Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

Penn

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Yes 3rd degree murder and manslaughter and for shooting a woman dead for no reason it was a very light sentance! I still think Chauvin was given such a disprortionate sentance to stop further riots.

The difference, as you well know, is the charge of second degree murder in the case of Chauvin. That carries a higher sentence than third degree murder.

You may feel that Noor and Chauvin should have gotten the same sentence, but the evidence, court case and jury proved different.

Chauvin's actions in keeping his knee on Floyd's neck for a prolonged period of time, after Floyd said he'd comply, passed out and died, and with Chauvin not having any regard for Floyd's health and safety, all gave weight to the charge of second degree murder. That's what makes it different to the Noor case.

Noor was charged, tried and sentenced based on his actions. So was Chauvin. Their actions were different. Their charges were different. Their sentences were different.

Snake Plisken

Penn wrote: »

The difference, as you well know, is the charge of second degree murder in the case of Chauvin. That carries a higher sentence than third degree murder.

You may feel that Noor and Chauvin should have gotten the same sentence, but the evidence, court case and jury proved different.

Chauvin's actions in keeping his knee on Floyd's neck for a prolonged period of time, after Floyd said he'd comply, passed out and died, and with Chauvin not having any regard for Floyd's health and safety, all gave weight to the charge of second degree murder. That's what makes it different to the Noor case.

Noor was charged, tried and sentenced based on his actions. So was Chauvin. Their actions were different. Their charges were different. Their sentences were different.

And I suppose the amount of drugs in Floyd's system didn t play a part in his death ! seems to me if Chauvin had shot Floyd dead rather then do what the state trained him to do in restraining Floyd he would have got a lighter sentance ! Imo Chauvin is guilty of not paying attention to Floyd's condition and he should do jail time for that but not what he got. Seems to be the Somalian got off very lightly for cold blooded murder!

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's what a large portion of modern rightwing thought and conservatism is though. Defend any sort of bigot no matter the cost and humiliation incurred in the process.

Lol.

Like a large portion of leftwing thought:

Defend any criminal and their actions once they aren't white regardless of how abhorrent their character or beliefs are. Just once you can invoke some sort of racism and bolster your own white saviour complex.

ohnonotgmail

Snake Plisken wrote: »

And I suppose the amount of drugs in Floyd's system didn t play a part in his death ! seems to me if Chauvin had shot Floyd dead rather then do what the state trained him to do in restraining Floyd he would have got a lighter sentance ! Imo Chauvin is guilty of not paying attention to Floyd's condition and he should do jail time for that but not what he got. Seems to be the Somalian got off very lightly for cold blooded murder!

Chauvin is guilty of kneeling on a mans neck until that man died. It wasn't a case of not paying attention. It was a case of not caring if he died. The sentence was too light if anything.

briany

Deleted User wrote: »

Im no fan of the online left but look lads, kneeling on a fellas neck for nine minutes on camera as he tells you he cannot breathe is not the hill i would choose to die on

That's why the tactic is to argue around it. Criticise BLM. Criticise the media response. Criticise George Floyd's past. The police sure have a hard job. Pull the argument away from the inarguable, and diminish the central incident to a background thing. Imagine a field with no crops and just banks of useless straw men, and you've got a got an apt metaphor for the arguments around the killing of George Floyd.

martingriff

Snake Plisken wrote: »

And I suppose the amount of drugs in Floyd's system didn t play a part in his death ! seems to me if Chauvin had shot Floyd dead rather then do what the state trained him to do in restraining Floyd he would have got a lighter sentance ! Imo Chauvin is guilty of not paying attention to Floyd's condition and he should do jail time for that but not what he got. Seems to be the Somalian got off very lightly for cold blooded murder!

No he did not do what he was trained to do as if he did he be off him once he passed out. Also it is irrelevant what drugs he had as Chauvins action caused his death.

Here is an example it's called the egg shell principal I think. You and another person are in a fight. You hit them once and they go down. Now unknown to you is the person had a disease that made there skull brittle. So the person dies. You still get charged with murder as your actions made it happen

Biker79

martingriff wrote: »

No he did not do what he was trained to do as if he did he be off him once he passed out. Also it is irrelevant what drugs he had as Chauvins action caused his death.

Here is an example it's called the egg shell principal I think. You and another person are in a fight. You hit them once and they go down. Now unknown to you is the person had a disease that made there skull brittle. So the person dies. You still get charged with murder as your actions made it happen

A completely false analogy.

It would work if one fighter secretly sabotaged himself with brittle bone disease, so that the other fighter would leave him alone and thus facilitate his exclusion from the fight...

Which is exactly what Floyd had done, with success, in 2019.

It's the oldest trick in the junkie toolbox.

Penn

Snake Plisken wrote: »

And I suppose the amount of drugs in Floyd's system didn t play a part in his death ! seems to me if Chauvin had shot Floyd dead rather then do what the state trained him to do in restraining Floyd he would have got a lighter sentance ! Imo Chauvin is guilty of not paying attention to Floyd's condition and he should do jail time for that but not what he got. Seems to be the Somalian got off very lightly for cold blooded murder!

See now you're just purposefully conflating two different scenarios, plus adding hypotheticals, all to make a point which still isn't borne out of any facts.

You initially brought up the Noor case to say Chauvin should have gotten a lighter sentence similar to what Noor got. Now you're saying "the Somalian" should have gotten a harsher sentence.

There wasn't the same level of intent in Noor's actions compared to Chauvin. He and his partner were taken by surprise by the appearance of Justine Diamond, and Noor acted completely irresponsibly (whether out of panic or just incompetence) and fired a shot at her (not knowing who she was or what her intentions were). They both tried to adminster first aid to keep her alive until paramedics came.

Chauvin knelt on Floyd's neck to restrain him, then intentionally stayed there after Floyd promised to comply, after he stopped resisting, after he stopped moving, after he stopped breathing, and for about 4 minutes after that. Chauvin did not intend to kill Floyd, no-one generally claims otherwise. But Chauvin's actions were intentional, and he was not acting out of fear or self-defence. He intentionally chose to kneel on Floyd's neck. He intentionally stayed kneeling on his neck instead of checking on Floyd after he passed out & died. He intentionally stayed kneeling on Floyd's neck rather than checking on his condition.

There was an intent in Chauvin's actions that simply do not warrant comparison to the Noor case. That intent was proven beyond a reasonable doubt to the jury in a court of law. That intent led to a jury finding him guilty of second degree murder, which carries higher sentencing than what Noor was found guilty of.

Biker79

Biker79 wrote: »

A completely false analogy.

It would work if one fighter secretly sabotaged himself with brittle bone disease, so that the other fighter would leave him alone and thus facilitate his exclusion from the flight...

Which is exactly what Floyd had done, with success, in 2019.

It's the oldest trick in the junkie toolbox.

He was handcuffed and Chauvin entirely had upper hand... So ya, stop trying to retrial it cause the result is pretty clear.

martingriff

Biker79 wrote: »

A completely false analogy.

It would work if one fighter secretly sabotaged himself with brittle bone disease, so that the other fighter would leave him alone and thus facilitate his exclusion from the flight...

Which is exactly what Floyd had done, with success, in 2019.

It's the oldest trick in the junkie toolbox.

The point of the apology is the person is responsible for there actions and you do nothing that will harm a person

Biker79

Deleted User wrote: »

He was handcuffed and Chauvin entirely had upper hand... So ya, stop trying to retrial it cause the result is pretty clear.

He had already attempted to sabotage his arrest, with a strategic overdose, during the 40 mins leading up to Chauvin arriving.

He had successfully done exactly this in 2019.

What's clear to me now is that Chauvin should not have been charged in the first place. Reprimanded yes... his behavior was excessive.

But Floyd wasn't strolling down the shops, minding his own business, when suddenly jumped by police during which he lost his life - which is the narrative attempted by some.

He was a convicted violent offender, in the process of committing a felony and subsequently attempting to avoid/ sabotage his arrest with a drug overdose.

The outcome of the trial doesn't change those facts.

Biker79

martingriff wrote: »

The point of the apology is the person is responsible for there actions and you do nothing that will harm a person

Which is exactly why junkies use this technique to avoid being arrested.

Its why Dublin city center/ San Fran/ LA are in a complete mess. Its due to proliferation of junkies/ anti-social types and police reluctance to engage with them.

Penn

Biker79 wrote: »

He had already attempted to sabotage his arrest, with a strategic overdose, during the 40 mins leading up to Chauvin arriving.

He had successfully done exactly this in 2019.

What's clear to me now is that Chauvin should not have been charged in the first place. Reprimanded yes... his behavior was excessive.

But Floyd wasn't strolling down the shops, minding his own business, when suddenly jumped by police during which he lost his life - which is the narrative attempted by some.

He was a convicted violent offender, in the process of committing a felony and subsequently attempting to avoid/ sabotage his arrest with a drug overdose.

The outcome of the trial doesn't change those facts.

Correct. The outcome of the trial doesn't change those facts. Important to note however, those facts relate to Floyd, not Chauvin. George Floyd wasn't the one on trial. He didn't make it to trial. Chauvin killed him.

Chauvin was convicted based on his actions. No-one is saying Floyd shouldn't have been arrested, or restrained. Chauvin's conviction was based on his actions in the course of his duty. His actions made him culpable in Floyd's death, and the evidence pointed to Chauvin being intentionally negligent in his actions and acting with intent in those actions which resulted in Floyd's death (even if Floyd's death wasn't intentional).

The outcome of the trial was based on those facts.

martingriff

Biker79 wrote: »

Which is exactly why junkies use this technique to avoid being arrested.

Its why Dublin city center/ San Fran/ LA are in a complete mess. Its due to proliferation of junkies/ anti-social types and police reluctance to engage with them.

Overdose on purpose give me a break. You can treat and then arrest. Does not change the fact what Chauvin did anyway.

ohnonotgmail

Biker79 wrote: »

He had already attempted to sabotage his arrest, with a strategic overdose, during the 40 mins leading up to Chauvin arriving.

He had successfully done exactly this in 2019.

What's clear to me now is that Chauvin should not have been charged in the first place. Reprimanded yes... his behavior was excessive.

But Floyd wasn't strolling down the shops, minding his own business, when suddenly jumped by police during which he lost his life - which is the narrative attempted by some.

He was a convicted violent offender, in the process of committing a felony and subsequently attempting to avoid/ sabotage his arrest with a drug overdose.

The outcome of the trial doesn't change those facts.

And nothing you said changes the fact that chauvin is a convicted murderer.

Foxtrol

cdeb wrote: »

What has that to do with anything?

It shows the utter hypocrisy of posters, potentially including you, who do not question that there was systematic issues in policing and other aspects of life in the north against the catholic community during the troubles while at the same time twist themselves in knots ignoring similar systematic issues against non-white communities, especially in the US.

The same people thought the RUC were wrong for attacking peaceful protesters in the north here laughing at videos of police in the US attacking peaceful anti-racism protesters.

The same people who supported the abolition of the RUC, outraged at calls to change the way policing is funded and performed in the US.

The same people who demand black people 'get on with it' and 'stop being victims' support all the changes made to in the north to reduce systematic disparities that had a greater impact on the Catholic communities.

I could go on and on. I understand it is easier to feel sympathy for people we have closer ties to but the hypocrisy is so obvious.

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

It shows the utter hypocrisy of posters, potentially including you, who do not question that there was systematic issues in policing and other aspects of life in the north against the catholic community during the troubles while at the same time twist themselves in knots ignoring similar systematic issues against non-white communities, especially in the US.

The same people thought the RUC were wrong for attacking peaceful protesters in the north here laughing at videos of police in the US attacking peaceful anti-racism protesters.

The same people who supported the abolition of the RUC, outraged at calls to change the way policing is funded and performed in the US.

The same people who demand black people 'get on with it' and 'stop being victims' support all the changes made to in the north to reduce systematic disparities that had a greater impact on the Catholic communities.

I could go on and on. I understand it is easier to feel sympathy for people we have closer ties to but the hypocrisy is so obvious.

A policeman acted incredibly recklessly and has been convicted for over two decades.

Is that justice?

Should the race of either people concerned be a factor?

Should there be a higher punishment because of your perceived inequality (which is racim btw)?

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

I could go on and on. I understand it is easier to feel sympathy for people we have closer ties to but the hypocrisy is so obvious.

Expand on that if you will.

take everything

Do people here think that the conviction and sentence Chauvin received was in any way influenced by the threat of riots/violence. If so, it goes without saying that that's a huge issue in this trial.

Does anyone acknowledge that there may have existed such an influence.

Tell me how

take everything wrote: »

Do people here think that the conviction and sentence Chauvin received was in any way influenced by the threat of riots/violence. If so, it goes without saying that that's a huge issue in this trial.

Does anyone acknowledge that there may have existed such an influence.

No. Many, including Floyd's family have expressed the sentiment that the verdict was not enough and yet there is no hint of protest or riots.

The judge himself said that he was determining sentencing with no consideration towards outside influences.

The permissible sentencing for one of the things he was convicted of is 40 years, he got just over half that. If the sentence had been designed to quell unrest, surely the judge would have gone closer to using the sentencing bandwidth available to him.

take everything

take everything wrote: »

Do people here think that the conviction and sentence Chauvin received was in any way influenced by the threat of riots/violence. If so, it goes without saying that that's a huge issue in this trial.

Does anyone acknowledge that there may have existed such an influence.

I've no doubt that the jury in the trial were not compromised.

I also don't believe that chauvin's actions were lawful.

It's horrible.

Penn

take everything wrote: »

Do people here think that the conviction and sentence Chauvin received was in any way influenced by the threat of riots/violence. If so, it goes without saying that that's a huge issue in this trial.

Does anyone acknowledge that there may have existed such an influence.

I don't. Even if you just narrow it down to the jury, the idea that 12 seperate people would conspire to find a man guilty of a crime just because of the potential risk of riots, and not one of them would stand against that, is ridiculous. Even if people rioted following the decision, that's on the rioters, not the jury, and I think given the riots of the previous year after Floyd's death, the police, guards, general security throughout the city would have been somewhat more prepared than then.

If I imagine myself on the jury, if I legitimately felt that Chauvin was innocent of one or more of the charges, the risk of riots wouldn't influence my decision. I'd stand by my decision, hung jury and riots or not. You cannot send an innocent man to jail for a crime he didn't commit due to a perceived potential event.

All 12 members of the jury found him guilty of all charges. Even if Chauvin was only found guilty of one or two of the lesser charges, he'd still be jailed, which might have reduced the chances of a riot happening (even if people weren't happy with him not being found guilty of all charges). But all 12 members found him guilty of all charges. To me, that signifies that all 12 felt he was guilty of all charges, unless some evidence to the contrary presents itself.

ohnonotgmail

take everything wrote: »

Do people here think that the conviction and sentence Chauvin received was in any way influenced by the threat of riots/violence. If so, it goes without saying that that's a huge issue in this trial.

Does anyone acknowledge that there may have existed such an influence.

the conviction and sentence was influenced by the evidence presented. stop trying to portray Chauvin as the victim here. there was only one victim in this case and he died with Chauvin's knee on his neck.

Biker79

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the conviction and sentence was influenced by the evidence presented. stop trying to portray Chauvin as the victim here. there was only one victim in this case and he died with Chauvin's knee on his neck.

Really? Then why persist with the ' wont someone please think of the children ' emotional incontinence?

Because thats the only way you can get your point of view over the line. By drowning everyone in hyperbole. Typical of Woke leftism.

The decision to charge Chauvin and the outcome of this Trial will only weaken law and order. Police will hesitate to engage with difficult situations as a result, in case the prevailing political winds mean they will end up in jail for trying to do their job.

Criminals will become more daring, because they now know of another weakness in arrest protocols.

The net effect of the incident will be greater criminality and a law abiding public exposed to more crime.

The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions.

take everything

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the conviction and sentence was influenced by the evidence presented. stop trying to portray Chauvin as the victim here. there was only one victim in this case and he died with Chauvin's knee on his neck.

I just asked a fair (imho) question.
Nowhere did i try to portray Chauvin as a victim.

Penn

Biker79 wrote: »

Really? Then why persist with the ' wont someone please think of the children ' emotional incontinence?

Because thats the only way you can get your point of view over the line. By drowning everyone in hyperbole. Typical of Woke leftism.

The decision to charge Chauvin and the outcome of this Trial will only weaken law and order. Police will hesitate to engage with difficult situations as a result, in case the prevailing political winds mean they will end up in jail for trying to do their job.

Criminals will become more daring, because they now know of another weakness in arrest protocols.

The net effect of the incident will be greater criminality and a law abiding public exposed to more crime.

The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions.

So that's what your argument is reduced to? Now that Chauvin has been found guilty and sentenced accordingly, we have a slippery slope argument that criminals will be emboldened and police running scared. All because one cop who was demonstrably proven to have not done his job properly and to have been unnecessarily cruel in doing his job, resulting in a man's death.

There's no middle ground? Cops can't just, I don't know, not kneel on a suspects neck, but on their shoulder instead? They can't put the suspect in another position after they've been restrained? They can't check on a suspects condition?

You can't accuse people of being hyperbolic, and then be hyperbolic. That's too much bolic's.

Sonics2k

Biker79 wrote: »

Really? Then why persist with the ' wont someone please think of the children ' emotional incontinence?

Because thats the only way you can get your point of view over the line. By drowning everyone in hyperbole. Typical of Woke leftism.

The decision to charge Chauvin and the outcome of this Trial will only weaken law and order. Police will hesitate to engage with difficult situations as a result, in case the prevailing political winds mean they will end up in jail for trying to do their job.

Criminals will become more daring, because they now know of another weakness in arrest protocols.

The net effect of the incident will be greater criminality and a law abiding public exposed to more crime.

The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions.

He knelt on a man's neck for 9 minutes. Nine whole minutes.

If this case stops cops from recklessly endangering people for the simple reason that they're cops, then good.

Floyds history and past mean nothing. Chauvin kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes and killed him. There is no debate on this.

Sonics2k

Sonics2k wrote: »

He knelt on a man's neck for 9 minutes. Nine whole minutes.

If this case stops cops from recklessly endangering people for the simple reason that they're cops, then good.

Floyds history and past mean nothing. Chauvin kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes and killed him. There is no debate on this.

And he was sentenced to over two decades in prison.

Good.

A policeman shouldn't be reckless with his authority and end up killing someone.

Still though, why is this a race issue?

ohnonotgmail

take everything wrote: »

I just asked a fair (imho) question.
Nowhere did i try to portray Chauvin as a victim.

you think he only was only convicted and received the sentence he did because of the fear of riots. that is portraying him as a victim.

ohnonotgmail

Biker79 wrote: »

Really? Then why persist with the ' wont someone please think of the children ' emotional incontinence?

Because thats the only way you can get your point of view over the line. By drowning everyone in hyperbole. Typical of Woke leftism.

The decision to charge Chauvin and the outcome of this Trial will only weaken law and order. Police will hesitate to engage with difficult situations as a result, in case the prevailing political winds mean they will end up in jail for trying to do their job.

Criminals will become more daring, because they now know of another weakness in arrest protocols.

The net effect of the incident will be greater criminality and a law abiding public exposed to more crime.

The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions.

the net effect will be that maybe police officers will think twice before endangering the lives of those they are trying to arrest. Maybe.