Formula 1 2021 - General Discussion Thread (Read 1st post rules)

F1 2022 car style revealed:

https://twitter.com/Burgrid16/status/1407061601220431872?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1407062437862457344%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.planetf1.com%2Fnews%2Ff1-2022-car-first-images%2F

mickdw wrote: »

There was talk of it. I think the emissions scandal costs put it to bed for a few years.
I think you need to time your entry to f1 too.
The last 7 ir so years have been locked down solid by mercedes. Audi are not going to throw a billion at it only to be guaranteed to be behind mercedes. Hopefully, over the next few years we will see another german brand in f1.
Bmw came in and failed for the most part.
Toyota came and promised a championship - they achieved nothing and those 2 were years ago. Its even more impossible now to come and succeed.

VW has looked at F1 in a few ways and it's such a shame the emissions scandal ruined their prospects of entering. I think they were looking at entering under the Audi brand at that stage and Porsche and Lamborghini have been mentioned at other times too.

And you're right about how timing is so important too. VW was one of the group who helped develop the current engine regulations (I think, but I'm not sure) so they could join during the formula. They wanted to be involved to make sure the engine technology is relevant and we ended up with a compromise engine regulation that nobody really wanted and then they pulled out anyway.

The current manufacturers want to make sure that the engines have relevance to future technology, otherwise what's the point? And an established manufacturer like Mercedes wants the engines to be technologically difficult and future looking (and they have already invested a lot of money in cracking the technology and making it work) where a new manufacturer would prefer a simpler engine which they wouldn't need to invest so much in becoming competitive.

Truth is that Formula E has more relevance to the future technology than F1 at the moment and is much cheaper - much more bang for their buck. They have no trouble enticing manufacturers. Mercedes, Jaguar, Audi, Porsche, Nissan and BMW. F1 is back down to 3 manufacturers next year and bringing in an engine freeze. Technology freeze is the opposite to future technology innovation.

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

I do love F1. So here is a daft question, but how come the likes of Audi, Lamborghini don't challenge in this area. I know both of these suppliers are very different but does F1 not have any attraction to them. And if so I would really like to understand why not

The current engine formula locks anyone out of being competitive. Mercedes were working for years - reportedly since 2007 - to prepare their 2014 engine, which they have evolved ever since. There are extremely strict rules on testing and development which makes it very difficult to catch up.

Honda suffered a huge amount of reputational damage and are only now finally in a position where they can compete for the first time, and they've actually already committed to pulling out of the sport. Renault suffered huge damage too, and they were very close to pulling out a couple of years ago but decided to commit to the Alpine rebrand instead.

There is just zero reason for a manufacturer to enter the sport while the regulations require crazy amounts of spending on mega-complex engines, with very little chance of a return on that.

It's very different to 10-20 years ago when the likes of BMW, Ford, Toyota, Peugeot and even smaller independent manufacturers like Cosworth could afford to jump in and get involved and they didn't have to guarantee success to justify the costs involved.

The whole "road relevance" argument is little more than smoke and mirrors. The current cars are not in any way road relevant. The rules were formulated to serve two purposes - one was that the word "hybrid" was a good marketing term for the manufacturers, and the second was that the manufacturers most heavily involved in forcing the rules through knew it would give them a competitive advantage and create huge barriers for others to compete with them.

Other series feature far more road relevant tech and have far fewer issues attracting manufacturers. Formula 1 never was, and shouldn't be, about road relevance, as it was always about building the fastest racing cars possible, which is in no way related to the daily commute. Unfortunately the current rules make it much, much more expensive to build a fast racing car - the all conquering Mercedes from the start of the hybrid era was slower around most tracks than a Minardi on 5% of the budget 10 years earlier for example. They've made up some of that lost pace now of course with ever more advanced aero, but at a cost of billions across all the teams.

The V10, V8 engine was something most manufacturers had already developed or could outsource it to e.g Hart, mecachrome, mugen
Those were able to develop an engine what is now unthinkable.

Formula E is loosing Audi and BMW after this year.

Pen Rua wrote: »

Both of whom moving back to top level endurance racing with LMDh programmes in 2023, with a focus on IMSA (US based endurance), but with scope for European races (Le Mans) insofar as I understand.

this is the timeline for entries into the WEC

quokula wrote: »

The current engine formula locks anyone out of being competitive. Mercedes were working for years - reportedly since 2007 - to prepare their 2014 engine, which they have evolved ever since. There are extremely strict rules on testing and development which makes it very difficult to catch up.

Honda suffered a huge amount of reputational damage and are only now finally in a position where they can compete for the first time, and they've actually already committed to pulling out of the sport. Renault suffered huge damage too, and they were very close to pulling out a couple of years ago but decided to commit to the Alpine rebrand instead.

There is just zero reason for a manufacturer to enter the sport while the regulations require crazy amounts of spending on mega-complex engines, with very little chance of a return on that.

It's very different to 10-20 years ago when the likes of BMW, Ford, Toyota, Peugeot and even smaller independent manufacturers like Cosworth could afford to jump in and get involved and they didn't have to guarantee success to justify the costs involved.

The whole "road relevance" argument is little more than smoke and mirrors. The current cars are not in any way road relevant. The rules were formulated to serve two purposes - one was that the word "hybrid" was a good marketing term for the manufacturers, and the second was that the manufacturers most heavily involved in forcing the rules through knew it would give them a competitive advantage and create huge barriers for others to compete with them.

Other series feature far more road relevant tech and have far fewer issues attracting manufacturers. Formula 1 never was, and shouldn't be, about road relevance, as it was always about building the fastest racing cars possible, which is in no way related to the daily commute. Unfortunately the current rules make it much, much more expensive to build a fast racing car - the all conquering Mercedes from the start of the hybrid era was slower around most tracks than a Minardi on 5% of the budget 10 years earlier for example. They've made up some of that lost pace now of course with ever more advanced aero, but at a cost of billions across all the teams.

This.

LMP is more road relevant IMO, that is reflected a bit as well in seeing the manufacturers going back to the series as well due to the new rules coming in.

As for F1 being road relevant, aside from a few things that have trickled down, overall it really isn't road relevant at all. The idea that Hybrid and a 1.6 ICU will help with marketing is a joke, people watch F1 for entertainment, not because it has a similar engine to the car int he driveway.

Look at the reactions to when the v10s did some show and tell last year, people stopped in their tracks to watch and listen. I must have watched the laps Alonso did about 15 times in one day for that beautiful sound.

As you have pointed out as well, the current regs just double up as marketing for Mercedes. They threatened to leave had it not gone to their satisfaction and the result is the past few years of utter crap on the track, both in entertainment and noise.

Glico Man wrote: »

I'd wonder if the new regulations coming in next season will we see any further interest from Manufacturers or private teams looking to come in.

I remember reading something a year or two ago about Campos Racing trying to get back in. They'd a bid the same year Haas did, with the latter getting the nod. Wonder if Dave Richards and Prodrive still be interested too. More moving chicanes or not, I would like to see more cars on the grid.

The budget cap will certainly make it a bit more of an attractive prospect.

Isn't there a lump sum new teams have to pay to get in?
They would want to be very committed and confident they could start as a strong midfielder eyeing championships with three years you would imagine.

I would disagree that F1 has no road relevance in terms of real world safety equipment. I can't point to any one thing in particular but I'm pretty confident that the safety tech developed after the deaths of Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna and to an extent Jules Bianchi is filtering its way into the cars we drive today. Imagine Halo materials in the survival cell of your cars.

Hijpo wrote: »

Isn't there a lump sum new teams have to pay to get in?
They would want to be very committed and confident they could start as a strong midfielder eyeing championships with three years you would imagine.

It's 200m dollars entry fee to a new team who doesn't buy an existing team. You ll probably get the factory with an existing team so a new team would probably need to get a factory too. Looking at the guts of half a billion as opposed to 300m dollars to get up and running.

They really don't want more than 10 teams and I doubt they will get anyone willing to pay the premium to create a new team.

Jordan 199 wrote: »

As would I, but I want quality over quantity.

My understanding is that this period is the most competitive overall field (front to back) that F1 has ever been. They regularly had teams who failed to make the 107% qualifying time and even had pre qualifying to weed out the really, really slow cars. This weeks pole lap was 90 seconds and the slowest car to qualify this weekend was Mazepin 93.3 which i about 3.6% slower than Max. 107% of pole would be 96.3 seconds.

More cars might be nice to have but not if they dilute the quality.

Get your jabs

https://twitter.com/F1Media/status/1408018571297427457?s=19

AMKC wrote: »

So the FIA now want to slow down pitstops from the Hungarian race in August onwards. How ridiculous is that?
The whole point of an F1 potato is to get the car in and out as quick as possible and with as little time as possible wasted for the driver.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-to-slow-down-formula-1-pitstops-from-hungarian-gp/6604158/


Are the FIA becoming a nanny organisation now or something?

Merc and Lewis are being beaten hands down, do you expect regulations to remain the same ?