What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

WrenBoy · 18-06-2021 1:13pm

machaseh wrote: »

Multiculturalism in Ireland. I think I can say something about that. I am mixed Dutch and Brazilian, and while I am white (and born and raised in the Netherlands) many people think I am a Brazilian when they first see me. This despite the fact that I have never even lived in Brazil and can only speak the language with a thick accent and grammatical mistakes.

Some things I've heard from Irish people.

'If you want to smoke weed in your house go back to Brazil ! ' I am not even from there...?
After 2 pints in the pub 'I am cutting you off get out' . I was not making any noise or anything at all and it were my first pints for the friday, I was just sitting at the bar having post work pints by me lonesome as I didnt feel like going anywhere.
Me sitting in the park on my little mat which happens to have a Brazil flag on it as I bought a souvenir when on vacation in Brazil: 'Oh get back here [name of child], look he has a Brazil flag come on now ! ' The child had ran towards me out of curiosity...
Irish family with a stroller walking past one of them phone shops near parnell sq: 'DON'T RUN IN THERE RORY ! THEY'LL ROB YOU BLIND !'
On Halloween, seeing children walk through the streets to do Trick or Treat: 'DON'T GO THERE, THATS WHERE THEM FOREIGNERS LIVE !'

I all just find it very funny seeing as I have a higher education and wage level than most Irish people lol. I also find it curious how a people group that cannot even speak their OWN native language properly can be so xenophobic. If I were Irish I'd be super ashamed and I'd be spending my time learning the Irish language rather than hurling xenophobic comments towards strangers.

You want us to feel bad for you or apologise as you insult us ? strange tactic but go for it I guess.

18-06-2021 1:18pm

machaseh wrote: »

Multiculturalism in Ireland. I think I can say something about that. I am mixed Dutch and Brazilian, and while I am white (and born and raised in the Netherlands) many people think I am a Brazilian when they first see me.

Seems a strange leap. Why wouldn't they assume you were Spanish (based solely off appearance, if you are indeed, white)

This despite the fact that I have never even lived in Brazil and can only speak the language with a thick accent and grammatical mistakes.

I all just find it very funny seeing as I have a higher education and wage level than most Irish people lol. I also find it curious how a people group that cannot even speak their OWN native language properly can be so xenophobic. If I were Irish I'd be super ashamed and I'd be spending my time learning the Irish language rather than hurling xenophobic comments towards strangers.

So, you can't speak your own native language(s) but you're critical of Irish people who can't speak Irish?

Ireland has two official languages. Irish and English.. with Irish having extremely impact on the daily lives/careers of most people.

As for your range of things that Irish people have supposedly said... there are many foreigners in Ireland, and have been for a long time. We have a strong tourism industry, along with education that is attractive for foreigners... so, few Irish people would be freaked out by "foreigners". Especially, to the extent that you suggested. I could, understand, if you were Black, Asian, or whatever... but you're white... so.. nah.

mohawk · 18-06-2021 1:36pm

Mr.Menace wrote: »

This was exactly my family, we came here 20 years ago with nothing from Africa, me and my sister both went to college my sister has a law degree and is also a graduate from kings Inn as well and now she has a great paying job from a well known company. I dropped out of college but I still managed to get a good paying job. And my little brother is currently studying chemistry in trinity and is working part time in a warehouse . My mother is working in a local charity shop. But the funny thing is that on here a lot of people don’t have a clue, yes there are obviously people who milk off the system and don’t contribute mainly first generation immigrants. But trust me most of the second generation go to college get a degree and get a high paying job, most of the 2nd generation immigrants i know all have degrees and masters, they all work in finance, tech, and medicine for big companies and are contributing to the economy. But I guess that’s not the narrative that people on this forum want to hear.

No one should be critical of any families that move to another country for a better life. It sounds like you family and circle of friends are a success story. You guys got opportunity for third level and it sounds like you are hard workers. I would point out many people on this thread are not anti immigrant. Some are more for controlled immigration to allow for better integration and social cohesion and also because resources are scarce. Ireland can’t take in every family that want a better life because we just don’t have the money to house them all and everything else they and their children need. Our housing situation is a mess, healthcare system is barely coping pre-covid.
In some parts of Europe second generation immigrants from certain places have struggled to get out of the poverty that they grew up in. Their parents came to Europe with nothing and poor skills, or education or language and unfortunately their children are stuck in a poverty trap. Some posters on this thread have expressed a wish that they don’t want this to happen in Ireland. Personally I believe control the numbers coming in so that nobody gets left behind.

enricoh · 18-06-2021 1:38pm

Mr.Menace wrote: »

This was exactly my family, we came here 20 years ago with nothing from Africa, me and my sister both went to college my sister has a law degree and is also a graduate from kings Inn as well and now she has a great paying job from a well known company. I dropped out of college but I still managed to get a good paying job. And my little brother is currently studying chemistry in trinity and is working part time in a warehouse . My mother is working in a local charity shop. But the funny thing is that on here a lot of people don’t have a clue, yes there are obviously people who milk off the system and don’t contribute mainly first generation immigrants. But trust me most of the second generation go to college get a degree and get a high paying job, most of the 2nd generation immigrants i know all have degrees and masters, they all work in finance, tech, and medicine for big companies and are contributing to the economy. But I guess that’s not the narrative that people on this forum want to hear.

Genuinely fair play to you, but there was studies done in the UK on the financial implications of migrants to the UK coffers.
Eu migrants were cost neutral overall whereas third world migrants cost the taxpayer a fortune.

MarkEadie · 18-06-2021 1:45pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, it's vague and full of generalisations. Doesn't mean it's wrong though. You see, I have little interest in researching in depth on such a topic, and your first sentence explains why. You chose to pick an example I made about two national groups who entered two particular industries to fullfill a need, but rather than recognise the main point, that the economy has shifted, you chose instead to seek an objection over race.

It wouldn't matter if I presented an in-depth analysis, referencing statistics, because you'd dismiss it, or simply ignore it so that you could latch on to something else. Usually a point that wasn't made. It's not like you haven't done so before.

Besides, in spite of all you've written, you haven't once countered anything I've written... You went off in different directions, but not dealing with what I wrote.

I didn't pigeonhole anyone into anything. For someone who want specifics, you're doing a rather inadequate job of dealing with what was actually written, as opposed to running off on a tangent about things that weren't made.

You're delusional. Speed seducation is not about covertly hypnotising women into having sex... it's about a lot of utterly retarded notions, but that's not one of them. You might want to reread whatever post I made about it.. Also for context you should link the actual post, so that other posters can see how inaccurately you're representing what I wrote. (Just link the post to a word as opposed to the full link being displayed)

I didn't pay 3k a pop. I'm not insane, and I definitely didn't have 3k to spend on an unaccreditated course when I was in my early 20s. If I said I spent 3k, it was likely over a decade of being interested in this stuff, and included travel expenses along with other costs.

Ahh well... in spite of you using an incredibly bizarre example, trainer courses are difficult to organise and run (in order to be profitable), although many Indians already do them in the areas of management, train the trainer, accelerated learning etc. Besides, most of it has been shifting online where there is a greater degree of competition, but the operating costs decrease dramatically. Although the funny thing is that to do such a trainer course, the expectation would be that the trainer would be skilled/educated enough to offer something to their potential customers. Not a viable avenue for the unskilled.

As for upskill, and retaining... yes, there are such courses, although, if you read on their overall successes, there's a lot of criticism directed by employers and students alike. In that they're often out-dated, and lacking in practical value. All the same, these are funded by the taxpayer.. so, why should we be encouraging foreigners to come here, just so that we can pay for their education, and have no reliable way to benefit from that investment? Nor any guarantee that, by the time, they finish the courses that there will be employment for them.

I don't quite understand your logic. We should bring in unskilled/uneducated workers, for whom there are limited employment available for them. But that's okay! We can upskill/educate them, and while that's happening, the state will be required to support their lifestyles (and that of their family)... and they'll enter employment with qualifications of questionable value (assuming they pass, which isn't guaranteed). What is the benefit to Ireland? Why not skip all that by focusing instead on those who already have the skills/education to be employed, but also have the ability to find new work, should their initial positions become void?

<<<Note>>> A last point. I'm pretty sure it was you on the football booing thread that went on to make claims about other posts of mine. That I was intent on starting an anti-immigration party (Which I'm not). If that was you, stop it. Both this time (speed seducation), and that time (multiculturalism thread reference), you were inaccurate in your claims, and didn't represent fairly what I had written. Instead, you made your own vague claims, without providing context, and seeking to twist unrelated posts just to score some points. It's bad form, and rather dishonest.

Well I'm not sure why you're denying that speed seduction seminars are about attempting to covertly hypnotise women when a simple Google search reveals that. The idea that you and others can defend going around and trying to covertly use weird stuff like the "falling in love speed seduction pattern" (look it up) is quite frankly worrying stuff. I don't want to derail threads so that's why I didn't get into it before but you've asked so that is just some clarification. Those seminars also do cost 3k which is freely available on Google also but perhaps it was cheaper back when you took them.
I think we can leave the speed seduction stuff there and keep on topic.

As for the remainder of your post, I think we can both agree you were vague and full of generalisations as you said and that is all I was taking you up on really. You said that doesn't mean you were wrong. My point was why be vague and generalise to make points anyway. It is wrong and actually offensive to stereotype people into certain occupations due to their race, which I would have thought was self explanatory.

WrenBoy · 18-06-2021 1:49pm

MarkEadie wrote: »

Well I'm not sure why you're denying that speed seduction seminars are about attempting to covertly hypnotise women when a simple Google search reveals that. The idea that you and others can defend going around and trying to covertly use weird stuff like the "falling in love speed seduction pattern" (look it up) is quite frankly worrying stuff. I don't want to derail threads so that's why I didn't get into it before but you've asked so that is just some clarification. Those seminars also do cost 3k which is freely available on Google also but perhaps it was cheaper back when you took them.
I think we can leave the speed seduction stuff there and keep on topic.
...

this is a weird exercise, trying to subtly call a poster here a sexual predator because they argue against your points... weird.

18-06-2021 2:32pm

MarkEadie wrote: »

Well I'm not sure why you're denying that speed seduction seminars are about attempting to covertly hypnotise women when a simple Google search reveals that.

Because it's ignorant marketing spin.

Hypnotism, at least the elements that concern speed seduction, isn't actually hypnotism. They're the use of mental states found in NLP theory, and slight subconscious behaviors that most people have. The anchoring of emotional states to physical actions or responses, possibly linking them to verbal remarks, but it's all very limited an situational. And nobody can be covertly hypnotized, since it takes a conscious acceptance of the doer. Anyone with a distrust of the other person, has a natural resistance to being hypnotized. Anchoring can occur without conscious approval, but anchoring is extremely limited, and has a very short lifecycle without regular reinforcement.

As I said... it's ignorant marketing spin.

The idea that you and others can defend going around and trying to covertly use weird stuff like the "falling in love speed seduction pattern" (look it up) is quite frankly worrying stuff.

I called it utterly retarded nonsense. Does that sound like I'm defending it? Oh, I do believe that certain aspects of speed seduction are useful, when applied correctly, and under the right circumstances, but most of it is rubbish, and unhealthy. The funny thing is that you seem to believe that all this speed seducation stuff works, and works for anyone applying it. It certainly doesn't. Oh.. btw, speed seduction is a particular area coined by a guy called, Ross jeffries.. which is somewhat different from the PUA scene. You appear to have some kind of confusion as to what's involved in both.

Care to provide a link to the posts of mine where you're drawing all this from?

I don't want to derail threads so that's why I didn't get into it before but you've asked so that is just some clarification.

You've already sought to derail the thread with this nonsense... and you remain inaccurate in how you do so.

But, sure, I'm fine with not continuing on about Speed Seduction. But.. as I said, I would love if you stopped referencing my posts from outside a thread, and doing so in such an inaccurate manner. That's twice now you've done this. Next time, I'll go to the mods over it.

Those seminars also do cost 3k which is freely available on Google also but perhaps it was cheaper back when you took them.
I think we can leave the speed seduction stuff there and keep on topic.

I think you're making **** up, and don't have a clue about the whole topic.

As for the remainder of your post, I think we can both agree you were vague and full of generalisations as you said and that is all I was taking you up on really. You said that doesn't mean you were wrong. My point was why be vague and generalise to make points anyway. It is wrong and actually offensive to stereotype people into certain occupations due to their race, which I would have thought was self explanatory.

You made accusations, and failed to defend them (repeating yourself isn't a defense). I didn't stereotype anyone in that post. Reread the post, and consider the context of the whole sentence, as opposed to taking bits out piecemeal.

MarkEadie · 18-06-2021 3:02pm

I've been specific in saying that you were stereotyping indians and pakistanis into job occupations based on their race/ethnicity. That is what I took exception to and it's a pretty bad thing to be doing in my opinion which I'll stand by. You admitted that you were generalising and said it was ok "because it's not wrong". I have said it is wrong and you have told me to reread the post in the whole context. I still stand by what I've said.

Regarding the speed seduction stuff I will have one more word on that and then let you have the last word. If you want to debate that we can open up another thread. I will not be commenting on it any further here. The search function on here is too cumbersome to go through but we agree that you said you attended 3 seminars and bought ross jeffries material. I will quote Professor Viren Swami from Anglia Ruskin University who has studied it and is a peer reviewed scientist.

"The general idea is that you're supposed to anchor your actions to someone's emotions. Then, when you do that action again, you can promote a response in the other person and they don't even realise it.

Some people call it seduction hypnosis, as they believe you can tap into somebody's subconscious and make them want to bang you. Gross.

Swami tells Metro.co.uk: Lots of men using these techniques believe they are exploiting a loophole in female psychology. With NLP, they believe they can "re-code" their romantic target to change her behaviour and trigger a woman's hard-wired attraction switches."

It's quite disgusting stuff and people defending it need to take a look at themselves. That's all I will say. If you disagree you are welcome to open a thread defending that conduct and I will be happy to engage in a debate there. This will be the last comment I make on it here.

jmayo · 18-06-2021 3:20pm

MarkEadie wrote: »

Correct. A lot of the posts from the anti immigration side are just not worthy of response I feel, which is a shame. Its a little bit like reviewing a product. The majority of people who review are usually the ones who complain. You can't really get a reasonable discussion going with people who want to set up their own parties against immigration as I've seen in a couple of posts. Then there were the emails to the TDs

And what is wrong with setting up a party to control immigration and contacting public representatives to consider that view rather than the views of NGOs, social media mouthpieces, vested interested parties feeding at the immigration trough and celebrity endorsers ?

Very few have ever said No Immigrants.
And very few would have said you have to be white, catholic or some such.
The number would be single digits in any discussion on boards that have that opinion.

Mr.Menace wrote: »

This was exactly my family, we came here 20 years ago with nothing from Africa, me and my sister both went to college my sister has a law degree and is also a graduate from kings Inn as well and now she has a great paying job from a well known company. I dropped out of college but I still managed to get a good paying job. And my little brother is currently studying chemistry in trinity and is working part time in a warehouse . My mother is working in a local charity shop. But the funny thing is that on here a lot of people don’t have a clue, yes there are obviously people who milk off the system and don’t contribute mainly first generation immigrants. But trust me most of the second generation go to college get a degree and get a high paying job, most of the 2nd generation immigrants i know all have degrees and masters, they all work in finance, tech, and medicine for big companies and are contributing to the economy. But I guess that’s not the narrative that people on this forum want to hear.

I have to say you, your brother and mother sound great, your sister not so much.:(
Sorry but I can't abide legal professionals no matter what race, sex, creed they are.
There is just something about them.

And we have way too many of them.

Esho wrote: »

Most of the posters on this forum don't get out much, I think. Opinions come from the news, and the more extreme cases. I
t's like believing everyone from Neilstown or Crumlin is a criminal.

This is typical of some posts by proponents of multiculturalism and most especially lax immigration together with some other now right on views where they arrive, make gross generalisations about the opposing views with no real evidence to back it up and then disappear into the ether.

And then they usually complain that people won't engage in a discussion with them.

To me it is the equivalent of going round to someones house peeing on the kitchen floor, wiping yourself off on the curtains and then complaining they didn't give you a cup of tea. :rolleyes:

enricoh · 18-06-2021 3:28pm

The permanently outraged need a constant source of ammo.
So we're not to say indians are more likely than average to open a restaurant and Pakistanis a shop! What next saying polish are good welders n lithuanians are handy fixing cars is offensive.

Here mark I'm offended by a horse named paddy the plasterer, get the twitterati onto it!

I'd also like to admit I inhaled in college n popped an odd e many moons ago Mark, it might save you going through my posts and bringing up something utterly meaningless to the thread!

Gentlemanne · 18-06-2021 4:00pm

WrenBoy wrote: »

You want us to feel bad for you or apologise as you insult us ? strange tactic but go for it I guess.

Hmm, why is it you take it personally when he relates his experience of xenophobia?

ArthurDayne · 18-06-2021 4:18pm

jmayo wrote: »

And what is wrong with setting up a party to control immigration and contacting public representatives to consider that view rather than the views of NGOs, social media mouthpieces, vested interested parties feeding at the immigration trough and celebrity endorsers ?

Very few have ever said No Immigrants.
And very few would have said you have to be white, catholic or some such.
The number would be single digits in any discussion on boards that have that opinion.

I have to say you, your brother and mother sound great, your sister not so much.:(
Sorry but I can't abide legal professionals no matter what race, sex, creed they are.
There is just something about them.

And we have way too many of them.

This is typical of some posts by proponents of multiculturalism and most especially lax immigration together with some other now right on views where they arrive, make gross generalisations about the opposing views with no real evidence to back it up and then disappear into the ether.

And then they usually complain that people won't engage in a discussion with them.

To me it is the equivalent of going round to someones house peeing on the kitchen floor, wiping yourself off on the curtains and then complaining they didn't give you a cup of tea. :rolleyes:

Seems more than a bit odd to complain about gross generalisations in the very same post where you say you don’t like the sound of someone you’ve never met because she’s (possibly) a legal professional and you just don’t like legal professionals. I’m a lawyer myself and there are a whole range of personalities in the profession.

18-06-2021 5:02pm

MarkEadie wrote: »

I've been specific in saying that you were stereotyping indians and pakistanis into job occupations based on their race/ethnicity. That is what I took exception to and it's a pretty bad thing to be doing in my opinion which I'll stand by. You admitted that you were generalising and said it was ok "because it's not wrong". I have said it is wrong and you have told me to reread the post in the whole context. I still stand by what I've said.

I said that in the UK, that Indians tended to open restaurants, and Pakistani's tended to open shops.. It's not pigeonholing any racial group into a particular set of job roles.

"we were talking about the Indian and Pakistani immigrants who came there over the decades. You'd see the Indians often opening up restaurants, and the Pakistanis opening shops. A generalization, but still quite accurate."

You consistently misrepresent posts.

Regarding the speed seduction stuff

Jesus F'ing Christ. Get over it.

You claim to have read some of my posts on this, but refuse to provide links to what you supposedly have read. Your own memory on what you read (and what you're posting here) is inaccurate, and until you can provide us all with links to what I posted... you're out of order.

Now. I'm finished talking about this since you haven't a clue what you're going on about, and in any case, I am not an advocate of this stufff. You're going by posts I did ages ago, and interests I had... an even longer time ago (two decades). Jeez.

I will be happy to engage in a debate there.

So start debating.. but at least show some decency by not misrepresenting posts.

Esho · 18-06-2021 6:13pm

machaseh wrote: »

Multiculturalism in Ireland. I think I can say something about that. I am mixed Dutch and Brazilian, and while I am white (and born and raised in the Netherlands) many people think I am a Brazilian when they first see me. This despite the fact that I have never even lived in Brazil and can only speak the language with a thick accent and grammatical mistakes.

Some things I've heard from Irish people.

'If you want to smoke weed in your house go back to Brazil ! ' I am not even from there...?
After 2 pints in the pub 'I am cutting you off get out' . I was not making any noise or anything at all and it were my first pints for the friday, I was just sitting at the bar having post work pints by me lonesome as I didnt feel like going anywhere.
Me sitting in the park on my little mat which happens to have a Brazil flag on it as I bought a souvenir when on vacation in Brazil: 'Oh get back here [name of child], look he has a Brazil flag come on now ! ' The child had ran towards me out of curiosity...
Irish family with a stroller walking past one of them phone shops near parnell sq: 'DON'T RUN IN THERE RORY ! THEY'LL ROB YOU BLIND !'
On Halloween, seeing children walk through the streets to do Trick or Treat: 'DON'T GO THERE, THATS WHERE THEM FOREIGNERS LIVE !'

I all just find it very funny seeing as I have a higher education and wage level than most Irish people lol. I also find it curious how a people group that cannot even speak their OWN native language properly can be so xenophobic. If I were Irish I'd be super ashamed and I'd be spending my time learning the Irish language rather than hurling xenophobic comments towards strangers.

It's the same old ding dong from the same class of morons in most every country I've been in.
I was born bred and buttered here, but as my father was not Irish and I didn't look Irish" and I got all that guff too.
It is just ignorance.

Esho · 18-06-2021 6:14pm

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Hmm, why is it you take it personally when he relates his experience of xenophobia?

Yes, good point. Take a look at yourself.

Esho · 18-06-2021 6:15pm

Cordell wrote: »

omg poor you.

Been on the receiving end of that kind of crap yourself? No?
Didn't think so.

Esho · 18-06-2021 6:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose you have some evidence for that assertion? I can think of 5-6 regular posters on this thread who have lived extensively abroad, before returning to Ireland... and I don't remember anything from the posters on this forum, showing that they don't get out much.

The thing is... I don't recall you challenging the posters views.. Just this vague nonsense. So, how about quoting peoples posts, and countering their views?

Again, that's your claim. I haven't seen such a claim from any poster.

What's with these claims of attitudes that weren't displayed? Vague assertions based on nothing.

Maybe they've travelled extensively, but that's not what num talking about.. many posts here reade like they don't know 1st or 2nd generation Irish, and live in their little bubble.

Esho · 18-06-2021 6:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose you have some evidence for that assertion? I can think of 5-6 regular posters on this thread who have lived extensively abroad, before returning to Ireland... and I don't remember anything from the posters on this forum, showing that they don't get out much.

The thing is... I don't recall you challenging the posters views.. Just this vague nonsense. So, how about quoting peoples posts, and countering their views?

Again, that's your claim. I haven't seen such a claim from any poster.

What's with these claims of attitudes that weren't displayed? Vague assertions based on nothing.

Maybe they've travelled extensively, but that's not what I'm talking about.. many posts here reade like they don't know 1st or 2nd generation Irish, and live in their little bubble.

Your posts read like that to me tbh.

18-06-2021 6:35pm

Esho wrote: »

Been on the receiving end of that kind of crap yourself? No?
Didn't think so.

Whereas, I have. I live, for the most part, in China, where foreigners are rare in comparison to the native population. In Xi'an, with a population of 9 million people, there are roughly 20k foreigners living there. That's all foreigners, not just White people... so, I do know what it's like to be on the receiving end of stereotypes, racist, and discrimination. And for China, the focus is on all foreigners, because few Chinese people ever have a meaningful conversation with any foreigner, and so rely on their own state run media, or traditional stereotypes.

Whereas in Ireland, many Irish people have traveled themselves, or have had regular contact with foreigners from all manner of backgrounds. The idea that Irish people would react the way that poster said, because he was "foreign" is ridiculous, especially since he's white. Now, that may have happened 20-30 years ago in the countryside, but not now, considering the amount of tourism, and immigration that Ireland has been on the receiving end of.

It's likely that there is racism in Ireland towards those of other racial groups (non-white). That would make sense, since Ireland is a predominately white nation, as are most European nations. The shift in demographics for non-whites in Ireland is a relatively new thing, so it's understandable that many Irish probably don't have much personal experience with Black or Asian people. All the same, we do have a long history of social conditioning and laws against discrimination or racism towards non-Irish people.

machaseh's post made a claim towards general xenophobia in Ireland... not against Black people or Asians.. but against foreigners in general. IMHO it doesn't sound realistic. Now, racism against Black or Asians, sure.. I could see that happening. It'll take time for Irish people to become comfortable with other racial groups, especially since not everyone has the opportunity to know them as real people, as opposed to strangers they don't talk to.

18-06-2021 6:40pm

Esho wrote: »

Maybe they've travelled extensively, but that's not what num talking about.. many posts here reade like they don't know 1st or 2nd generation Irish, and live in their little bubble.

That's fine. Perhaps that's the way it appears to you. Although for my own part, I used to do volunteer teaching (whenever I was home) at the community center, teaching English to Travellers and minority groups. I know quite a few families who immigrated here with children, who have since graduated and become employed. So.. no.. I do have experience.

The flip side, is where I spoke about the problems that 2nd generation migrants have in a country, where they have issues connecting with their host nations culture, vs their parents culture. Being stuck in the middle, not belonging to either. This can be seen if you go through some of the EU research on integration (which we covered earlier in the thread).

ArthurDayne · 19-06-2021 11:19am

Deleted User wrote: »

Whereas, I have. I live, for the most part, in China, where foreigners are rare in comparison to the native population. In Xi'an, with a population of 9 million people, there are roughly 20k foreigners living there. That's all foreigners, not just White people... so, I do know what it's like to be on the receiving end of stereotypes, racist, and discrimination. And for China, the focus is on all foreigners, because few Chinese people ever have a meaningful conversation with any foreigner, and so rely on their own state run media, or traditional stereotypes.

Whereas in Ireland, many Irish people have traveled themselves, or have had regular contact with foreigners from all manner of backgrounds. The idea that Irish people would react the way that poster said, because he was "foreign" is ridiculous, especially since he's white. Now, that may have happened 20-30 years ago in the countryside, but not now, considering the amount of tourism, and immigration that Ireland has been on the receiving end of.

It's likely that there is racism in Ireland towards those of other racial groups (non-white). That would make sense, since Ireland is a predominately white nation, as are most European nations. The shift in demographics for non-whites in Ireland is a relatively new thing, so it's understandable that many Irish probably don't have much personal experience with Black or Asian people. All the same, we do have a long history of social conditioning and laws against discrimination or racism towards non-Irish people.

machaseh's post made a claim towards general xenophobia in Ireland... not against Black people or Asians.. but against foreigners in general. IMHO it doesn't sound realistic. Now, racism against Black or Asians, sure.. I could see that happening. It'll take time for Irish people to become comfortable with other racial groups, especially since not everyone has the opportunity to know them as real people, as opposed to strangers they don't talk to.

To be fair there was quite a lot of xenophobia on display when the Eastern Europeans first started arriving in number here — I certainly remember it around the Newry area anyway. Ranged from everything to the ever-present ‘taking our jobs’ mantra, the warnings to avoid them because they all apparently carried knives, all the way to plain old hate crimes. A guy I went to school with is now serving a sentence for a vicious and grotesquely violent murder of a homeless Polish man in Newry, where the attack had been preceded by xenophobic slurs and ended with the poor man having his throat stamped on repeatedly. There was also plenty of graffiti and smashed windows — “Polish Out”, all that kind of s**t.

In Dublin I’ve seen a fair bit of xenophobia. I have seen Brazilians being abused and slurred at by taxi drivers (without at all trying to say it’s representative of the profession) — seemingly on a recurring theme that they are all rickshaw-pedalling drug dealers. As well as that, having quite a lot of French and Spanish friends here I’ve seen the way they can be targeted with particular viciousness by thugs. A French lad I know — gang of youths just started having a go at him in McDonalds on O’Connell Street one night and there was plenty said about him being foreign this French that — and they just were getting more and more worked up — then they absolutely battered him on the street outside.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t entirely disregard the influence of blind rage in this. I went to a solidly Nationalist/Republican school and when we played Omagh CBS in the McRory Cup one of the lads screamed “No wonder the Ra bombed yas” at someone on the sideline. So yeah, people get enraged and lose the run of themselves. It does seem to be the case that in Ireland (and this is purely from my own personal experience) there is both straight-up xenophobia here, but also a kind of rage-induced xenophobia where the fact that someone is a foreigner seems to embolden certain people or give them a sense of just cause in assaulting them — verbally or physically. Hard to get into the minutiae of that in legal terms though when it comes to penalising and legislating for hate crime.

19-06-2021 11:52am

ArthurDayne wrote: »

To be fair there was quite a lot of xenophobia on display when the Eastern Europeans first started arriving in number here — I certainly remember it around the Newry area anyway. Ranged from everything to the ever-present ‘taking our jobs’ mantra, the warnings to avoid them because they all apparently carried knives, all the way to plain old hate crimes. A guy I went to school with is now serving a sentence for a vicious and grotesquely violent murder of a homeless Polish man in Newry, where the attack had been preceded by xenophobic slurs and ended with the poor man having his throat stamped on repeatedly. There was also plenty of graffiti and smashed windows — “Polish Out”, all that kind of s**t.

True enough. There was a lot of xenophobia towards foreigners when they first started coming here... but how long ago was that? Nowadays, I rarely, if ever hear anything negative about the Poles. In fact, most people talk about how wonderful they are, and how the represent what Irish people were like before the Celtic Tiger. As I said, there will be a period of adjustment, and Ireland, for the most part, has made that adjustment with regards to "foreigners". I don't think the adjustment has been made towards Black people, but that will come eventually.

Sure, there are fears from the working class, and those who aim towards low-skilled jobs that foreigners are a threat, because they are. They do take those positions, and as can be seen from this thread, there are a lot of people advocating that we bring in more people with low-skills to increase competition of low-skilled employment (and increase the demands on government supports), when such positions are limited considering the type of economy that Ireland has.

In Dublin I’ve seen a fair bit of xenophobia. I have seen Brazilians being abused and slurred at by taxi drivers (without at all trying to say it’s representative of the profession) — seemingly on a recurring theme that they are all rickshaw-pedalling drug dealers. As well as that, having quite a lot of French and Spanish friends here I’ve seen the way they can be targeted with particular viciousness by thugs. A French lad I know — gang of youths just started having a go at him in McDonalds on O’Connell Street one night and there was plenty said about him being foreign this French that — and they just were getting more and more worked up — then they absolutely battered him on the street outside.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t entirely disregard the influence of blind rage in this. I went to a solidly Nationalist/Republican school and when we played Omagh CBS in the McRory Cup one of the lads screamed “No wonder the Ra bombed yas” at someone on the sideline. So yeah, people get enraged and lose the run of themselves. It does seem to be the case that in Ireland (and this is purely from my own personal experience) there is both straight-up xenophobia here, but also a kind of rage-induced xenophobia where the fact that someone is a foreigner seems to embolden certain people or give them a sense of just cause in assaulting them — verbally or physically. Hard to get into the minutiae of that in legal terms though when it comes to penalising and legislating for hate crime.

Ahh well, I'd say that people have bad experiences and fights in this country for all manner of reasons (myself included), and it's rare that it comes down to a simplistic reason like xenophobia. I've seen foreigners behaving in aggressive manner or tweaking the noses of locals, which does result in fights or other problems. It's been very rare that I've seen any aggression directed towards foreigners because they were foreign... and most of own my friends in Ireland, are not Irish. They're people who studied here and stayed, or people who migrated here to work.

That's not to say that there isn't some xenophobia here in Ireland. I'd never claim that there's a complete absence of xenophobia, racism, or whatever... but I am skeptical of claims that it's widespread, simply because most foreigners I know in Ireland are extremely happy here.

And considering the kind of person I am, my friends all tend to be argumentative, and would say if they felt otherwise.

Justin Credible Darts · 19-06-2021 1:14pm

I laugh at how people seem to get offended cos poles and foreigners were treated badly by dubs.

dublin people treated culchies from ireland the same way....seems it is only an issue if the people slated were non irish....go figure.

Dubs are not racist, they insult everyone equally

before any mod gets upset...its a joke

19-06-2021 5:23pm

It's laughable on this thread, some actual foreign people post their experiences in Ireland. Posters then downplay their experiences, tell them how lucky they are, tell them it wasn't really racism, basically don't believe them.

Yep, sure how would those silly foreigners understand........

Justin Credible Darts · 19-06-2021 6:19pm

where are these posts you refer to, I would be interested to see if the actually exist.

Sand · 19-06-2021 6:45pm

bubblypop wrote: »

It's laughable on this thread, some actual foreign people post their experiences in Ireland. Posters then downplay their experiences, tell them how lucky they are, tell them it wasn't really racism, basically don't believe them.

Yep, sure how would those silly foreigners understand........

Individual anecdotes have to be weighed appropriately against systematic negative impacts for indigenous people. If anything, the anecdotes shared about individuals having a tough time in a multicultural society only reinforces that it is a bad policy and should be ended.

19-06-2021 7:34pm

bubblypop wrote: »

It's laughable on this thread, some actual foreign people post their experiences in Ireland. Posters then downplay their experiences, tell them how lucky they are, tell them it wasn't really racism, basically don't believe them.

Yep, sure how would those silly foreigners understand........

The flip side, is how could those silly natives understand or be aware of what's going on...

This thread has a lot of claims by posters who popped in, made a statement, and then disappeared when they were challenged on their opinion, or experience. What? We should automatically accept other peoples viewpoints (on an anonymous system) because... a claim was made? Shouldn't such claims be challenged, or discussed?

Justin Credible Darts · 19-06-2021 7:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The flip side, is how could those silly natives understand or be aware of what's going on...

This thread has a lot of claims by posters who popped in, made a statement, and then disappeared when they were challenged on their opinion, or experience. What? We should automatically accept other peoples viewpoints (on an anonymous system) because... a claim was made? Shouldn't such claims be challenged, or discussed?

maybe first he should produce the claims he makes

Cordell · 19-06-2021 7:38pm

bubblypop wrote: »

It's laughable on this thread, some actual foreign people post their experiences in Ireland. Posters then downplay their experiences, tell them how lucky they are, tell them it wasn't really racism, basically don't believe them.

Yep, sure how would those silly foreigners understand........

Foreigner here, came here 10 years ago, is my opinion accepted?
In the past 10 years there were ample opportunities to be affected by racism but it never happened to me, or to my family.
If anecdotical evidence is ok, why not accept mine as well?

Justin Credible Darts · 19-06-2021 7:40pm

Cordell wrote: »

Foreigner here, came here 10 years ago, is my opinion accepted?
In the past 10 years there were ample opportunities to be affected by racism but it never happened to me, or to my family.
If anecdotical evidence is ok, why not accept mine as well?

because it wont suit his agenda.

What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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