a crime he didn't commit due to a perceived potential event.

    All 12 members of the jury found him guilty of all charges. Even if Chauvin was only found guilty of one or two of the lesser charges, he'd still be jailed, which might have reduced the chances of a riot happening (even if people weren't happy with him not being found guilty of all charges). But all 12 members found him guilty of all charges. To me, that signifies that all 12 felt he was guilty of all charges, unless some evidence to the contrary presents itself.


  • #3174
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    take everything wrote: »
    Do people here think that the conviction and sentence Chauvin received was in any way influenced by the threat of riots/violence. If so, it goes without saying that that's a huge issue in this trial.

    Does anyone acknowledge that there may have existed such an influence.

    the conviction and sentence was influenced by the evidence presented. stop trying to portray Chauvin as the victim here. there was only one victim in this case and he died with Chauvin's knee on his neck.


  • #3175
    Biker79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Biker79


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    the conviction and sentence was influenced by the evidence presented. stop trying to portray Chauvin as the victim here. there was only one victim in this case and he died with Chauvin's knee on his neck.

    Really? Then why persist with the ' wont someone please think of the children ' emotional incontinence?

    Because thats the only way you can get your point of view over the line. By drowning everyone in hyperbole. Typical of Woke leftism.

    The decision to charge Chauvin and the outcome of this Trial will only weaken law and order. Police will hesitate to engage with difficult situations as a result, in case the prevailing political winds mean they will end up in jail for trying to do their job.

    Criminals will become more daring, because they now know of another weakness in arrest protocols.

    The net effect of the incident will be greater criminality and a law abiding public exposed to more crime.

    The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions.


  • #3176
    take everything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,808 ✭✭✭take everything


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    the conviction and sentence was influenced by the evidence presented. stop trying to portray Chauvin as the victim here. there was only one victim in this case and he died with Chauvin's knee on his neck.

    I just asked a fair (imho) question.
    Nowhere did i try to portray Chauvin as a victim.


  • #3177
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,477 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Biker79 wrote: »
    Really? Then why persist with the ' wont someone please think of the children ' emotional incontinence?

    Because thats the only way you can get your point of view over the line. By drowning everyone in hyperbole. Typical of Woke leftism.

    The decision to charge Chauvin and the outcome of this Trial will only weaken law and order. Police will hesitate to engage with difficult situations as a result, in case the prevailing political winds mean they will end up in jail for trying to do their job.

    Criminals will become more daring, because they now know of another weakness in arrest protocols.

    The net effect of the incident will be greater criminality and a law abiding public exposed to more crime.

    The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions.

    So that's what your argument is reduced to? Now that Chauvin has been found guilty and sentenced accordingly, we have a slippery slope argument that criminals will be emboldened and police running scared. All because one cop who was demonstrably proven to have not done his job properly and to have been unnecessarily cruel in doing his job, resulting in a man's death.

    There's no middle ground? Cops can't just, I don't know, not kneel on a suspects neck, but on their shoulder instead? They can't put the suspect in another position after they've been restrained? They can't check on a suspects condition?

    You can't accuse people of being hyperbolic, and then be hyperbolic. That's too much bolic's.


  • #3178
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,257 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Biker79 wrote: »
    Really? Then why persist with the ' wont someone please think of the children ' emotional incontinence?

    Because thats the only way you can get your point of view over the line. By drowning everyone in hyperbole. Typical of Woke leftism.

    The decision to charge Chauvin and the outcome of this Trial will only weaken law and order. Police will hesitate to engage with difficult situations as a result, in case the prevailing political winds mean they will end up in jail for trying to do their job.

    Criminals will become more daring, because they now know of another weakness in arrest protocols.

    The net effect of the incident will be greater criminality and a law abiding public exposed to more crime.

    The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions.

    He knelt on a man's neck for 9 minutes. Nine whole minutes.

    If this case stops cops from recklessly endangering people for the simple reason that they're cops, then good.

    Floyds history and past mean nothing. Chauvin kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes and killed him. There is no debate on this.


  • #3179
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    He knelt on a man's neck for 9 minutes. Nine whole minutes.

    If this case stops cops from recklessly endangering people for the simple reason that they're cops, then good.

    Floyds history and past mean nothing. Chauvin kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes and killed him. There is no debate on this.

    And he was sentenced to over two decades in prison.

    Good.

    A policeman shouldn't be reckless with his authority and end up killing someone.

    Still though, why is this a race issue?


  • #3180
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    take everything wrote: »
    I just asked a fair (imho) question.
    Nowhere did i try to portray Chauvin as a victim.

    you think he only was only convicted and received the sentence he did because of the fear of riots. that is portraying him as a victim.


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  • #3181
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Biker79 wrote: »
    Really? Then why persist with the ' wont someone please think of the children ' emotional incontinence?

    Because thats the only way you can get your point of view over the line. By drowning everyone in hyperbole. Typical of Woke leftism.

    The decision to charge Chauvin and the outcome of this Trial will only weaken law and order. Police will hesitate to engage with difficult situations as a result, in case the prevailing political winds mean they will end up in jail for trying to do their job.

    Criminals will become more daring, because they now know of another weakness in arrest protocols.

    The net effect of the incident will be greater criminality and a law abiding public exposed to more crime.

    The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions.

    the net effect will be that maybe police officers will think twice before endangering the lives of those they are trying to arrest. Maybe.


  • #3182
    take everything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,808 ✭✭✭take everything


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you think he only was only convicted and received the sentence he did because of the fear of riots. that is portraying him as a victim.

    I asked a question.
    Yet you seem to know what I think.


  • #3183
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    take everything wrote: »
    I asked a question.
    Yet you seem to know what I think.

    what do you think? do you think he was only convicted and received the sentence he did because of a fear of riots?


  • #3184
    take everything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,808 ✭✭✭take everything


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    what do you think? do you think he was only convicted and received the sentence he did because of a fear of riots?

    I don't know.
    That's why I asked the question.


  • #3185
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    take everything wrote: »
    I don't know.
    That's why I asked the question.

    Yeah right. You just happened to ask a leading question. Entirely innocent like.


  • #3186
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,301 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Deleted User wrote: »
    And he was sentenced to over two decades in prison.

    Good.

    A policeman shouldn't be reckless with his authority and end up killing someone.

    Still though, why is this a race issue?

    Because it is in another in a long line of incidents where black people watch police use excessive force against members of their community resulting in them being killed.

    You might disagree with this, but you're around these discussions long enough to know the premise behind this viewpoint and that this is the foundation of the BLM protests which you've said you abhor.


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  • #3187
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Because it is in another in a long line of incidents where black people watch police use excessive force against members of their community resulting in them being killed.

    You might disagree with this, but you're around these discussions long enough to know the premise behind this viewpoint and that this is the foundation of the BLM protests which you've said you abhor.

    Race wasn't brought up in the trial. I wonder why? Maybe because there is zero evidence that there was a racial aspect to this incident?


  • #3188
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Race wasn't brought up in the trial. I wonder why? Maybe because there is zero evidence that there was a racial aspect to this incident?

    or perhaps because they couldn't prove it beyond a reasonable so relied on the considerable amount of evidence they had for murder?


  • #3189
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    or perhaps because they couldn't prove it beyond a reasonable so relied on the considerable amount of evidence they had for murder?

    Or perhaps there wasn't a shred of evidence.

    By the way, they wouldn't have to prove a racial element beyond a reasonable doubt, they only had to do that with the murder charge.


  • #3190
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Or perhaps there wasn't a shred of evidence.

    By the way, they wouldn't have to prove a racial element beyond a reasonable doubt, they only had to do that with the murder charge.

    who knows which of us is right. it made no difference to the outcome. the murdering scumbag is locked up and may never see a blue sky again.


  • #3191
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    The old argument of blacks being killed by the cops more frequently than whites has been debunked countless times

    here is another stats

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/


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  • #3192
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    The old argument of blacks being killed by the cops more frequently than whites has been debunked countless times

    here is another stats

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

    you posted absolute numbers that are totally meaningless. that is a really poor effort on your part. Find the per 1000 population numbers and let us know what they say.


  • #3193
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,477 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    The old argument of blacks being killed by the cops more frequently than whites has been debunked countless times

    here is another stats

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117518813&postcount=3080

    Again, numerically, but not proportionally. Black men are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men.


  • #3194
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Penn wrote: »
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117518813&postcount=3080

    Again, numerically, but not proportionally. Black men are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men.

    According to the FBI, in 2019, 55.9% of homicide offenders were black. Black people represent way less than 55.9% of the population. They represent about 13.4% of the population. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls

    So, are black people more violent or more likely to commit homicide than other races? It's a legitimate question given those statistics.

    And if that's the case, logic dictates that they would be more violent towards the police and that might explain why they are killed at a greater rate that white people.


  • #3195
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,477 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    According to the FBI, in 2019, 55.9% of homicide offenders were black. Black people represent way less than 55.9% of the population. They represent about 13.4% of the population. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls

    So, are black people more violent or more likely to commit homicide than other races? It's a legitimate question given those statistics.

    And if that's the case, logic dictates that they would be more violent towards the police and that might explain why they are killed at a greater rate that white people.

    I don't dispute that. It might also explain why police are more violent to and treat black people worse to begin with even when not under threat, which would indicate potential racial bias in their dealings with black people. Why they're quicker to draw or fire their guns at black people, why they're quicker to try and take down a black suspect than try to de-escalate situations. It might also indicate potential racial bias by Chauvin when dealing with Floyd, even though there was no obvious evidence which could be presented to support such in court.

    Nonetheless, black people are more likely to be killed by police than white people.


  • #3196
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Penn wrote: »
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117518813&postcount=3080

    Again, numerically, but not proportionally. Black men are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men.


    what's the ratio of blacks being involved with crime compared to whites
    I'm sure there is a correlation with the deaths


  • #3197
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,477 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    what's the ratio of blacks being involved with crime compared to whites
    I'm sure there is a correlation with the deaths

    You said;
    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    The old argument of blacks being killed by the cops more frequently than whites has been debunked countless times

    Do you now agree based on the statistics that black people are more likely to be killed than white people?


  • #3198
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Penn wrote: »
    You said;



    Do you now agree based on the statistics that black people are more likely to be killed than white people?


    No, as many said before

    you need to look at the ratio of black v whites population, black v whites ratio of involvement with crime, brack v white ratio of killings by the cops


  • #3199
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    No, as many said before

    you need to look at the ratio of black v whites population, black v whites ratio of involvement with crime, brack v white ratio of killings by the cops

    and you need to understand the difference between absolute numbers and per capita numbers. let us know when you figure that out.


  • #3200
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,428 ✭✭✭✭briany


    I can understand from just a human standpoint how a police officer might become jaded towards black people if all they do day in day out is run up on predominantly black gang bangers in some inner city area. It's still not any kind of excuse, though, if that officer uses excessive force against someone due to an acquired prejudice.


  • #3201
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    and you need to understand the difference between absolute numbers and per capita numbers. let us know when you figure that out.


    since logic isnt your strongest skill, see below for more details

    BattleCorp wrote: »
    According to the FBI, in 2019, 55.9% of homicide offenders were black. Black people represent way less than 55.9% of the population. They represent about 13.4% of the population. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls

    So, are black people more violent or more likely to commit homicide than other races? It's a legitimate question given those statistics.

    And if that's the case, logic dictates that they would be more violent towards the police and that might explain why they are killed at a greater rate that white people.


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