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Hungary passes new homophobic laws

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    #62
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,712 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Your comment is racist against Polish and other Eastern cultures

    You literally do not understand what the term racist means.


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    #63
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Hungary is aware of how far things have gone in other countries, they are drawing a line to prevent things from getting out of hand.
    I'm expecting other European countries to adopt a similar approach in the next few years.
    A good way to avoid countries form become extremely anti-LGBT would be for LGBT to have a more tolerant approach towards non-LGBT

    Nothing has "gone too far" in other countries other people that dont like LGBTQ people trying to whip up anti LGBTQ sentiment by claiming things are "gone too far".
    Im willing to bet 99.99% of non LGBTQ people have not be affected in any way in their daily lives by anything brought in to make things more inclusive.

    The people I've come across that moan about these things will turn out to be people who listen to the likes of Jordan Peterson telling them that as straight white men they are under attack from women and LGBTQ people. Its an industry getting rich off telling the majority they are being oppressed.

    People thinking they are being so original with with their anti trans stuff dont even realise they are a literal copy of the anti gay stuff from the 80's. Most of it is the exact same arguements just being reused. Unfortunately, like every section of society, there are members of the LGB community buying in to it too, not even realising that they would have had the same things said about them in the past.

    Some countries are just running a few decades behind in hating different groups. Just like everyone else, theyll eventually move on to the next group to hate. If theres one thing religious groups love to do, its finding people to hate.


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    #64
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,495 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Your comment is racist against Polish and other Eastern cultures

    No it isn't mic. Watch me get a ban or warning like you did for my racist behaviour like you did. Probably just more pro LGBT nonsense protecting me if I don't get the ban . And if we're scrutinising posts in such a pc way then it's pretty shocking to see you claim your opinion is not prejudicial when you believe the aggressive government treatment of all LGBT persons and related issue is appropriate response based on some irrelevant comments made by select members of the community on another continent


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    #65
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,669 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Theboinkmaster wrote: »
    I’m all for live and let live - but some countries (like Canada I think) making laws forcing people to address others by their chosen pronoun is going too far.

    If you pretend for a second that no-one is transgender or intersex, this is a law that says you are not allowed to address a woman as 'sir'.

    Arguing against this doesn't seem to far, to me, from arguing that you should be allowed to call anyone by names of your choosing, rather than their own name. Should I call you The Oink Miser if I feel like it?


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    #66
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Das Reich wrote: »
    Those people are so racist against Eastern Europe. Not the first time here I saw some users talking bad about it.

    You literally named yourself after a group that tried to exterminate Eastern Europeans

    Another bull**** law from a country that's sending itself down the path of 1930s central Europe suppressing any possible form of dissent, all so Orban can make himself leader for life.


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    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »

    People thinking they are being so original with with their anti trans stuff dont even realise they are a literal copy of the anti gay stuff from the 80's. Most of it is the exact same arguements just being reused. Unfortunately, like every section of society, there are members of the LGB community buying in to it too, not even realising that they would have had the same things said about them in the past.

    Some countries are just running a few decades behind in hating different groups. Just like everyone else, theyll eventually move on to the next group to hate. If theres one thing religious groups love to do, its finding people to hate.

    A few points of note:

    - many trans women and LGBT people agree with my claims. Blaire White and Rose of Dawn are two prominent examples.

    - nobody hates trans people. We simply believe that biology and objectivity matters and that should not be sidelined in favour of self-identification and emotion.

    - this is not comparable to the 80s. Nobody is arguing that laws should exist banning the existence of trans people. Being gay is objectively true, being astralgender or agendered is a social construction.

    - many of us believe that none of the above should be taught to children. Teaching children that alternatives other than he/she exist is an abomination. We cannot butcher the English language based on self-identification as opposed to biological reality.


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    #68
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    A few points of note:

    - many trans women and LGBT people agree with my claims. Blaire White and Rose of Dawn are two prominent examples.

    - nobody hates trans people. We simply believe that biology and objectivity matters and that should not be sidelined in favour of self-identification and emotion.

    - this is not comparable to the 80s. Nobody is arguing that laws should exist banning the existence of trans people. Being gay is objectively true, being astralgender or agendered is a social construction.

    - many of us believe that none of the above should be taught to children.

    You are supporting a law that bans the existence of trans people as far as anyone u18


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    #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    riffmongous wrote: »
    You are supporting a law that bans the existence of trans people as far as anyone u18

    I've repeatedly stated that I do not support the Hungarian legislation.

    But that I do support legislation in principle that controls what is taught to children re: self-identification, gender identity, grammar etc.


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    #70
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    Western LGBT has lost all perspective. I'm speaking moreso of the activists and self-proclaimed spokespeople of the community, including Stonewall but far from limited to them.

    Discussions of whether boy or girl should be used in schools, about a multiplicity of self-identified genders and so on -- is a massive distraction from what they really should be doing.

    I can think of countless examples.

    - highlighting cases of LGBT abuse in other countries, often Muslim countries.
    - offering dialogue between those of faith and those within the LGBT community.
    - raising awareness of sexual health matters within the community.

    You get the idea. These are productive and pragmatic paths to take.

    But this ridiculous sideshow of focussing on the use of language and self-identification does nothing more than alienate a previously LGBT-allied population. These are retrograde, alienating steps - and serve to reverse any progressive action over the past 20 years.

    It's almost as if they have too much power of equality and aren't quite sure what to do with it - so it becomes about channelling that power down any path, rather than be seen to do nothing at all.

    Ideological puritanism is always dangerous.

    The fact that you have to focus so much time and energy to show how someone in stonewall publicly airing some thought they had is bringing down the cause is proof of it being a complete non issue.

    This is like the people who comment on RTE articles about something that happened in america on twitter saying "what about this thing thats happening in Ireland, like RTE only cover 1 story and everything else is ignored, whereas if they just clicked the RTE twitter feed the'd see many things covered.

    It's exactly the sort of nonsense anti LGBTQ people grab on to and run with endlessly to try to prove "things have gone too far" .If every idea floated by politicians was enacted , the world really would be in the ****ter.


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    #71
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    A few points of note:

    - many trans women and LGBT people agree with my claims. Blaire White and Rose of Dawn are two prominent examples.
    .

    Many more dont.....


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    #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    eskimohunt wrote: »

    It's almost as if they have too much power of equality and aren't quite sure what to do with it - so it becomes about channelling that power down any path, rather than be seen to do nothing at all.

    Ideological puritanism is always dangerous.

    Yes it is. I think the concepts of totem and taboo are useful rubrics when it comes to untangling the social effects of rights issues: people who believe in equality of esteem and would never discriminate against a gay person, might wonder why the establishment bangs on about sexuality all the time, why Garda cars have pride flags etc. They are reacting against the erection (har har) of a totem. Totems are a pain the arse to a subset of the population, they demand compliance (and they go hand-in-hand with taboos).



    And forwards and backwards we go, the only constant being that we erect totems and knock them down. As another poster said, be decent to everyone, regardless of details of appearance, background, etc.


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    #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    The fact that you have to focus so much time and energy to show how someone in stonewall publicly airing some thought they had is bringing down the cause is proof of it being a complete non issue.

    This is like the people who comment on RTE articles about something that happened in america on twitter saying "what about this thing thats happening in Ireland, like RTE only cover 1 story and everything else is ignored, whereas if they just clicked the RTE twitter feed the'd see many things covered.

    It's exactly the sort of nonsense anti LGBTQ people grab on to and run with endlessly to try to prove "things have gone too far" .If every idea floated by politicians was enacted , the world really would be in the ****ter.

    Not true.

    I gave the Stonewall example only because it was the most recent example of nonsensical policy I could think of.

    There are thousands more. This stuff is endless, and makes the LGBT community look ridiculous and like a laughing stock.

    The other day a train company in the UK had to change "Ladies and Gentleman, boys and girls" at the start of some announcement because apparently a non-binary person was offended and issued a complaint of discrimination.

    That again, is ridiculous.

    It isn't two examples. There are quite literally thousands of examples raining down on the population over the past many years.

    You make light of the matter, as if it's a small thing here or there. But that's to mislead the population reading this thread.

    And the spread of this self-identification ideology into schools is, as I said, a pedagogic nightmare.
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Many more dont.....

    And...?

    What sort of point is that.

    The point is that let's not assume this is a one way argument.

    If things were as "abusive" as the 1980s, you would not see so many trans people make the same claims as myself.

    The problem is that the loudest voices are trying to control the debate and dictate the terms to everyone else.


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    #74
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    eskimohunt wrote: »

    - nobody hates trans people    . We simply believe that biology and objectivity matters and that should not be sidelined in favour of self-identification and emotion.

    Yes, they do. Just like many people hate gay people and plenty of other groups of people.

    eskimohunt wrote: »
    - this is not comparable to the 80s. Nobody is arguing that laws should exist banning the existence of trans people. Being gay is objectively true, being astralgender or agendered is a social construction.

    See, again, youre having to pick tiny, tiny minority examples that most Trans people have probably never heard of , never mind anyone else and which will never affect them to try show how "things are going to far.

    and you say "being gay is objectively true" but there are plenty of people that will argue its not. It doesnt make them right.
    eskimohunt wrote: »
    - many of us believe that none of the above should be taught to children. Teaching children that alternatives other than he/she exist is an abomination. We cannot butcher the English language based on self-identification as opposed to biological reality.

    Thats your opinion. Again, just like many opinions people would have of you based on you being gay. But it wouldnt make them right and youd disagree with them because it would be opposite to your opinion.

    The English language is hugely different to at various points in the past. It's constantly changing and youre really clutching at straws with that one.


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    #75
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    eskimohunt wrote: »



    What sort of point is that..

    If "this trans person agrees with me" is a valid point why is "these ones dont" not also?


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    #76
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »

    See, again, youre having to pick tiny, tiny minority examples that most Trans people have probably never heard of , never mind anyone else and which will never affect them to try show how "things are going to far.

    Do you think children should be taught about astralgender or not?
    Astralgender is a xenogender that feels connected to space, stars and the universe. Similar identities include stargender, galaxxin, and genderspace.

    To me, the above is a nonsense. In my personal opinion, it's an attempt by a human being to make themselves feel special by attaching a label to their forehead. Forcing people to then apply different pronouns is merely an exercise in power control.

    I simply do not believe children should be taught anything to do with this whatsoever.

    It has nothing to do with sexuality and it has nothing to do with biological men stating they are women.


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    #77
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,897 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Das Reich wrote: »
    Those people are so racist against Eastern Europe. Not the first time here I saw some users talking bad about it.

    Im not racist against Eastern Europe. I have Hungarian LGBT friends who are terrified of these hatemongering laws bring introduced.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #78
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,712 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    If "this trans person agrees with me" is a valid point why is "these ones dont" not also?

    You will find he uses that 'many people' argument often with zero quantification to back up said argument.

    Additionally seems to back laws that would target them specifically in school setting growing up resulting in self hatred, depression and marginalisation.

    I do find it difficult to get inside that mind set tbh.


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    #79
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Do you think children should be taught about astralgender or not?



    To me, the above is a nonsense. In my personal opinion, it's an attempt by a human being to make themselves feel special by attaching a label to their forehead. Forcing people to then apply different pronouns is merely an exercise in power control.

    I simply do not believe children should be taught anything to do with this whatsoever.

    It has nothing to do with sexuality and it has nothing to do with biological men stating they are women.

    Where is astralgender being taught?


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    #80
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,897 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Hungary is aware of how far things have gone in other countries, they are drawing a line to prevent things from getting out of hand.
    I'm expecting other European countries to adopt a similar approach in the next few years.
    A good way to avoid countries form become extremely anti-LGBT would be for LGBT to have a more tolerant approach towards non-LGBT

    Nah. LGBT people should never be tolerant of hatred and and persecution of LGBT people.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #81
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    listermint wrote: »
    You will find he uses that 'many people' argument often with zero quantification to back up said argument.

    Additionally seems to back laws that would target them specifically in school setting growing up resulting in self hatred, depression and marginalisation.

    I do find it difficult to get inside that mind set tbh.

    Blaire White is a YouTuber who focusses on trans issues.

    She is a trans woman herself, and has amassed almost 1 million subscribers.

    Rose of Dawn is also another trans woman, who has amassed 50,000 subscribers - not as high, but certainly not insignificant. Again her channel focusses on trans issues.

    Both of these trans women, with over 1 million followers, agree with me.

    That, indeed, is many people.

    And that's just two prominent examples. There are many more.


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    #82
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,897 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Your comment is racist against Polish and other Eastern cultures

    No. Highlighting that the Polish government are trying to mysogynystically push anti womens rights agendas is not racist.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Where is astralgender being taught?

    Please do not dodge my question with a question.
    eskimohunt wrote: »
    Do you think children should be taught about astralgender or not?

    To me, the above is a nonsense. In my personal opinion, it's an attempt by a human being to make themselves feel special by attaching a label to their forehead. Forcing people to then apply different pronouns is merely an exercise in power control.
    Astralgender is a xenogender that feels connected to space, stars and the universe. Similar identities include stargender, galaxxin, and genderspace.
    Neutrois is a non-binary gender identity which is often associated with a "neutral" or "null" gender.

    School is hard enough for children. For God's sake, leave them alone and not have to be exposed to this ideological nonsense that has nothing whatsoever to do with sexuality or transmen/women.

    This. has. gone. too. far.


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    #84
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,669 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Hungary is aware of how far things have gone in other countries, they are drawing a line to prevent things from getting out of hand.
    I'm expecting other European countries to adopt a similar approach in the next few years.
    A good way to avoid countries form become extremely anti-LGBT would be for LGBT to have a more tolerant approach towards non-LGBT

    Could you give a few examples of things that are out of hand in other countries?


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    #85
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    No it isn't mic. Watch me get a ban or warning like you did for my racist behaviour like you did. Probably just more pro LGBT nonsense protecting me if I don't get the ban . And if we're scrutinising posts in such a pc way then it's pretty shocking to see you claim your opinion is not prejudicial when you believe the aggressive government treatment of all LGBT persons and related issue is appropriate response based on some irrelevant comments made by select members of the community on another continent


    Making generalizations about the Eastern culture is a form of racism, it doesn't matter whether you are or aren't going to get banned for saying it.


    Plenty of Polish and eastern people are proud of their culture and feel strong about it.


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    #86
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,897 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Nothing has "gone too far" in other countries other people that dont like LGBTQ people trying to whip up anti LGBTQ sentiment by claiming things are "gone too far".
    Im willing to bet 99.99% of non LGBTQ people have not be affected in any way in their daily lives by anything brought in to make things more inclusive.

    The people I've come across that moan about these things will turn out to be people who listen to the likes of Jordan Peterson telling them that as straight white men they are under attack from women and LGBTQ people. Its an industry getting rich off telling the majority they are being oppressed.

    People thinking they are being so original with with their anti trans stuff dont even realise they are a literal copy of the anti gay stuff from the 80's. Most of it is the exact same arguements just being reused. Unfortunately, like every section of society, there are members of the LGB community buying in to it too, not even realising that they would have had the same things said about them in the past.

    Some countries are just running a few decades behind in hating different groups. Just like everyone else, theyll eventually move on to the next group to hate. If theres one thing religious groups love to do, its finding people to hate.

    Yes completely. The toilets arguments and The prison arguments were pretty much 1980s homophobia. And we have Self ID here in Ireland now 6 years and there are pretty much no issues. No toilet attacks. No prison attacks. The trans women in Prisons are not an issue either because they have been segregated. All of the screaming and shouting against trans rights is rehashed homophobia and we have proved here in Ireland its pretty much hysterical nonsense.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #87
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,669 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I'm referring to this


    "Stonewall recently came out and argued that the terms "boys" and "girls" should be dropped in schools. Instead, the word "learner" is recommended."


    The general opinion is that the terms boys and girls should not be dropped, LGBT is pushing for something that is only going to make them even more unpopular

    'Boys and girls' is a bit weird. Are you allowing them to be called 'children'?


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    #88
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Please do not dodge my question with a question.

    What question?

    You seem very concerned about the teaching of sexual issues because of this astralgender stuff which nobody has ever proposed be taught. In fact you are the only one who has ever mentioned it in this site.

    Should we stop teaching geography because some people might claim the earth is shaped like a cube?

    You can pull any old nonsense out of your hat and try and muddy the waters with it. Nobody is going to fall for it so not sure why you’re bothering.


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    #89
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    McGaggs wrote: »
    Could you give a few examples of things that are out of hand in other countries?


    The US is pushing for the elimination of masculine and feminine words such as Mother/Father, Son/Daughter and so on.
    If i'm not mistaken this has already been implemented inside the congress.


    This is the stuff that puts people off



    I expect more European countries to react against LGBT


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    #90
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    McGaggs wrote: »
    'Boys and girls' is a bit weird


    It isn't.


    It's perfeclty correct English language


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    #91
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,669 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    - many of us believe that none of the above should be taught to children. Teaching children that alternatives other than he/she exist is an abomination. We cannot butcher the English language based on self-identification as opposed to biological reality.

    https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/they

    What about children born with both male and female sex organs?


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