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Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,299 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    The old argument of blacks being killed by the cops more frequently than whites has been debunked countless times

    here is another stats

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

    It has been pointed out to you many times as to the misrepresentation your post is given the comparative size of black populations versus white.

    I've seen your weak attempt to suggest 'involvement in crime' as some sort of collary but your possibly being deliberately effusive there as well.

    Is someone 'involved in crime' if police officers suspect them to be so? Because if so that's just part of the same prejudicial viewpoint that this whole thing is about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    since logic isnt your strongest skill, see below for more details

    My logic is grand thanks. yours on the other hand ...
    The old argument of blacks being killed by the cops more frequently than whites has been debunked countless times

    is nonsense you have keep reposting in the hope that repetition might make it true.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,477 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    No, as many said before

    you need to look at the ratio of black v whites population, black v whites ratio of involvement with crime, brack v white ratio of killings by the cops

    As you said before
    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    The old argument of blacks being killed by the cops more frequently than whites has been debunked countless times

    You then posted a link to a page which had a graph showing only the numerical figures of people killed by police, by race. However, a link on that page brings you to this other graph, which shows the rate (not number) of fatal police shootings by ethnicity. It shows that black people, per million, are almost 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white people.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123070/police-shootings-rate-ethnicity-us/

    So again, do you now agree based on the statistics that black people are more likely to be killed than white people?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    No need to ask the same question over and over, it's been answered pretty well already pages ago
    if the crime rate is high in a specific ethnic group, then the killing by the police rate will be higher too


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,477 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    No need to ask the same question over and over, it's been answered pretty well already pages ago
    if the crime rate is high in a specific ethnic group, then the killing by the police rate will be higher too

    It seems I did need to keep asking the question over and over, because what you're saying now is the complete opposite of your post I keep quoting.
    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    The old argument of blacks being killed by the cops more frequently than whites has been debunked countless times

    But fair enough, no point discussing further.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Expand on that if you will.

    What part do I need to expand on, the hypocrisy is obvious... Posters go out of their way to provide excuses for US police officers that they'd never give for RUC officers who acted the same way. Similarly, key parts of the Good Friday agreement voted overwhelmingly by the Irish people align with demands of anti-police protesters in the US - who some here claim are 'crazy' demands that would end civilisation as we know it.

    Take the below (I'm not calling the poster here hypocritical as I haven't seen them post some of the disgusting stuff you and others come out with).
    briany wrote: »
    I can understand from just a human standpoint how a police officer might become jaded towards black people if all they do day in day out is run up on predominantly black gang bangers in some inner city area. It's still not any kind of excuse, though, if that officer uses excessive force against someone due to an acquired prejudice.

    Imagine making the statement on boards or any pub in Ireland that from a human standpoint how an RUC officer who had just been sentenced to murder of an unarmed Catholic person for choking them to death for 9 minutes might have justifiably become jaded towards the Catholic community in the north given the terrorism, crime, and violence coming from that community.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    What part do I need to expand on, the hypocrisy is obvious... Posters go out of their way to provide excuses for US police officers that they'd never give for RUC officers who acted the same way. Similarly, key parts of the Good Friday agreement voted overwhelmingly by the Irish people align with demands of anti-police protesters in the US - who some here claim are 'crazy' demands that would end civilisation as we know it.

    Take the below (I'm not calling the poster here hypocritical as I haven't seen them post some of the disgusting stuff you and others come out with).



    Imagine making the statement on boards or any pub in Ireland that from a human standpoint how an RUC officer who had just been sentenced to murder of an unarmed Catholic person for choking them to death for 9 minutes might have justifiably become jaded towards the Catholic community in the north given the terrorism, crime, and violence coming from that community.

    I'm sorry foxtrol, I can't in good conscience engage with you further until you tell me what "disgusting stuff" I come out with.

    These types of baseless and insulting statements need to be challenged as it seems to be a go to tactic in order to dismiss a differing opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    I'm sorry foxtrol, I can't in good conscience engage with you further until you tell me what "disgusting stuff" I come out with.

    These types of baseless and insulting statements need to be challenged as it seems to be a go to tactic in order to dismiss a differing opinion.

    Just yesterday you called BLM protesters 'racist thugs'. Would you label all catholic protesters in the north during troubles 'thugs' due to the actions of a minority who regularly turned protests violent? Some Bloody Sunday protesters were throwing rocks at police - were all those protesters also 'thugs'? I'd call those kind of statements disgusting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,808 ✭✭✭take everything


    Yeah right. You just happened to ask a leading question. Entirely innocent like.

    Eh no. No I didn't.
    I asked a simple question which seems to have upset you unduly.

    You're coming across as very emotional in this and most of your other replies to posters.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972



    is nonsense you have keep reposting in the hope that repetition might make it true.


    Actually, I posted that line only once, but it got replicated countless times today alone. I must have said something right


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Penn wrote: »
    It seems I did need to keep asking the question over and over, because what you're saying now is the complete opposite of your post I keep quoting.



    But fair enough, no point discussing further.


    These 2 posts of mine must have really annoyed you because you decided to answer them twice in the span of 30 minutes :confused:


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Just yesterday you called BLM protesters 'racist thugs'. Would you label all catholic protesters in the north during troubles 'thugs' due to the actions of a minority who regularly turned protests violent? Some Bloody Sunday protesters were throwing rocks at police - were all those protesters also 'thugs'? I'd call those kind of statements disgusting.

    Can you please give me the context in which I said that? I am happy to clarify.

    I don't consider every person who protests against racial inequality as racist thugs. I do consider people who align themselves with BLM as racist thugs.

    Also the BLM organisation and Catholic protesters are not comparable.

    I would consider IRA sympathisers thugs.


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    No need to ask the same question over and over, it's been answered pretty well already pages ago
    if the crime rate is high in a specific ethnic group, then the killing by the police rate will be higher too

    Why would the crime rate being high automatically lead to killings by police being higher?
    Now, if you said that it leads to higher rates of that ethnic group in the prison population, or conviction rates for that group, well and good, there is a connection.
    But, you believe that if an ethnic group commit more crime, they will automatically be killed more by police...........seems you agree with posters here you think you're arguing with!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,477 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    These 2 posts of mine must have really annoyed you because you decided to answer them twice in the span of 30 minutes :confused:

    I was just hoping you'd have the honesty and integrity to admit you were wrong and were, intentionally or accidentally, misrepresenting statistics. I thought by giving you the chance we could have a proper discussion, but you clearly decided against that.

    At least I tried.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Why would the crime rate being high automatically lead to killings by police being higher?
    Now, if you said that it leads to higher rates of that ethnic group in the prison population, or conviction rates for that group, well and good, there is a connection.
    But, you believe that if an ethnic group commit more crime, they will automatically be killed more by police...........seems you agree with posters here you think you're arguing with!

    It’s almost like mic doesn’t realise cops aren’t supposed to kill people.

    In fairness to him it appears some cops haven’t figured that out either.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Why would the crime rate being high automatically lead to killings by police being higher?
    Now, if you said that it leads to higher rates of that ethnic group in the prison population, or conviction rates for that group, well and good, there is a connection.
    But, you believe that if an ethnic group commit more crime, they will automatically be killed more by police...........seems you agree with posters here you think you're arguing with!

    More interaction with the police would surely increase the likelihood of lethal force being used as well as a higher rate of conviction/arrests.

    I'm not sure I get where you are coming from


  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    I do consider people who align themselves with BLM as racist thugs.

    93% of BLM protests are peaceful. With no riots, no over-policing, nothing.

    The fact you will label all of them racist thugs is absolutely disgusting and you just throw that point out despite the facts being spelled out to you all the time.


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    More interaction with the police would surely increase the likelihood of lethal force being used as well as a higher rate of conviction/arrests.

    I'm not sure I get where you are coming from

    How does more interaction with police lead to more killings by police? I'm not sure how you think that makes sense?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    How does more interaction with police lead to more killings by police? I'm not sure how you think that makes sense?

    If a certain demographic has more interaction with the police, then the likelihood of fatal interactions will be increased within that demographic.


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If a certain demographic has more interaction with the police, then the likelihood of fatal interactions will be increased within that demographic.

    Which means you believe that police are more likely to kill someone who is in that demographic.
    In this case black.
    Just for interacting with police.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Which means you believe that police are more likely to kill someone who is in that demographic.
    In this case black.
    Just for interacting with police.

    That's not even close to what I am saying.

    I'm saying that the more interactions with police, the greater the likelihood of one of those interactions will end up
    escalating into a fatal consequence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Actually, I posted that line only once, but it got replicated countless times today alone. I must have said something right

    many people correcting you is not an indication that you said something right. Don't worry though, if you ever do get anything right I will be sure to let you know.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    I can see him getting a new trial based on attorney incompetence. There was a biased juror that any competent lawyer would never have allowed sit on the jury. But the guy is dead broke and an attorney would have to take on the case pro bono, but I don’t think it will happen because no attorney would want all that negative publicity.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,299 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I can see him getting a new trial based on attorney incompetence. There was a biased juror that any competent lawyer would never have allowed sit on the jury. But the guy is dead broke and an attorney would have to take on the case pro bono, but I don’t think it will happen because no attorney would want all that negative publicity.

    Did you just change your mind while typing a single post?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Can you please give me the context in which I said that? I am happy to clarify.

    Do you throw out terms like that so often that you cannot keep track of what you posted yesterday?
    The gesture is linked to BLM. Regardless of what anyone else says. It's intrinsically linked because of the actions of racist thugs over the past year or so.
    I don't consider every person who protests against racial inequality as racist thugs. I do consider people who align themselves with BLM as racist thugs.

    Also the BLM organisation and Catholic protesters are not comparable.

    I would consider IRA sympathisers thugs.

    The BLM Movement and the Catholic community movement are very comparable, they even cover many of the same themes - including equality and policing.

    There were elements a both BLM protests and Catholic community protests that got involved in violence, rioted, and attacked police yet you want to paint everyone that is associated with the BLM movement with the worst part of it while trying to carve out a tiny piece of the protesters in the north that were wrongdoers.

    This is the exact hypocrisy I was talking about - it has stunk this place out for the last year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I can see him getting a new trial based on attorney incompetence. There was a biased juror that any competent lawyer would never have allowed sit on the jury. But the guy is dead broke and an attorney would have to take on the case pro bono, but I don’t think it will happen because no attorney would want all that negative publicity.

    were all 12 jurors biased? He hasn't a hope in hell of getting a new trial because of ineffective representation of counsel. There are cases of attorneys being drunk during the trial, falling asleep during the trial, having an active mental illness during a trial and that still didn't count as ineffective assistance of counsel.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I can see him getting a new trial based on attorney incompetence. There was a biased juror that any competent lawyer would never have allowed sit on the jury. But the guy is dead broke and an attorney would have to take on the case pro bono, but I don’t think it will happen because no attorney would want all that negative publicity.

    That is just wrong, the Police Association/Union are paying all his legal fees


  • Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭bewareofthedog


    Faugheen wrote: »
    93% of BLM protests are peaceful. With no riots, no over-policing, nothing.

    The fact you will label all of them racist thugs is absolutely disgusting and you just throw that point out despite the facts being spelled out to you all the time.

    99.999999999999999% of police interactions with the public are peaceful.

    The fact that you say there's a widespread problem in dealing with minorities is absolutely disgusting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Did you just change your mind while typing a single post?

    Nope. I can see him getting a new trial if he could get a good lawyer.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Penn wrote: »
    I was just hoping you'd have the honesty and integrity to admit you were wrong and were, intentionally or accidentally, misrepresenting statistics. I thought by giving you the chance we could have a proper discussion, but you clearly decided against that.

    At least I tried.


    You have been answered many times over already, not just by me.
    The stats are very clear as to who are more likely to be looking for trouble.
    go looking for trouble, and you will find it


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    were all 12 jurors biased? He hasn't a hope in hell of getting a new trial because of ineffective representation of counsel. There are cases of attorneys being drunk during the trial, falling asleep during the trial, having an active mental illness during a trial and that still didn't count as ineffective assistance of counsel.
    The Sixth Amendment guarantees your right to effective counsel. Look up “Ineffective assistance of counsel.”

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,316 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Why would a competent lawyer take a guaranteed loss in trying to save Chauvin :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    99.999999999999999% of police interactions with the public are peaceful.

    The fact that you say there's a widespread problem in dealing with minorities is absolutely disgusting.

    So you're claiming the hundreds of thousands of black people that marched in the US over the last year are lying about their experiences and concerns?

    I'd like to see that evidence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    many people correcting you is not an indication that you said something right. Don't worry though, if you ever do get anything right I will be sure to let you know.


    Many people agreeing with one another doesn't make a truth.
    No matter how many times you can dissect the stats.

    To avoid being killed by the cops is very easy, be honest and the cops won't come for you. if they do, collaborate and don't resist arrest


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    notobtuse wrote: »
    The Sixth Amendment guarantees your right to effective counsel. Look up “Ineffective assistance of counsel.”

    I did before I answered. They (The Supreme Court) set a very high bar for the defendant to prove their counsel was ineffective. Chauvins attorney doesn't even come close.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    So you're claiming the hundreds of thousands of black people that marched in the US over the last year are lying about their experiences and concerns?

    I'd like to see that evidence.


    Did their experience with the police have anything to do with their behavior in the first place? Was there anything they could do to avoid getting in trouble with the cops?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Many people agreeing with one another doesn't make a truth.
    No matter how many times you can dissect the stats.

    To avoid being killed by the cops is very easy, be honest and the cops won't come for you. if they do, collaborate and don't resist arrest

    You were wrong with your original assertion. You didnt understand the difference between absolute stats and per capita stats. Be smart enough not to continually remind others of your error.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    You have been answered many times over already, not just by me.
    The stats are very clear as to who are more likely to be looking for trouble.
    go looking for trouble, and you will find it

    Are you describing the police approach that stopped and searched non-white people at a much higher rate than white people that was later found to be unconstitutional?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭Billy Mays


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Did their experience with the police have anything to do with their behavior in the first place? Was there anything they could do to avoid getting in trouble with the cops?
    They could stop driving I suppose


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Did their experience with the police have anything to do with their behavior in the first place? Was there anything they could do to avoid getting in trouble with the cops?

    Same as in the north, they saw police discriminating against their community.

    I'm sure you supported the RUC too, more interactions with the Catholic community and all that...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Billy Mays wrote: »
    They could stop driving I suppose


    or maybe they could simply collaborate with the cops when they get stopped instead of becoming confrontational


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Do you throw out terms like that so often that you cannot keep track of what you posted yesterday?

    Ah my dear friend, the context is indeed key.
    The gesture is linked to BLM. Regardless of what anyone else says. It's intrinsically linked because of the actions of racist thugs over the past year or so.

    That's not even remotely controversial. The kneeling gesture was hijacked by the disgusting BLM movement. I won't support anyone using that gesture as a protest. How is that disgusting?

    And no, BLM and Catholicism aren't comparable.

    As I stated previously, people campaigning for racial equality outside the banner of BLM, I wholeheartedly support. Much as I support Catholics looking for equal treatment once they don't do so under the IRA banner.

    There's the difference.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    You were wrong with your original assertion. You didnt understand the difference between absolute stats and per capita stats. Be smart enough not to continually remind others of your error.


    stop the gaslighting, unfortunately for the majority of honest black people who really get a bad reputation unfairly, the crime stats are not in their favor


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭Billy Mays


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    or collaborate with the cops when they get stopped instead of becoming confrontational
    Or the cops could stop pulling people over for dwb


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Same as in the north, they saw police discriminating against their community.

    I'm sure you supported the RUC too, more interactions with the Catholic community and all that...


    Diverging the question


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    stop the gaslighting, unfortunately for the majority of honest black people who really get a bad reputation unfairly, the crime stats are not in their favor

    Jesus, i've seen people doubling and tripling down but you take the biscuit. You're not worth responding to.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Billy Mays wrote: »
    Or the cops could stop pulling people over for dwb


    the cops can pull people whenever they see fit, as an honest citizen you have nothing to worry about
    ...until you decide to reach for your pocket or do something stupid


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Jesus, i've seen people doubling and tripling down but you take the biscuit. You're not worth responding to.


    your replies wont be missed


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    your replies wont be missed

    and yours won't be seen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    and yours won't be seen.


    like the one you just replied to?


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