Hungary passes new homophobic laws

Annasopra · 20-06-2021 1:14pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Calling hating other people a "culture" doesn't make it right.

Thats the thing. I dont believe this hatred of LGBT people and indeed refugees and migrants could realistically be called Eastern European Culture.

Annasopra · 20-06-2021 1:18pm

Bambi wrote: »

Hatred. Grrr. Angry Hungarians

When you look at the place Western Europe wound up, with kids being fed puberty blockers and women being told that the definition of "woman" is now "human" Hungarians are probably thinking "nip this in the bud".

They've probably thrown the baby out with the bathwater but time will tell.

Yes

Thats what this is. Hatred. It is suggesting that LGBT people are child abusers. It is criminalising discussion that LGBT people exist. This is hatred and persecution. Its worse than Thatchers shameful section 28. We saw that shameful law eventually go into the dustbins of history.

bb1234567 · 20-06-2021 1:50pm

Bambi wrote: »

Hatred. Grrr. Angry Hungarians

When you look at the place Western Europe wound up, with kids being fed puberty blockers and women being told that the definition of "woman" is now "human" Hungarians are probably thinking "nip this in the bud".

They've probably thrown the baby out with the bathwater but time will tell.

:rolleyes:
How many kids do you know on puberty blockers, even one? How many women do you know describe themselves as human rather than woman? And who has told women to think that, any actual authority or are you claiming some hardline lgbt twitter group apparently rule the roost now. You're hysterical beyond belief. 'Look where Western Europe ended up', where? Seems like a great part of the world to live in for the most part, and attracting people from all over the world still as place to live. I wonder if there's more immigrants coming into Western Europe from HUngary, or vice versa? Or are most of us planning an exodus to HUngary now because all these recent changes are just so enticing and great.
Yeh, what Hungary did won't lead to anything good, or any positive change for anyone, it'll only serve to isolate gay people, which is exactly why the bill was proposed, not to help children, it's pretty ****ing transparent.

km991148 · 20-06-2021 2:05pm

Bambi wrote: »

Ole Vic has won three elections on the trot with outright majorities while ruling by fear. That's impressive.

Actually in fairness, it's not just fear. There are also classics like gerrymandering and bribery - huge grants and bonuses to promote "traditional families" (for example - this is great, popular vote winner and shaming couples who are 'non traditional' whatever the f that is).

It's not all shutting down the free press and arresting your enemies!

km991148 · 20-06-2021 2:09pm

bb1234567 wrote: »

. You're hysterical beyond belief. 'Look where Western Europe ended up', where? Seems like a great part of the world to live in for the most part, and attracting people from all over the world still as place to live. I wonder if there's more immigrants coming into Western Europe from HUngary, or vice versa?

Exactly. Covid aside, as far as I can tell anyone who can leave Hungary for good, are.. even to the 'draconian' west of Europe that certain quarters would have you believe.

bb1234567 · 20-06-2021 2:15pm

km991148 wrote: »

Exactly. Covid aside, as far as I can tell anyone who can leave Hungary for good, are.. even to the 'draconian' west of Europe that certain quarters would have you believe.

Yep, sure it's all women, gays and muslims running the show over here. Who wants that, it's all become just a bit too equal for my liking. 'Live and let live' they say so long as those groups keep quiet and have absolutely no say in the political discourse. Then they're 'fine' with their existence ie. can forget about their issues so it doesn't impact their life in any way

km991148 · 20-06-2021 2:23pm

Annasopra wrote: »

Yes

Thats what this is. Hatred. It is suggesting that LGBT people are child abusers. It is criminalising discussion that LGBT people exist. This is hatred and persecution. Its worse than Thatchers shameful section 28. We saw that shameful law eventually go into the dustbins of history.

It's that and more. When you look into it it's written in quite an ambiguous way... So if anyone writes about anything gay related (such as the reporting of the infamous Jozsef Szajer - look him up if you don't know him!) then expect to be charged.

bb1234567 · 20-06-2021 5:20pm

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12020/12328124/stephen-kenny-republic-of-ireland-boss-brands-hungary-fans-who-booed-his-players-taking-a-knee-as-incomprehensible
Wow who could have guessed that this homophobia disguised as child welfare was not a single issue that existed in a vaccuum but just a symptom of growing levels of of intolerance of minorities in wider Hungarian society .Biiiiiiiig shocker . I'm sure Hungary is going great places, and will be a much more cohesive and peaceful society in years to come !

c.p.w.g.w · 20-06-2021 6:06pm

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Hungary is aware of how far things have gone in other countries, they are drawing a line to prevent things from getting out of hand.
I'm expecting other European countries to adopt a similar approach in the next few years.
A good way to avoid countries form become extremely anti-LGBT would be for LGBT to have a more tolerant approach towards non-LGBT

Same thing goes with all this gender stuff too...

I will be slated for saying there are only 2 genders or sexes...but that's what the science says...

If you produce sperm you are male, if you wanna wear a dress and makeup, drive on and do what makes you happy, but it doesn't make you a female

Annasopra · 20-06-2021 6:41pm

bb1234567 wrote: »

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12020/12328124/stephen-kenny-republic-of-ireland-boss-brands-hungary-fans-who-booed-his-players-taking-a-knee-as-incomprehensible
Wow who could have guessed that this homophobia disguised as child welfare was not a single issue that existed in a vaccuum but just a symptom of growing levels of of intolerance of minorities in wider Hungarian society .Biiiiiiiig shocker . I'm sure Hungary is going great places, and will be a much more cohesive and peaceful society in years to come !

Thats the thing. Hungarians will lose out. Budapest is an amazing city but if it id going to continue down this line of of being racist and homophobic then visitors wont want to go there and Hungarians will start to leave in their droves. The current government is simply on a trajectory of hate against all minorities. Its pretty disgusting.

km991148 · 20-06-2021 6:55pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

I will be slated for saying there are only 2 genders or sexes...but that's what the science says...

I don't think you will be slated, but your assertions aren't necessarily based in science. Not when it comes to mixing gender and sex, but that's a while different thread I guess.

km991148 · 20-06-2021 6:55pm

Annasopra wrote: »

Thats the thing. Hungarians will lose out. Budapest is an amazing city but if it id going to continue down this line of of being racist and homophobic then visitors wont want to go there and Hungarians will start to leave in their droves. The current government is simply on a trajectory of hate against all minorities. Its pretty disgusting.

A lot of young Hungarians already have left.

Annasopra · 20-06-2021 7:10pm

km991148 wrote: »

I don't think you will be slated, but your assertions aren't necessarily based in science. Not when it comes to mixing gender and sex, but that's a while different thread I guess.

Nope. Very definitely not based in science

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

gussieg · 20-06-2021 7:18pm

and in threads like this, you see the disturbing opinions of boards.ie , that in this case , seem to be in the majority.
Bear in mind , this is based near dublin castle, near garda hq, masonic attitude to anything outside their blinkered smallminded view of life.
Its depressing for sure .
Very macho , so insecure in their maleness they have to shut down and attack anything that frightens them, ie LGBQT and women.
fully expecting to get expelled

Annasopra · 20-06-2021 7:38pm

gussieg wrote: »

and in threads like this, you see the disturbing opinions of boards.ie , that in this case , seem to be in the majority.
Bear in mind , this is based near dublin castle, near garda hq, masonic attitude to anything outside their blinkered smallminded view of life.
Its depressing for sure .
Very macho , so insecure in their maleness they have to shut down and attack anything that frightens them, ie LGBQT and women.
fully expecting to get expelled

Agreed. It is very disturbing to see some people on this site more or less support the law. It is really a hate charter against LGBT people and yes unfortunately some on here are ok with that.

bb1234567 · 20-06-2021 11:13pm

Annasopra wrote: »

Agreed. It is very disturbing to see some people on this site more or less support the law. It is really a hate charter against LGBT people and yes unfortunately some on here are ok with that.

I think what's even worse than the support is the slimey underhanded insinuations that it is the behaviour of LGBT which led to this happening and that gay people are directly responsible for being treated so poorly because of that. Gaslighting on top of discrimination

Annasopra · 20-06-2021 11:21pm

bb1234567 wrote: »

I think what's even worse than the support is the slimey underhanded insinuations that it is the behaviour of LGBT which led to this happening and that gay people are directly responsible for being treated so poorly because of that. Gaslighting on top of discrimination

I know right. The attitude of some is "well they didnt behave themselves so they deserve this". Agreed. Disgusting attitude.

21-06-2021 6:51pm

Annasopra wrote: »

Im not racist against Eastern Europe. I have Hungarian LGBT friends who are terrified of these hatemongering laws bring introduced.

I'm not racist but...

21-06-2021 6:53pm

Annasopra wrote: »

Yes completely. The toilets arguments and The prison arguments were pretty much 1980s homophobia. And we have Self ID here in Ireland now 6 years and there are pretty much no issues. No toilet attacks. No prison attacks. The trans women in Prisons are not an issue either because they have been segregated. All of the screaming and shouting against trans rights is rehashed homophobia and we have proved here in Ireland its pretty much hysterical nonsense.

Why have they been segregated?

21-06-2021 6:54pm

Hhhhh wrote: »

Why have they been segregated?

Probably need to ask the prison service

slipperyox · 21-06-2021 7:11pm

What some people fail to even realise. Or cannot comprehend.

Is that any law a country makes is right at the time.

There was nothing wrong with slavery in the US many many years ago AT THE TIME, its what the majority signed up to, decent people, even though there was a minority against it. We can certainly look back and say that was terrible, but we have no business judging from today, it was a different time.

Retro visionist history looking back saying that was wrong is immature.

A society makes laws based on the majority, AT THE TIME.

Its when the minority number grows and changes/reverses the law that views ebb and flow.

So to the op, do you respect their laws on this? or just disagree with them?

And I'm on here for adult discussion on your topic.

Annasopra · 21-06-2021 8:02pm

slipperyox wrote: »

What some people fail to even realise. Or cannot comprehend.

Is that any law a country makes is right at the time.

There was nothing wrong with slavery in the US many many years ago AT THE TIME, its what the majority signed up to, decent people, even though there was a minority against it. We can certainly look back and say that was terrible, but we have no business judging from today, it was a different time.

Retro visionist history looking back saying that was wrong is immature.

A society makes laws based on the majority, AT THE TIME.

Its when the minority number grows and changes/reverses the law that views ebb and flow.

So to the op, do you respect their laws on this? or just disagree with them?

And I'm on here for adult discussion on your topic.

Sorry but thats absolute nonsense. There are lots of laws that are completely and utterly wrong at the time. Just because parliaments vote for them does not make them right. Respecting the rule of law does not mean you have to agree with every law introduced.

Heraclius · 21-06-2021 8:04pm

Is there any prospect of the opposition winning the next election in Hungary? If they do is there any prospect of them repealing the homophobic laws put in place by Fidesz?

slipperyox · 21-06-2021 8:20pm

Annasopra wrote: »

Sorry but thats absolute nonsense. There are lots of laws that are completely and utterly wrong at the time. Just because parliaments vote for them does not make them right. Respecting the rule of law does not mean you have to agree with every law introduced.

I'm sorry for you if that's your argument/ response.

If you voted for the politicians, and they made the law, that's called democracy.

You got a problem with democracy too then?

Annasopra · 21-06-2021 8:27pm

slipperyox wrote: »

I'm sorry for you if that's your argument/ response.

If you voted for the politicians, and they made the law, that's called democracy.

You got a problem with democracy too then?

Eh no.

You clearly missed the last line of the post you quoted me on.

Democracy isnt an infallible institution that makes everything that a parliament votes through right or correct. In democracy the people can often have a say in influencing the votes of parliament too. Your argument that just because a parliament votes through something that it is automatically right is frankly a strange and absurd argument.

slipperyox · 21-06-2021 8:36pm

Annasopra wrote: »

Eh no.

You clearly missed the last line of the post you quoted me on.

Democracy isnt an infallible institution that makes everything that a parliament votes through right or correct. In democracy the people can often have a say in influencing the votes of parliament too. Your argument that just because a parliament votes through something that it is automatically right is frankly a strange and absurd argument.

sweet mother of devine mercy, another country passed a law.
Get over it.

or moan about it here..:p

km991148 · 21-06-2021 8:39pm

Heraclius wrote: »

Is there any prospect of the opposition winning the next election in Hungary? If they do is there any prospect of them repealing the homophobic laws put in place by Fidesz?

It's very difficult. The gov have forcibly closed any media companies that report against them, and have heavily subsidised key voting groups.

Annasopra · 21-06-2021 8:40pm

slipperyox wrote: »

sweet mother of devine mercy, another country passed a law.
Get over it.

No. These are discussion boards and people can talk about what they want so theres no need for you to be back seat modding.

Ten of Swords · 21-06-2021 8:44pm

Hhhhh do not post in this thread again.

Everyone else back on topic please. Thread is about the new laws in Hungary, not trans prisoners. A large number of off topic posts have been removed

21-06-2021 8:52pm

Hhhhh wrote: »

I'm not racist but...

Pot meet kettle

...Ghost... · 21-06-2021 11:56pm

Hungary won’t be the last to introduce such laws. It looks to be overkill, but I don’t think children should be taught about LGBTQI+ in school. We have children struggling with Mathematics and English, but it’s ok to take up valuable academic learning time talking about non-binary people and unlimited genders?

It is ironic to see only one side on this thread silenced while discussing the silencing of LGBT teachings in Hungary.

<Snip>

Annasopra wrote: »

No. These are discussion boards and people can talk about what they want so theres no need for you to be back seat modding.

This was once true.

km991148 · 22-06-2021 12:08am

...Ghost... wrote: »

Hungary won’t be the last to introduce such laws. It looks to be overkill, but I don’t think children should be taught about LGBTQI+ in school. We have children struggling with Mathematics and English, but it’s ok to take up valuable academic learning time talking about non-binary people and unlimited genders?

Why on earth would you want to prevent everyone under 18 from learning about LGBT? We only need to look at the fairly recent example of the UK to see that it caused more problems than it solved.

It's not like kids hitting puberty will decide to not be gay just because they can't access any sex education or information in the topic. Instead anything other than straight will be stigmatised.

I'm really interested to know why you think this is a good idea, kids struggling with mathematics or under funded schools is not a reason.

Peregrinus · 22-06-2021 3:05am

...Ghost... wrote: »

Hungary won’t be the last to introduce such laws. It looks to be overkill, but I don’t think children should be taught about LGBTQI+ in school. We have children struggling with Mathematics and English, but it’s ok to take up valuable academic learning time talking about non-binary people and unlimited genders?

Are you suggesting that relationship and sexuality education should be wholly abandoned in favour of more maths and English? Or just that the material should be edited down by removing all the LGBTI+ bits?

km991148 · 22-06-2021 9:05am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Are you suggesting that relationship and sexuality education should be wholly abandoned in favour of more maths and English? Or just that the material should be edited down by removing all the LGBTI+ bits?

It's a very confused sounding post. I think they really wanted to just omit anything Trans from sex education but they also included everything else not straight.

Or did they mean to also exclude all sex education? Maybe we should make all sex a shameful act, go right back to the 50s? That worked for us in the past right?

A couple of thanks on the post too, so would be good to hear more about this.

...Ghost... · 22-06-2021 9:07am

km991148 wrote: »

Why on earth would you want to prevent everyone under 18 from learning about LGBT? We only need to look at the fairly recent example of the UK to see that it caused more problems than it solved.

It's not like kids hitting puberty will decide to not be gay just because they can't access any sex education or information in the topic. Instead anything other than straight will be stigmatised.

I'm really interested to know why you think this is a good idea, kids struggling with mathematics or under funded schools is not a reason.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Are you suggesting that relationship and sexuality education should be wholly abandoned in favour of more maths and English? Or just that the material should be edited down by removing all the LGBTI+ bits?

If it were possible to discuss the topic properly, I would be happy to hash this out with both of you. However, when posts are being snipped or deleted when they are not in the favour of certain people, there really is no point because one cannot openly discuss it. I answered a question about why trans prisoners might be segregated and it was snipped. Although it wasn’t about the legislation passed in Hungary, it was in my opinion on topic because people are arguing that the legislation is anti LGBTQI+. Last I checked, trans prisoners fit into one of those categories. Less bias moderation would be welcome. I’m sure the LGBTQI+ Hungarians would agree with that statement.

listermint · 22-06-2021 9:12am

...Ghost... wrote: »

If it were possible to discuss the topic properly, I would be happy to hash this out with both of you. However, when posts are being snipped or deleted when they are not in the favour of certain people, there really is no point because one cannot openly discuss it. I answered a question about why trans prisoners might be segregated and it was snipped. Although it wasn’t about the legislation passed in Hungary, it was in my opinion on topic because people are arguing that the legislation is anti LGBTQI+. Last I checked, trans prisoners fit into one of those categories. Less bias moderation would be welcome. I’m sure the LGBTQI+ Hungarians would agree with that statement.

Is this the 'im being silenced' response as often used by people we never hear from like Nigel Farage and Piers Morgan . Silenced so much people never see them on their TV screens , papers, internet and radio

LLMMLL · 22-06-2021 9:12am

What this thread makes blindingly obvious is that there are plenty of people who “have gay friends” “have no issues with gay people” etc. But think it’s perfectly normal for children to have sex education around straight issues but something mysteriously wrong with children hearing about gay issues.

Some people are not as comfortable with gay people as they think they are.

km991148 · 22-06-2021 9:17am

...Ghost... wrote: »

If it were possible to discuss the topic properly, I would be happy to hash this out with both of you. However, when posts are being snipped or deleted when they are not in the favour of certain people, there really is no point because one cannot openly discuss it. I answered a question about why trans prisoners might be segregated and it was snipped. Although it wasn’t about the legislation passed in Hungary, it was in my opinion on topic because people are arguing that the legislation is anti LGBTQI+. Last I checked, trans prisoners fit into one of those categories. Less bias moderation would be welcome. I’m sure the LGBTQI+ Hungarians would agree with that statement.

I think you can talk about why you think LGBTQI+ should be banned from being discussed with under 18s without talking about trans prisoners being segregated.

Let's start with these basic questions:

Do you want to ban all LGBTQI+?
Do you want to ban the T only?
Do you want to ban the B only?
Do you want to ban all sex education and discussion?

Peregrinus · 22-06-2021 9:18am

...Ghost... wrote: »

If it were possible to discuss the topic properly, I would be happy to hash this out with both of you. However, when posts are being snipped or deleted when they are not in the favour of certain people, there really is no point because one cannot openly discuss it. I answered a question about why trans prisoners might be segregated and it was snipped. Although it wasn’t about the legislation passed in Hungary, it was in my opinion on topic because people are arguing that the legislation is anti LGBTQI+. Last I checked, trans prisoners fit into one of those categories. Less bias moderation would be welcome. I’m sure the LGBTQI+ Hungarians would agree with that statement.

But the issue of LGBTQI+ relationship education is squarely within the topic of this thread, and your post on that point to which I replied has not been snipped or deleted. So I think you can safely carry on discussing it.

A professed reluctance to discuss it on the grounds of anticipated censorship of your views when, in fact, your views on the topic are not being censored is probably going to create an impression which is not the one you want to create. So you might be wise to at least give it a lash.

Kaybaykwah · 22-06-2021 9:21am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Are you suggesting that relationship and sexuality education should be wholly abandoned in favour of more maths and English? Or just that the material should be edited down by removing all the LGBTI+ bits?

I'd tell the kids: "Fine, when you all get your A's in Math, we'll do sex ed.

Seriously, in an advanced country, you would include LGBTI bits in a discussion about sex in primary school. Not to mention it implies it shouldn't exist. I fail to see why bringing up certain topics automatically promotes a lifestyle over another. Everybody you knew growing up didn't become either a priest or a hairdesser.

Ten of Swords · 22-06-2021 9:57am

...Ghost... wrote: »

If it were possible to discuss the topic properly, I would be happy to hash this out with both of you. However, when posts are being snipped or deleted when they are not in the favour of certain people, there really is no point because one cannot openly discuss it. I answered a question about why trans prisoners might be segregated and it was snipped. Although it wasn’t about the legislation passed in Hungary, it was in my opinion on topic because people are arguing that the legislation is anti LGBTQI+. Last I checked, trans prisoners fit into one of those categories. Less bias moderation would be welcome. I’m sure the LGBTQI+ Hungarians would agree with that statement.

If you have an issue with how this thread, or forum, is being moderated I am happy to discuss this with you via PM.

I will address the missing posts issue on thread now as it's becoming a common theme on this thread - I dont care what 'side' of the debate anyone is on, this forum has a very clear charter and posts that breach it will be carded, deleted or snipped as appropriate.

A large number off topic posts have been deleted, examples include a particular poster soapboxing their views on gender identity in a way that had no relevance to the topic at hand or a tangent about transgender prisoners were deleted because they simply aren't relevant to this discussion.

Posts that continue to mention these deleted posts are also being deleted or snipped and will continue to be (Ghost, this is the reason your post was snipped. That reason is visible if you're viewing the desktop site, I don't believe it's visible if you're viewing the touch site. You can save the mental gymnastics re arguing that trans prisoners is on topic - it's not, end of)

A reminder for all posters - any further discussion of mod actions on thread will result in a threadban at a minimum.

Read the forum charter. Thanks

...Ghost... · 22-06-2021 10:25am

Peregrinus wrote: »

But the issue of LGBTQI+ relationship education is squarely within the topic of this thread, and your post on that point to which I replied has not been snipped or deleted. So I think you can safely carry on discussing it.

A professed reluctance to discuss it on the grounds of anticipated censorship of your views when, in fact, your views on the topic are not being censored is probably going to create an impression which is not the one you want to create. So you might be wise to at least give it a lash.

I only see one side of the "off-topic" posts being snipped or deleted. It's not worth my time debating it if my comments can just be removed. If an echo chamber is what people want, that's fine. I'm not suggesting that's what you want Peregrinus, but it's clear that on this thread, only certain opinions are tolerated by some.

My main point is that children don't need to be taught about LGBTQI+ in school, especially not in primary school. Sex ed as far as I recall is a half school day in 6th class and is very basic. If they wanted to add to the half day and teach children that not all sexual intimacy is done for procreation and that some people are attracted to the same gender, or both genders.....touching onto same-sex couples, I don't have an issue with that either. However, if you start getting into endless genders and non-binary and transgender discussions, I think it's way beyond the scope of what needs to be taught to our children.

At the very least, parents should be given a choice as to what is being taught to their children outside of the academic syllabus.

@km991148, I haven't been disrespectful to you. I'd appreciate you cut out your condescending attitude and veiled implication that I am anti-(insert letter or symbol). I realise that I have posted in a forum where my views are not as welcome as the prevailing views in here, but are my opinions and views less important?

22-06-2021 10:35am

...Ghost... wrote: »

I only see one side of the "off-topic" posts being snipped or deleted. It's not worth my time debating it if my comments can just be removed. If an echo chamber is what people want, that's fine. I'm not suggesting that's what you want Peregrinus, but it's clear that on this thread, only certain opinions are tolerated by some.

My main point is that children don't need to be taught about LGBTQI+ in school, especially not in primary school. Sex ed as far as I recall is a half school day in 6th class and is very basic. If they wanted to add to the half day and teach children that not all sexual intimacy is done for procreation and that some people are attracted to the same gender, or both genders.....touching onto same-sex couples, I don't have an issue with that either. However, if you start getting into endless genders and non-binary and transgender discussions, I think it's way beyond the scope of what needs to be taught to our children.

At the very least, parents should be given a choice as to what is being taught to their children outside of the academic syllabus.

@km991148, I haven't been disrespectful to you. I'd appreciate you cut out your condescending attitude and veiled implication that I am anti-(insert letter or symbol). I realise that I have posted in a forum where my views are not as welcome as the prevailing views in here, but are my opinions and views less important?

Your views are even more important.

When debating issues, the outsider is the one who deserves more time to air their views. That's the whole point of debate.

I, like you, voluntarily departed contributing to this thread for precisely the reason you cite: the echochamber effect backed up by a very real threat of censorship. Opposing views are absolutely not welcome here. If anything, you become the enemy.

I agree with your views, by the way, even though I am a member of the LGBT community myself. What you invariably find that the LGBT "community" is only a community when voiced by those who claim a uniformity of opinion.

Those within the community, who are not represented in the media, that share a different view are invariably side-lined, ostracized, censored, and impugned with the worst possible motives - when all we do is share a different opinion.

It's not just on the matter of children's education either.

Peregrinus · 22-06-2021 10:40am

...Ghost... wrote: »

I only see one side of the "off-topic" posts being snipped or deleted. It's not worth my time debating it if my comments can just be removed. If an echo chamber is what people want, that's fine. I'm not suggesting that's what you want Peregrinus, but it's clear that on this thread, only certain opinions are tolerated by some.

If on-topic posts are not being snipped or deleted, your concerns about how off-topic posts are handled needn't prevent you from engaging in on-topic discussion.

...Ghost... wrote: »

My main point is that children don't need to be taught about LGBTQI+ in school, especially not in primary school. Sex ed as far as I recall is a half school day in 6th class and is very basic. If they wanted to add to the half day and teach children that not all sexual intimacy is done for procreation and that some people are attracted to the same gender, or both genders.....touching onto same-sex couples, I don't have an issue with that either. However, if you start getting into endless genders and non-binary and transgender discussions, I think it's way beyond the scope of what needs to be taught to our children.

If sex ed really is half a day in sixth class then, whatever is causing underperformance in maths and English in primary schools, it's not likely to be sex ed. And making reference to homosexuality and gender identity in that half-day isn't going to affect maths and English scores. (But it might mean quite a lot to year 6 kids who are wondering about their own sexual orientation or experiencing some kind of discomfort with their assigned gender identity.)

And the Hungarian ban is certainly not confined to primary schools. (Neither was the former UK ban.)

...Ghost... wrote: »

At the very least, parents should be given a choice as to what is being taught to their children outside of the academic syllabus.

RSE is part of the syllabus in Irish schools.

(But parents can withdraw their children from RSE, or from the sensitive aspects of it.)

riffmongous · 22-06-2021 10:44am

But who has said any education would need to involve unlimited genders? There is no subject taught in exhaustive detail, or not taught because of this

km991148 · 22-06-2021 10:45am

...Ghost... wrote: »

@km991148, I haven't been disrespectful to you. I'd appreciate you cut out your condescending attitude and veiled implication that I am anti-(insert letter or symbol). I realise that I have posted in a forum where my views are not as welcome as the prevailing views in here, but are my opinions and views less important?

No - please don't take it that way - but your post came across in a way that made it difficult to understand and I was looking for further understanding of your viewpoint. I didn't accuse you of homophobia, biphobia or any other such thing. But I had to read your post a few times and then you stopped responding based on "censorship".

Apologies for the condescending tone, I just wanted clarification.

The law in Hungary stops all education and discussion of pretty much anything non straight as well as being written in such an ambiguous way that anyone publishing articles on the subject could also be prosecuted (not to mention the fact the laws were tacked onto ant paedophilia laws).

On clarification, I don't think you support such a law, more or less that you are against discussing the possibility of certain trans topics with primary school children. That's your opinion and I am not wanting to shut down conversation.

I don't often come to this forum, but the subject got my attention. I think its a very far reaching and dangerous law and will only cause more problems down the line.

...Ghost... · 22-06-2021 12:17pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

If on-topic posts are not being snipped or deleted, your concerns about how off-topic posts are handled needn't prevent you from engaging in on-topic discussion.

The snipped part of my post was directly related to the discussion. I, like bubblypop provided an answer to a question asked by a poster, except my answer went beyond the "ask the prison service" to explain why it's safer to segregate transgender prisoners. Granted, it was after the mod topic warning, but when you hit reply, you skip all posts after the one you are replying to.

The topic being directly related to the Hungarian legislation should not have been censored. There are more than a few genuinely off-topic posts that haven't been deleted/snipped and it appears to be biased from where I stand. If one is rigidly confined to within the Hungarian legislation, then the conversation cannot be properly exercised.

Peregrinus wrote: »

If sex ed really is half a day in sixth class then, whatever is causing underperformance in maths and English in primary schools, it's not likely to be sex ed. And making reference to homosexuality and gender identity in that half-day isn't going to affect maths and English scores. (But it might mean quite a lot to year 6 kids who are wondering about their own sexual orientation or experiencing some kind of discomfort with their assigned gender identity.)

And the Hungarian ban is certainly not confined to primary schools. (Neither was the former UK ban.)

If limited to a half-day, i'm sure maths and English would take a minimal hit. But it won't stop with a half day for 12 year-old. It becomes a couple of classes per week in post primary. Children with traditional views who believe that there are 2 genders are then accused of bigotry and intolerance. I've personally had to deal with a SPHE Teacher who labelled anyone who did not accept that men can have babies as being an anti-LGBT bigot. So, if a 13 year old won't conform to the teachings of a SPHE teacher with certain views, the pupil is a hateful anti-LGBT bigot. This is the stuff Hungary is going to prevent. Is it too far, I think so. There should be room for all views, but nobodies views should be forced on anyone else.

Peregrinus wrote: »

RSE is part of the syllabus in Irish schools.

(But parents can withdraw their children from RSE, or from the sensitive aspects of it.)

So long as I know what is to be taught and I have the right to withdraw my children from certain classes, that's fine with me. The problem is my daughters school (or the SPHE teacher) is extremely vague and deceiving of what is to be taught. If there was a balance in the class, that would be fine. However, from what I hear, there is no balance and i'm not the only parent who has had to complain about it.

Just look at the instances where Schools had invited speakers on social issues and boys were humiliated by the speaker just because they were boys. I found the article here => https://7news.com.au/news/melbourne/students-shamed-in-melbourne-high-school-for-being-white-christian-privileged-males-c-2681609

A female youth worker did this to school children and it's not an isolated case. When personal bias is introduced to the syllabus, this is what we will see time and again. It's not so easy to politicise maths and English.

km991148 wrote: »

No - please don't take it that way - but your post came across in a way that made it difficult to understand and I was looking for further understanding of your viewpoint. I didn't accuse you of homophobia, biphobia or any other such thing. But I had to read your post a few times and then you stopped responding based on "censorship".

Apologies for the condescending tone, I just wanted clarification.

I appreciate the apology. It's just difficult to have a discussion when your side of context is trimmed by bias moderation. That's my honestly held view.

km991148 · 22-06-2021 12:37pm

...Ghost... wrote: »

I appreciate the apology. It's just difficult to have a discussion when your side of context is trimmed by bias moderation. That's my honestly held view.

Well I don't think we did discuss anything here that wasn't allowed? - you made a sweeping statement that seemed to support nothing other than straight sexual interactions or sex education should be supported (or maybe you meant no sex Education at all?).

I think its possible to discuss those views without fear of being moderated out of it.

Ten of Swords · 22-06-2021 12:45pm

...Ghost... do not post in this thread again

You are taking the piss with your last post, honestly. You have ignored how many mod warnings with that post?

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Thread is about the new laws in Hungary, not trans prisoners. A large number of off topic posts have been removed

...Ghost... wrote: »

The snipped part of my post was directly related to the discussion. I, like bubblypop provided an answer to a question asked by a poster, except my answer went beyond the "ask the prison service" to explain why it's safer to segregate transgender prisoners.

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Posts that continue to mention these deleted posts are also being deleted or snipped and will continue to be (Ghost, this is the reason your post was snipped. That reason is visible if you're viewing the desktop site, I don't believe it's visible if you're viewing the touch site. You can save the mental gymnastics re arguing that trans prisoners is on topic - it's not, end of)

...Ghost... wrote: »

The topic being directly related to the Hungarian legislation should not have been censored

Ten of Swords wrote: »

A reminder for all posters - any further discussion of mod actions on thread will result in a threadban at a minimum.

...Ghost... wrote: »

It's just difficult to have a discussion when your side of context is trimmed by bias moderation.

Ten of Swords wrote: »

If you have an issue with how this thread, or forum, is being moderated I am happy to discuss this with you via PM.

Haven't received any PM so I can assume that doing what the mod warning specifically told everyone not to do was the way you intended to make your concerns known.

Hungary passes new homophobic laws

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