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Hungary passes new homophobic laws

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 30,629 ✭✭✭✭ listermint


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    Nobody suggested sex education should be banned. Not even me.

    But do you believe 5-year olds should be taught about self-identification, astralgenderism, and thousands of other gender identifications?

    I think 5 year olds should be thought respect for others. And not to be disrespectful to others not look down on others. I have young children that will be entering school and they will be thought to treat others with the same respect they would expect back .

    If teaching them that there are people out there different or the same as them means gender studies then so be it. I'd rather my children live a happy long life than a suicidal depressed existence where they thing they are wrong and broken.

    Anyone who things someone's sexual identity can be thought by a primary school lesson is a moron.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭ bb1234567


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    Nobody suggested sex education should be banned. Not even me.

    But do you believe 5-year olds should be taught about self-identification, astralgenderism, and thousands of other gender identifications?

    Who's talking about 5 year olds?Directing the discussion specifically around people that young is a strawman. The Hungarian law concerns all pupils under 18, many of whom will be going through puberty and many of whom will now be cruelly deprived of the valuable information needed at a crucial juncture in their development.

    I don't know much about how children as young as 5 would react to teachings on gender, or whatever, but I don't think knee jerk reactions to the proposition are the way to go about it either. If that understanding is shown to improve or help social and psycoholical development of children that young, then yeh it could be taught in schools. I'd like to read into it more myself, I'm sure many of the people spouting strong negative opinions on it aren't all too read up on the specifics of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,629 ✭✭✭✭ listermint


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    Who's talking about 5 year olds?Directing the discussion specifically around people that young is a strawman. The Hungarian law concerns all pupils under 18, many of whom will be going through puberty and many of whom will now be cruelly deprived of the valuable information needed at a crucial juncture in their development.

    Strawman arguments and hyperbole are what you'll find some folks can only rely on when basic sensible discussion is warranted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭ eskimohunt


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    Who's talking about 5 year olds?Directing the discussion specifically around people that young is a strawman. The Hungarian law concerns all pupils under 18, many of whom will be going through puberty and many of whom will now be cruelly deprived of the valuable information needed at a crucial juncture in their development.

    That's the debate though.

    Many people argue that it should be as young as 5-years, or younger.

    Others argue it should be 12-years or so, secondary school level.


    "Civil rights used to be about treating everyone the same. But today some people are so used to special treatment that equal treatment is considered to be discrimination" - Thomas Sowell



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,629 ✭✭✭✭ listermint


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    That's the debate though.

    Many people argue that it should be as young as 5-years, or younger.

    Others argue it should be 12-years or so, secondary school level.

    Many people who? Is this enda Kenny met folks in the pub that told him stuff or is it the casual trump stuff where he fabricates what 'people' have said to him. Good people great people...

    Let's just deal with the facts here and the law as it's written . Under 18. The end.


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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,154 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Ten of Swords


    It's fairly clear that people either haven't read the specifics of the law, understand the content and consequences or even how the Fidesz government passed the legislation

    This item about not promoting LGBT content to under 18s was tagged onto a child protection bill which legislates much harsher penalties for those convicted of child sex offenses and also legislates a searchable register for sex offenders. As a result of this, the law conflates LGBT with such offenses and also ensures that parliament won't vote against it as it could be spun that they were voting against the establishment of a searchable sex offender register etc. A very underhanded tactic to pass their legislation. It passed 157-1

    Some of the practicalities of the legislation with regards to LGBT people are;
    The Hungarian legislation outlaws sharing information with under-18s that the government considers to be promoting homosexuality or gender change.

    “There are contents which children under a certain age can misunderstand and which may have a detrimental effect on their development at the given age, or which children simply cannot process, and which could therefore confuse their developing moral values or their image of themselves or the world,” said a Hungarian government spokesperson.

    The law also means only individuals and organisations listed in an official register can carry out sex education classes in schools, a measure targeting “organisations with dubious professional background … often established for the representation of specific sexual orientations”, the government spokesperson said.

    Companies and large organisations will also be banned from running adverts in solidarity with gay people, if they are deemed to target under-18s. In 2019, a Coca-Cola ad campaign featuring smiling gay couples and anti-discrimination slogans prompted some prominent Fidesz members to call for a boycott of the company’s products.

    The law means that TV shows and films featuring gay characters, or even a rainbow flag, would be permitted only after the watershed, say campaigners who have studied the legislation.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/hungary-passes-law-banning-lbgt-content-in-schools


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭ bb1234567


    It's fairly clear that people either haven't read the specifics of the law, understand the content and consequences or even how the Fidesz government passed the legislation

    This item about not promoting LGBT content to under 18s was tagged onto a child protection bill which legislates much harsher penalties for those convicted of child sex offenses and also legislates a searchable register for sex offenders. As a result of this, the law conflates LGBT with such offenses and also ensures that parliament won't vote against it as it could be spun that they were voting against the establishment of a searchable sex offender register etc. A very underhanded tactic to pass their legislation. It passed 157-1

    Some of the practicalities of the legislation with regards to LGBT people are;



    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/hungary-passes-law-banning-lbgt-content-in-schools

    Even reading that you'll have the same characters defending it. Is anyone naive enough to believe this is about welfare of children's health, seriously? If they are I honestly feel bad for them. They probably think it's well rounded principled individudals making the laws too, with the public's best interests at heart, just a little conservative and traditional minded is all, totally innocuous! Hopefully they don't find themselves within a minority group that has discriminatory laws proposed against them soon after in the name of the betterment and protection of of wider societal values..


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭ Theboinkmaster


    <Snip>

    Ignored threadban - one week forum ban


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,037 ✭✭✭ Mic 1972


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    In all fairness, LGBT shot itself in the foot over the last few years with its gender theory indoctrination. Governments pushing back against LGBT teaching in schools isn't regressing or hateful against gay people.


    How is this post considered uncivil or needlessly aggressive or confrontational?
    I think that LGBT could benefit from being more open to feedback, instead of locking out anybody who thinks differently


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,037 ✭✭✭ Mic 1972


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    Stonewall recently came out and argued that the terms "boys" and "girls" should be dropped in schools. Instead, the word "learner" is recommended.

    This is what many people mean by "going too far".

    I agree with them. As a member of the LGBT community, this is embarrassing and retrograde.

    It makes us look completely ridiculous and ideologically nuts.


    Thank you. That's exactly what i mean with LGBT shooting itself in the foot.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭ bb1234567


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Thank you. That's exactly what i mean with LGBT shooting itself in the foot.

    So because some idiots in stonewall proposed something silly , a fitting penalisation is that LGBT children in a completely different continent suffer increased alienation and deprived of access to important information about their sexual health while growing up? In what world is that right or just , and an appropriate response to a select few members of the lgbt community going overboard? All the 'community' suffers for it including countless innocent LGBT children who had no hand in the issues you speak of, and you're lapping it up. And what's worse is that you're so assured of your position as if there's nothing bad coming of it. Have a think about what that awful bill will mean for the welfare and societal reputation off gay people in Hungary , and this forced association with paedophilia the government has attached to homosexuality. But some head melts in New York came out with something you didn't like so you know what, those Hungarian bastards had it coming .


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Suggesting that pupils in schools are referred to as learners instead of boys and girls, what is wrong with that anyway?
    Don't see the big deal, we were often called students.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,037 ✭✭✭ Mic 1972


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Suggesting that pupils in schools are referred to as learners instead of boys and girls, what is wrong with that anyway?
    Don't see the big deal, we were often called students.


    the issue is with abolishing the use of Boy and Girl, as if the terms were somehow offensive or unappropriate


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    the issue is with abolishing the use of Boy and Girl, as if the terms were somehow offensive or unappropriate

    Noone is abolishing words, calm down.
    You won't be sent to prison for calling a girl, a girl.
    Advise to refer to children by the words learners or students is hardly going to cause any problems.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,037 ✭✭✭ Mic 1972


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    So because some idiots in stonewall proposed something silly , a fitting penalisation is that LGBT children in a completely different continent suffer increased alienation and deprived of access to important information about their sexual health while growing up? In what world is that right or just , and an appropriate response to a select few members of the lgbt community going overboard? All the 'community' suffers for it including countless innocent LGBT children who had no hand in the issues you speak of, and you're lapping it up. And what's worse is that you're so assured of your position as if there's nothing bad coming of it. Have a think about what that awful bill will mean for the welfare and societal reputation off gay people in Hungary , and this forced association with paedophilia the government has attached to homosexuality. But some head melts in New York came out with something you didn't like so you know what, those Hungarian bastards had it coming .


    Instead of blaming Hungary maybe there is a lesson to learn for LGBT.
    Lots of gay and lesbians are now distancing themselves form LGBT too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,037 ✭✭✭ Mic 1972


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Noone is abolishing words, calm down.
    You won't be sent to prison for calling a girl, a girl.
    Advise to refer to children by the words learners or students is hardly going to cause any problems.


    Advise teachers NOT to use the terms boy and girl, is the same as saying that such terms are inappropriate, which is nonsense and is the reason why people are turning their back at LGBT


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,249 ✭✭✭✭ Guy:Incognito


    If some stupid people within the LGBT community can be used as a reason to show how laws and protections should be curtailed, I have some very bad news for those in the straight community. Lads , we've been a breeding ground for stupid and dangerous people for thousands of years now.......


  • Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭ Das Reich


    Those people are so racist against Eastern Europe. Not the first time here I saw some users talking bad about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,249 ✭✭✭✭ Guy:Incognito


    Das Reich wrote: »
    Those people are so racist against Eastern Europe. Not the first time here I saw some users talking bad about it.

    Calling out peoples ****ty behaviour isnt racist.


    "why cant I just hate a certain group of people without people thinking im wrong, why am I always the victim..................."


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,249 ✭✭✭✭ Guy:Incognito


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Advise teachers NOT to use the terms boy and girl, is the same as saying that such terms are inappropriate, which is nonsense and is the reason why people are turning their back at LGBT

    Youre either deliberately trying to stir things up or swallowing divisive nonsense being spread by others. Kids in school have been referred to as pupils or students for as long as I can remember


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭ bb1234567


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Instead of blaming Hungary maybe there is a lesson to learn for LGBT.
    Lots of gay and lesbians are now distancing themselves form LGBT too.

    I think there is a lesson here for sure. The lesson is that is nothing to do with backlash to the problems you spoke about. Do you think Hungarian public or government ever gave time to this learner bull**** or whatever irrelevant nonsense was used in this thread to excuse hatred. No , this kind of harsh treatment of minorities is only introduced where their rights were always already trampled all over and not respected. It's just a continuation of that, nothing new. Or do you seriously think the Hungarian government was deeply concerned over the imminent arrival of the concept of their school kids being called learners ? Hahaha!

    There's a reason we will never see this kind of bill brought to Ireland or Canada , even though allegedly our LGBT communities are going 'overboard' here. Anyway mic , what will be our next punishment for our outspoken ways? Where will you 'draw the line' at these backlash measures that trample all over the rights of gay people , such as the right of gay children in Hungary to learn about sexuality, now gone. I'm sure that really softened the cough of the loud mouth Hungarian gays!


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Advise teachers NOT to use the terms boy and girl, is the same as saying that such terms are inappropriate, which is nonsense and is the reason why people are turning their back at LGBT

    No it's not the same.
    It's advising teachers to use certain terms is no big deal.
    And what is people turning their back on LGBT supposed to mean anyway?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,037 ✭✭✭ Mic 1972


    Youre either deliberately trying to stir things up or swallowing divisive nonsense being spread by others. Kids in school have been referred to as pupils or students for as long as I can remember


    I'm defending the use of terms Boy and Girl
    how is that stirring?


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,249 ✭✭✭✭ Guy:Incognito


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I'm defending the use of terms Boy and Girl
    how is that stirring?

    In what scenario? Teachers will generally refer to "the pupil" or "the student" and have done for decades. Its not new. They dont usually call them "the boy" , they arent Homer Simpson.

    Hungary are not new here, theyre just decades behind western European countries like the UK who since got rid of such laws.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,037 ✭✭✭ Mic 1972


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    I think there is a lesson here for sure. The lesson is that is nothing to do with backlash to the problems you spoke about. Do you think Hungarian public or government ever gave time to this learner bull**** or whatever irrelevant nonsense was used in this thread to excuse hatred. No , this kind of harsh treatment of minorities is only introduced where their rights were always already trampled all over and not respected. It's just a continuation of that, nothing new. Or do you seriously think the Hungarian government was deeply concerned over the imminent arrival of the concept of their school kids being called learners ? Hahaha!

    There's a reason we will never see this kind of bill brought to Ireland or Canada , even though allegedly our LGBT communities are going 'overboard' here


    Hungary is aware of how far things have gone in other countries, they are drawing a line to prevent things from getting out of hand.
    I'm expecting other European countries to adopt a similar approach in the next few years.
    A good way to avoid countries form become extremely anti-LGBT would be for LGBT to have a more tolerant approach towards non-LGBT


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,037 ✭✭✭ Mic 1972


    In what scenario? Teachers will generally refer to "the pupil" or "the student" and have done for decades. Its not new. They dont usually call them "the boy" , they arent Homer Simpson.


    I'm referring to this


    "Stonewall recently came out and argued that the terms "boys" and "girls" should be dropped in schools. Instead, the word "learner" is recommended."


    The general opinion is that the terms boys and girls should not be dropped, LGBT is pushing for something that is only going to make them even more unpopular


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭ bb1234567


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Hungary is aware of how far things have gone in other countries, they are drawing a line to prevent things from getting out of hand.
    I'm expecting other European countries to adopt a similar approach in the next few years.
    A good way to avoid countries form become extremely anti-LGBT would be for LGBT to have a more tolerant approach towards non-LGBT

    Oh how naive. And we went too far with women's right too I suppose. The pro active polish government really tried to stop that in its tracks huh? What fantastic initiatives these eastern governments have. I'm sure that's why quality of life is just so much higher in those regions of Europe


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭ eskimohunt


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I'm defending the use of terms Boy and Girl
    how is that stirring?

    Western LGBT has lost all perspective. I'm speaking moreso of the activists and self-proclaimed spokespeople of the community, including Stonewall but far from limited to them.

    Discussions of whether boy or girl should be used in schools, about a multiplicity of self-identified genders and so on -- is a massive distraction from what they really should be doing.

    I can think of countless examples.

    - highlighting cases of LGBT abuse in other countries, often Muslim countries.
    - offering dialogue between those of faith and those within the LGBT community.
    - raising awareness of sexual health matters within the community.

    You get the idea. These are productive and pragmatic paths to take.

    But this ridiculous sideshow of focussing on the use of language and self-identification does nothing more than alienate a previously LGBT-allied population. These are retrograde, alienating steps - and serve to reverse any progressive action over the past 20 years.

    It's almost as if they have too much power of equality and aren't quite sure what to do with it - so it becomes about channelling that power down any path, rather than be seen to do nothing at all.

    Ideological puritanism is always dangerous.


    "Civil rights used to be about treating everyone the same. But today some people are so used to special treatment that equal treatment is considered to be discrimination" - Thomas Sowell



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,037 ✭✭✭ Mic 1972


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    Oh how naive. And we went too far with women's right too I suppose. The pro active polish government really tried to stop that in its tracks huh? What fantastic initiatives these eastern governments have. I'm sure that's why quality of life is just so much higher in those regions of Europe


    Your comment is racist against Polish and other Eastern cultures


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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,629 ✭✭✭✭ listermint


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    Western LGBT has lost all perspective. I'm speaking moreso of the activists and self-proclaimed spokespeople of the community, including Stonewall but far from limited to them.

    Discussions of whether boy or girl should be used in schools, about a multiplicity of self-identified genders and so on -- is a massive distraction from what they really should be doing.

    I can think of countless examples.

    - highlighting cases of LGBT abuse in other countries, often Muslim countries.
    - offering dialogue between those of faith and those within the LGBT community.
    - raising awareness of sexual health matters within the community.

    You get the idea. These are productive and pragmatic paths to take.

    But this ridiculous sideshow of focussing on the use of language and self-identification does nothing more than alienate a previously LGBT-allied population. These are retrograde, alienating steps - and serve to reverse any progressive action over the past 20 years.

    It's almost as if they have too much power of equality and aren't quite sure what to do with it - so it becomes about channelling that power down any path, rather than be seen to do nothing at all.

    Ideological puritanism is always dangerous.

    What does any of that have to do with the Hungarian governments actions in this specific case which it appears you are still defending.

    Theses laws are used to marginalise specifically people like you. They target you . Not me. You.


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