What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

17-06-2021 2:27pm

randd1 wrote: »

Immigrants who want to come into this country? Yeah better that they're skilled, but far more important is the attitude to work hard, become a part of the community and guide their kids to do as best they can. Being skilled is secondary for me.

I'd agree with that... in part. The problem is that the world has changed and moved away from many of the economic considerations of the past.

I was talking to the manager of our local Lidl, which is closing down for a week of renovations.. mostly so that they can install a number of automated checking stations. They're aiming to be more cost effective, but as a result, will be laying off 9 people who worked there part-time. And we're going to see a lot more of that in the future, as companies seek to become more efficient with the coming recession. Even without the recession, many businesses were struggling to remain profitable.. and will be seeking to lay off people.

The point that remains relevant for Ireland is how much employment will exist for low skilled labor in the immediate future, and even after that period, will the country return to needing such labor. It's unlikely that it will.

Another conversation I had recently was with my brother who lived in the UK for two decades, and we were talking about the Indian and Pakistani immigrants who came there over the decades. You'd see the Indians often opening up restaurants, and the Pakistanis opening shops. A generalization, but still quite accurate. They saw a need in the economy, and met the demands that existed.. but that demand is, and has been declining for some time now. Both due to technology, the internet, and also social changes in eating habits, along with the desire for a healthier lifestyle, which does open up new opportunities, but tends to close them for the unskilled.

When we look at Ireland, with it's current population, there isn't a huge demand for services provided by the unskilled. With technology, and modern management principles, it's relatively easy for one business to provide for a large area. Add in four or five competing businesses, and the area is saturated. It's highly questionable whether the population of Ireland would increase to provide a broader marketplace for these services, increasing demand.. especially since we're seeing an actual increase in poverty, and the costs of living for the average person, which cuts drastically into consumer spending power.

I can certainly understand your perspective. There are many migrants who want to work hard, raise a family, and their children will become educated, filling the gaps within the economy... however, we already have enough low skilled people to fill the employment needs for economic demands. It might be different (although I don't think it is.. except in the short term) if the Irish economy was booming, but even in the last decade, we've been seeing many Irish companies/businesses fail because their consumer base hasn't been enough to cover their costs, and need for profits... as their operating costs have continued to increase.

The question we need to ask is whether this is sustainable. Do we encourage immigration of people who, while having the best of intentions to work, are likely to become unemployed within a few years? Or is better to focus on those who are skilled/educated, who stand the best chance of being adaptable in a modern employment market?

mohawk · 17-06-2021 2:34pm

randd1 wrote: »

There's another type of immigrant.

A neighbour down the road from us came over here about 20 years ago from the UK, an Indian chap and his family. Not particularly educated, and neither was his wife. They had 4 kids of schools going age.

Now they got a council house which some of the locals weren't happy about. Typical bloody immigrants getting everything talk around the area.

The father worked for years in a supermarket as he couldn't really get anywhere else due to a lack of qualifications. The mother didn't work.

The thing is though, while he worked whatever hours he could, without fail, the mother made sure her kids went to school. The kids mixed with locals no bother, and they were pleasant to talk to.

Roll on 20 years, the 4 kids are in decent well paying jobs, the wife works as a cleaner and father the works in a different shop, and they're part of the local furniture.

The point is sometimes immigrants who might not be skilled do come here with the intention of making the most of what little they have in order to give their kids something better.

Immigrants who want to come into this country? Yeah better that they're skilled, but far more important is the attitude to work hard, become a part of the community and guide their kids to do as best they can. Being skilled is secondary for me.

Your neighbours sound like great people and I am sure they are not an isolated case either. I have to say my experience of Indians I have met is that they really believe in hard work. They came here for a better life for their children and I honestly don’t begrudge them that. My only hesitation here is that we have limited resources and so it’s not possible to have huge numbers of immigrants who will work hard but overall can’t support themselves without state supports.

Necro · 17-06-2021 3:21pm

Multiple off topic posts deleted. This is a discussion thread about multiculturalism in Ireland, please remain on topic or don't post here. Any questions PM me, don't respond to this on thread

MarkEadie · 17-06-2021 3:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd agree with that... in part. The problem is that the world has changed and moved away from many of the economic considerations of the past.

I was talking to the manager of our local Lidl, which is closing down for a week of renovations.. mostly so that they can install a number of automated checking stations. They're aiming to be more cost effective, but as a result, will be laying off 9 people who worked there part-time. And we're going to see a lot more of that in the future, as companies seek to become more efficient with the coming recession. Even without the recession, many businesses were struggling to remain profitable.. and will be seeking to lay off people.

The point that remains relevant for Ireland is how much employment will exist for low skilled labor in the immediate future, and even after that period, will the country return to needing such labor. It's unlikely that it will.

Another conversation I had recently was with my brother who lived in the UK for two decades, and we were talking about the Indian and Pakistani immigrants who came there over the decades. You'd see the Indians often opening up restaurants, and the Pakistanis opening shops. A generalization, but still quite accurate. They saw a need in the economy, and met the demands that existed.. but that demand is, and has been declining for some time now. Both due to technology, the internet, and also social changes in eating habits, along with the desire for a healthier lifestyle, which does open up new opportunities, but tends to close them for the unskilled.

When we look at Ireland, with it's current population, there isn't a huge demand for services provided by the unskilled. With technology, and modern management principles, it's relatively easy for one business to provide for a large area. Add in four or five competing businesses, and the area is saturated. It's highly questionable whether the population of Ireland would increase to provide a broader marketplace for these services, increasing demand.. especially since we're seeing an actual increase in poverty, and the costs of living for the average person, which cuts drastically into consumer spending power.

I can certainly understand your perspective. There are many migrants who want to work hard, raise a family, and their children will become educated, filling the gaps within the economy... however, we already have enough low skilled people to fill the employment needs for economic demands. It might be different (although I don't think it is.. except in the short term) if the Irish economy was booming, but even in the last decade, we've been seeing many Irish companies/businesses fail because their consumer base hasn't been enough to cover their costs, and need for profits... as their operating costs have continued to increase.

The question we need to ask is whether this is sustainable. Do we encourage immigration of people who, while having the best of intentions to work, are likely to become unemployed within a few years? Or is better to focus on those who are skilled/educated, who stand the best chance of being adaptable in a modern employment market?

Pigeonholing people into certain jobs due to their race is not accurate or fair. Just because someone is an indian or pakistani migrant doesn't mean they will be looking to open up a restaurant as their income. Unless you have the facts and figures on the amounts of people in certain jobs and future projections then your post is just very vague rambling and lacking in actual numbers. You should present facts and figures when making assertions.

On the point of jobs as I say there are many different kinds and if people need to make money they will do what they have to do to provide the best life they can for their kids. Pigeonholing them into one line of work isn't accurate or helpful. You have admitted paying upwards of 3k to attend "speed seduction bootcamps" which are about covertly hypnotising women into having sex. I think you said you attended three of these bootcamps. I know you've said that was a mistake you made as a youngster and I totally respect that, but im sure you weren't the only lad there paying 3k a pop. I'm not saying a migrant should set up seminars on attempting to covertly hypnotize women into having sex, but I'm just saying I wouldn't have even considered the possibility of teaching that as an income until I read that you'd attended them so it's not quite accurate to pigeonhole people into just one area of employment when there are many areas and possibilitys. There are also supports in place for unemployed people to upskill, gain employment and then of course they become a contributing tax payer to the system. Failing all that there are even more obscure methods of making an income, as your attendance at those speed seduction seminars shows.

17-06-2021 4:48pm

MarkEadie wrote: »

Pigeonholing people into certain jobs due to their race is not accurate or fair. Just because someone is an indian or pakistani migrant doesn't mean they will be looking to open up a restaurant as their income. Unless you have the facts and figures on the amounts of people in certain jobs and future projections then your post is just very vague rambling and lacking in actual numbers. You should present facts and figures when making assertions.

Yes, it's vague and full of generalisations. Doesn't mean it's wrong though. You see, I have little interest in researching in depth on such a topic, and your first sentence explains why. You chose to pick an example I made about two national groups who entered two particular industries to fullfill a need, but rather than recognise the main point, that the economy has shifted, you chose instead to seek an objection over race.

It wouldn't matter if I presented an in-depth analysis, referencing statistics, because you'd dismiss it, or simply ignore it so that you could latch on to something else. Usually a point that wasn't made. It's not like you haven't done so before.

Besides, in spite of all you've written, you haven't once countered anything I've written... You went off in different directions, but not dealing with what I wrote.

On the point of jobs as I say there are many different kinds and if people need to make money they will do what they have to do to provide the best life they can for their kids. Pigeonholing them into one line of work isn't accurate or helpful.

I didn't pigeonhole anyone into anything. For someone who want specifics, you're doing a rather inadequate job of dealing with what was actually written, as opposed to running off on a tangent about things that weren't made.

You have admitted paying upwards of 3k to attend "speed seduction bootcamps" which are about covertly hypnotising women into having sex.

You're delusional. Speed seducation is not about covertly hypnotising women into having sex... it's about a lot of utterly retarded notions, but that's not one of them. You might want to reread whatever post I made about it.. Also for context you should link the actual post, so that other posters can see how inaccurately you're representing what I wrote. (Just link the post to a word as opposed to the full link being displayed)

I think you said you attended three of these bootcamps. I know you've said that was a mistake you made as a youngster and I totally respect that, but im sure you weren't the only lad there paying 3k a pop.

I didn't pay 3k a pop. I'm not insane, and I definitely didn't have 3k to spend on an unaccreditated course when I was in my early 20s. If I said I spent 3k, it was likely over a decade of being interested in this stuff, and included travel expenses along with other costs.

I'm not saying a migrant should set up seminars on attempting to covertly hypnotize women into having sex, but I'm just saying I wouldn't have even considered the possibility of teaching that as an income until I read that you'd attended them so it's not quite accurate to pigeonhole people into just one area of employment when there are many areas and possibilitys. There are also supports in place for unemployed people to upskill, gain employment and then of course they become a contributing tax payer to the system. Failing all that there are even more obscure methods of making an income, as your attendance at those speed seduction seminars shows.

Ahh well... in spite of you using an incredibly bizarre example, trainer courses are difficult to organise and run (in order to be profitable), although many Indians already do them in the areas of management, train the trainer, accelerated learning etc. Besides, most of it has been shifting online where there is a greater degree of competition, but the operating costs decrease dramatically. Although the funny thing is that to do such a trainer course, the expectation would be that the trainer would be skilled/educated enough to offer something to their potential customers. Not a viable avenue for the unskilled.

As for upskill, and retaining... yes, there are such courses, although, if you read on their overall successes, there's a lot of criticism directed by employers and students alike. In that they're often out-dated, and lacking in practical value. All the same, these are funded by the taxpayer.. so, why should we be encouraging foreigners to come here, just so that we can pay for their education, and have no reliable way to benefit from that investment? Nor any guarantee that, by the time, they finish the courses that there will be employment for them.

I don't quite understand your logic. We should bring in unskilled/uneducated workers, for whom there are limited employment available for them. But that's okay! We can upskill/educate them, and while that's happening, the state will be required to support their lifestyles (and that of their family)... and they'll enter employment with qualifications of questionable value (assuming they pass, which isn't guaranteed). What is the benefit to Ireland? Why not skip all that by focusing instead on those who already have the skills/education to be employed, but also have the ability to find new work, should their initial positions become void?

<<<Note>>> A last point. I'm pretty sure it was you on the football booing thread that went on to make claims about other posts of mine. That I was intent on starting an anti-immigration party (Which I'm not). If that was you, stop it. Both this time (speed seducation), and that time (multiculturalism thread reference), you were inaccurate in your claims, and didn't represent fairly what I had written. Instead, you made your own vague claims, without providing context, and seeking to twist unrelated posts just to score some points. It's bad form, and rather dishonest.

Wibbs · 17-06-2021 5:12pm

Well that is bizarre to read, though sadly not a surprise. As we've seen - with a couple of notable and welcome exceptions of course - the pro multiculturalism side after running out of the thin gruel of exoticism, charity and the Irish were immigrants once then run to some of the wildest tangents possible, in nearly every case to try to discredit another poster's usually better or at least better formed argument. AKA I've little or no argument left, so therefore according to a made up history of stalking their posts for some chink in the armour another poster must have paid nine grand to hypnotise women. Apparently

Cordell · 17-06-2021 5:15pm

Just because someone is an indian or pakistani migrant doesn't mean they will be looking to open up a restaurant as their income

Of course. Restaurant owners are not highly skilled migrants hence they should have their residency status checked

18-06-2021 12:15am

We have a dropping birth replacement rate,a housing crisis where we pay more for smaller and smaller houses. We had a ridiculous scenario where our defence force personnel were told not to have children while new arrivals were being housed etc. Crazy stuff.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/arid-30870171.html

It really is as simple as we don't need more people and we need the hassle of integrating multiple cultures less and diametrically opposing cultures like we need a poke in the eye.

It's probably time someone started the conversation about Infrastructure, social cohesion, sustainability in terms of an optimal population for the island.

The solution could be as simple as issuing Limited numbers of work permits/residency visas annually etc. That's my 2 seconds of thought solution. There must be better, well thought out, ones out there among the politicians one would imagine....lol

Unlimited migration is a bad idea. The benefits of Limited numbers automatically resolves the multicultural issue without restricting an individual group or country. Small enough numbers will assimilate and not create enclaves.

Tell me how · 18-06-2021 3:10am

TomTomTim wrote: »

An act that had nothing to do with racism, is being spun as a racial issue that must be solved. This is the exact mindset that's running rampant in America, that will likely lead to their fall, yet we in Ireland ignore the potential damage of such beliefs, and run down the same road. What's clear from all of this framing is that certain groups are automatically believed to be racist, or have some racial issues, which means that they must atone for their sins, and submit themselves to the desires of political radicals for "acceptance".

You should tell them in America.

If it is running rampant, then police supporters and BLM advocates could probably have their attention focused elsewhere instead of calling for action and insisting there is no need for it.

What do you mean by the bit that will likely lead to their fall? Is the conservative (rather that progressive) ideal of restricting access to voting not more of a concern than the supposed encouragement of better engagement between different groups.

Your post has little basis in reality either in what is happening, or is likely to happen.

Mr.Menace · 18-06-2021 8:11am

randd1 wrote: »

There's another type of immigrant.

A neighbour down the road from us came over here about 20 years ago from the UK, an Indian chap and his family. Not particularly educated, and neither was his wife. They had 4 kids of schools going age.

Now they got a council house which some of the locals weren't happy about. Typical bloody immigrants getting everything talk around the area.

The father worked for years in a supermarket as he couldn't really get anywhere else due to a lack of qualifications. The mother didn't work.

The thing is though, while he worked whatever hours he could, without fail, the mother made sure her kids went to school. The kids mixed with locals no bother, and they were pleasant to talk to.

Roll on 20 years, the 4 kids are in decent well paying jobs, the wife works as a cleaner and father the works in a different shop, and they're part of the local furniture.

The point is sometimes immigrants who might not be skilled do come here with the intention of making the most of what little they have in order to give their kids something better.

Immigrants who want to come into this country? Yeah better that they're skilled, but far more important is the attitude to work hard, become a part of the community and guide their kids to do as best they can. Being skilled is secondary for me.

This was exactly my family, we came here 20 years ago with nothing from Africa, me and my sister both went to college my sister has a law degree and is also a graduate from kings Inn as well and now she has a great paying job from a well known company. I dropped out of college but I still managed to get a good paying job. And my little brother is currently studying chemistry in trinity and is working part time in a warehouse . My mother is working in a local charity shop. But the funny thing is that on here a lot of people don’t have a clue, yes there are obviously people who milk off the system and don’t contribute mainly first generation immigrants. But trust me most of the second generation go to college get a degree and get a high paying job, most of the 2nd generation immigrants i know all have degrees and masters, they all work in finance, tech, and medicine for big companies and are contributing to the economy. But I guess that’s not the narrative that people on this forum want to hear.

Fandymo · 18-06-2021 8:16am

Mr.Menace wrote: »

This was exactly my family, we came here 20 years ago with nothing from Africa, me and my sister both went to college my sister has a law degree and is also a graduate from kings Inn as well and now she has a great paying job from a well known company. I dropped out of college but I still managed to get a good paying job. And my little brother is currently studying chemistry in trinity and is working part time in a warehouse . My mother is working in a local charity shop. But the funny thing is that on here a lot of people don’t have a clue, yes there are obviously people who milk off the system and don’t contribute mainly first generation immigrants. But trust me most of the second generation go to college get a degree and get a high paying job, most of the 2nd generation immigrants i know all have degrees and masters, they all work in finance, tech, and medicine for big companies and are contributing to the economy. But I guess that’s not the narrative that people on this forum want to hear.

Are there any stats to show “most” 2nd generation immigrants have degrees and masters? Or is it anecdotal to your circle of friends? Most of my friends have degrees, but I don’t and an awful lot of acquaintances don’t either. Much more that I know don’t have a degree or masters.

TomTomTim · 18-06-2021 8:16am

Tell me how wrote: »

You should tell them in America.

If it is running rampant, then police supporters and BLM advocates could probably have their attention focused elsewhere instead of calling for action and insisting there is no need for it.

What do you mean by the bit that will likely lead to their fall? Is the conservative (rather that progressive) ideal of restricting access to voting not more of a concern than the supposed encouragement of better engagement between different groups.

Your post has little basis in reality either in what is happening, or is likely to happen.

If that's the case, you haven't made your case, you've simply jumped to a conclusion without evidence. I thought you were an intellectual, TMH, yet you're not being very scientific. It's also beyond reason, that you, a person whose rarely right about anything, would make a judgment about the future with such confidence. In regards to America's fall, if you don't think that the hyper tribalism that is running through America, will lead to nothing but a break down of their society, then there's little that I can do for you. Every nation that's went through an extreme Us v Them situation, as is happening now in America, has at best resulted in the lowering of quality of life, at worst a complete breakdown of society. Look at the Balkans, look at the Koreans, look up North, look at Libya, look at South Africa, look at the Soviet Union, look at Rwanda. Do you have any examples of such tribalism that didn't result in a great decline?

Mr.Menace · 18-06-2021 8:27am

Fandymo wrote: »

Are there any stats to show “most” 2nd generation immigrants have degrees and masters? Or is it anecdotal to your circle of friends? Most of my friends have degrees, but I don’t and an awful lot of acquaintances don’t either. Much more that I know don’t have a degree or masters.

I probably should have worded that better, but it would be most of my friend and acquaintances that would have degrees and master, they almost make me feel bad for not not having one, but I know hard work can compensate for that. I tried to find stats but I couldn’t, so my claim is not factual but it’s based on my experience.

Esho · 18-06-2021 8:35am

Mr.Menace wrote: »

I probably should have worded that better, but it would be most of my friend and acquaintances that would have degrees and master, they almost make me feel bad for not not having one, but I know hard work can compensate for that. I tried to find stats but I couldn’t, so my claim is not factual but it’s based on my experience.

Most of the posters on this forum don't get out much, I think. Opinions come from the news, and the more extreme cases. I
t's like believing everyone from Neilstown or Crumlin is a criminal.

Your second generation is now of working age, wonder when these attitudes will change.
Ireland provides excellent educational opportunities for everyone who doesn't fall through the sometimes wide cracks.

ThunbergsAreGo · 18-06-2021 8:35am

Mr.Menace wrote: »

This was exactly my family, we came here 20 years ago with nothing from Africa, me and my sister both went to college my sister has a law degree and is also a graduate from kings Inn as well and now she has a great paying job from a well known company. I dropped out of college but I still managed to get a good paying job. And my little brother is currently studying chemistry in trinity and is working part time in a warehouse . My mother is working in a local charity shop. But the funny thing is that on here a lot of people don’t have a clue, yes there are obviously people who milk off the system and don’t contribute mainly first generation immigrants. But trust me most of the second generation go to college get a degree and get a high paying job, most of the 2nd generation immigrants i know all have degrees and masters, they all work in finance, tech, and medicine for big companies and are contributing to the economy. But I guess that’s not the narrative that people on this forum want to hear.

Thats brilliant, you and your friends are credits to your parents

WrenBoy · 18-06-2021 8:38am

Mr.Menace wrote: »

This was exactly my family, we came here 20 years ago with nothing from Africa, me and my sister both went to college my sister has a law degree and is also a graduate from kings Inn as well and now she has a great paying job from a well known company. I dropped out of college but I still managed to get a good paying job. And my little brother is currently studying chemistry in trinity and is working part time in a warehouse . My mother is working in a local charity shop. But the funny thing is that on here a lot of people don’t have a clue, yes there are obviously people who milk off the system and don’t contribute mainly first generation immigrants. But trust me most of the second generation go to college get a degree and get a high paying job, most of the 2nd generation immigrants i know all have degrees and masters, they all work in finance, tech, and medicine for big companies and are contributing to the economy. But I guess that’s not the narrative that people on this forum want to hear.

Glad to hear it, sounds like you and your are flourishing with all those achievements I wish ye the best of luck going forward but whilst you and your family are enjoying these opportunities of studying in great colleges like Trinity and finding steady work we are all being told how awful and racist we are as a society. Not that any of that is your fault but we're a small country and many people are feeling left down by our public services such as in our health/ mental health sectors, housing, disability services etc while more and more is being funnelled into granting benefits to those who take advantage of our weak immigration system. What people on this forum want to hear is that Ireland takes in people who are genuine asylum seekers and immigrants who have the ability and desire to look after themselves, integrate into our society and be productive members of society, we already have plenty of those who only take.

18-06-2021 9:02am

Mr.Menace wrote: »

This was exactly my family, we came here 20 years ago with nothing from Africa, me and my sister both went to college my sister has a law degree and is also a graduate from kings Inn as well and now she has a great paying job from a well known company. I dropped out of college but I still managed to get a good paying job. And my little brother is currently studying chemistry in trinity and is working part time in a warehouse . My mother is working in a local charity shop. But the funny thing is that on here a lot of people don’t have a clue, yes there are obviously people who milk off the system and don’t contribute mainly first generation immigrants. But trust me most of the second generation go to college get a degree and get a high paying job, most of the 2nd generation immigrants i know all have degrees and masters, they all work in finance, tech, and medicine for big companies and are contributing to the economy. But I guess that’s not the narrative that people on this forum want to hear.

Then, you'd be guessing wrong, since nobody has been saying anything negative about 2nd gen people from immigrant families in regard to education and employment. Oh, there are issues with some cultural groups for integration, and the sense of belonging but I certainly haven't seen much criticism directed towards them, except where it relates to youth gangs, and crime.

So...

I'd be curious, though, as to how many of your friends remain in Ireland after graduation. After all, their parents chose Ireland to live in, their children didn't. How many would have left after graduation to live in their parents native country, or moved elsewhere like the US, or continental Europe?

18-06-2021 9:10am

Esho wrote: »

Most of the posters on this forum don't get out much,

I suppose you have some evidence for that assertion? I can think of 5-6 regular posters on this thread who have lived extensively abroad, before returning to Ireland... and I don't remember anything from the posters on this forum, showing that they don't get out much.

The thing is... I don't recall you challenging the posters views.. Just this vague nonsense. So, how about quoting peoples posts, and countering their views?

I think. Opinions come from the news, and the more extreme cases. I
t's like believing everyone from Neilstown or Crumlin is a criminal.

Again, that's your claim. I haven't seen such a claim from any poster.

What's with these claims of attitudes that weren't displayed? Vague assertions based on nothing.

18-06-2021 9:19am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Then, you'd be guessing wrong, since nobody has been saying anything negative about 2nd gen people from immigrant families in regard to education and employment. Oh, there are issues with some cultural groups for integration, and the sense of belonging but I certainly haven't seen much criticism directed towards them, except where it relates to youth gangs, and crime.

Yeah, except for all the posts stating the issues begin with second generation immigrants..........
Whatever suits your narrative at the time....

18-06-2021 9:22am

Mr.Menace wrote: »

I probably should have worded that better, but it would be most of my friend and acquaintances that would have degrees and master, they almost make me feel bad for not not having one, but I know hard work can compensate for that. I tried to find stats but I couldn’t, so my claim is not factual but it’s based on my experience.

You don't need to try to justify anything, certain people will find something else to try to justify their opinions. No doubt you have noticed that already......
Just be proud of your family's accomplishment, feck the begrudgers

18-06-2021 9:23am

TomTomTim wrote: »

If that's the case, you haven't made your case, you've simply jumped to a conclusion without evidence. I thought you were an intellectual, TMH, yet you're not being very scientific. It's also beyond reason, that you, a person whose rarely right about anything, would make a judgment about the future with such confidence. In regards to America's fall, if you don't think that the hyper tribalism that is running through America, will lead to nothing but a break down of their society, then there's little that I can do for you. Every nation that's went through an extreme Us v Them situation, as is happening now in America, has at best resulted in the lowering of quality of life, at worst a complete breakdown of society. Look at the Balkans, look at the Koreans, look up North, look at Libya, look at South Africa, look at the Soviet Union, look at Rwanda. Do you have any examples of such tribalism that didn't result in a great decline?

I think, for the rest of the world, the problem is that American race theory, and the response to their own problems is being exported to the rest of us, irrespective of the differences in history and social consciousness. Like the claims of systematic racism that do exist in the US, but are claimed (and accepted without real examination) about European nations, but also applied to all racial groups (that are not White). There's a movement to take all the negatives that exists within the US, and transplant them to the rest of the Western world, and using the US as evidence that these negatives are universal (in western natioins... nobody cares about non-white nations).

I would agree that the US will tear itself apart. Woke/PC culture, race theory, activism of all types is aimed at dividing society rather than seeking resolutions that brings society together. It's about forcing people to accept change rather than including the perceived opposition in the determination of a solution. The perceived opposition are the enemy and must be put down.. and anyone who doesn't agree 100% is the enemy. No middle ground. You're a racist or you're not. Nuance is dead. And so, yes, I do agree that the US is facing a coming downfall, because it is a melting pot of cultures and conflicting views without any reasonable system to mediate between groups.

The problem for the rest of us is that as White people, we are similarly judged as being guilty of what happened in the US, and must be punished for it. Which means that Western nations should support other racial groups, elevating them beyond equality, removing anything that sought to present equality as the end goal.. while reinforcing divisions. Which will, naturally, lead to bitterness and anger by those white people who feel hard done by.

18-06-2021 9:25am

bubblypop wrote: »

Yeah, except for all the posts stating the issues begin with second generation immigrants..........
Whatever suits your narrative at the time....

Bubbly, look at my post. I said that there were some issues with 2nd gen, and that they are spoken about... but the other poster was very clear as to what they referred to, namely education and employment... while claiming a narrative that didn't exist.

I appreciate that you're not very good at recognising nuance, but this shouldn't be too hard for you to notice.

DeadHand · 18-06-2021 9:31am

Mr.Menace wrote: »

I probably should have worded that better, but it would be most of my friend and acquaintances that would have degrees and master, they almost make me feel bad for not not having one, but I know hard work can compensate for that. I tried to find stats but I couldn’t, so my claim is not factual but it’s based on my experience.

Hey, never feel inferior for lacking a third level qualification. It isn’t necessary for success and happiness. You can go back to it at any time, education is a lifelong thing now. You seem like a fine lad/lass. Best of luck to you!

Vanishingly few have a problem with immigration per se and with immigrants generally as individuals.

The concerns people have expressed on this thread are about mass, transformative immigration over a short space of time and the ideology of multiculturalism that justifies and defends this recklessness.

These processes have already destabilised other European countries to the point where many are reversing course desperately. The first murmurs of that inevitable destabilisation are also appearing here in Ireland. However, we are not just remaining on course but accelerating into it.

It’s a question of scale. Immigration managed wisely would see new arrivals land in modest numbers and assimilate. Instead, mass immigration has led to the establishment of parallel societies within Europe which, because of inherent human tribalism and the demands of certain belief systems, will compete with the native society for dominance and influence as well as finite space and resources.

Hence, blood and armies on the streets.

And who benefits from these processes, accepting the resulting carnage in the comfort of knowing they and those in their immediate circle will not suffer directly? Big business.

This titanic, unprecedented flow of humanity swells both European labour pools and markets. Corporatists achieve the twin dreams of ever weaker, cheaper labour and ever multiplying consumers.

Hilariously, the European Left Wing has generally been tricked by corporate interests into fanatical support of grotesquely capitalistic processes. Many been led around by their own sense of moral superiority and the belief they are resisting largely imaginary racism.

For European Federalists, European societies divided and demoralised by mass immigration and multiculturalism make for easier entities to dominate, just as they are easier for Corporatists to exploit.

Islamists piggyback on these processes to plant and cultivate their ideology deep within the European heartlands that Islam could not penetrate it all its blood soaked history up to this point.

There are many beneficiaries among the elite, and many more victims among the ordinary.

The defenders of mass immigration/multiculturalism will often seek to personalise and/or racialise these issues as it’s one of their few paths to “winning the argument” given the facts on the ground in Europe. It’s an emotive approach designed to silence their perceived opposition.

It’s not about race, it’s about culture.

It’s not about individuals, it’s about processes.

18-06-2021 9:39am

Mr.Menace wrote: »

I probably should have worded that better, but it would be most of my friend and acquaintances that would have degrees and master, they almost make me feel bad for not not having one, but I know hard work can compensate for that. I tried to find stats but I couldn’t, so my claim is not factual but it’s based on my experience.

Thanks for your input and fair play to you and your family.

Do you think Ireland is a racist country, and have you experienced much, if any, racism whilst here?

18-06-2021 9:43am

bubblypop wrote: »

You don't need to try to justify anything, certain people will find something else to try to justify their opinions. No doubt you have noticed that already......
Just be proud of your family's accomplishment, feck the begrudgers

You need justify claims made as if they are factual. No one is begrudging him for asking for evidence of his claims. Credit to the poster for saying that he couldn't find the evidence and saying it was his experience.

18-06-2021 9:52am

DeadHand wrote: »

Hey, never feel inferior for lacking a third level qualification. It isn’t necessary for success and happiness. You can go back to it at any time, education is a lifelong thing now. You seem like a fine lad/lass. Best of luck to you!

Vanishingly few have a problem with immigration per se and with immigrants generally as individuals.

The concerns people have expressed on this thread are about mass, transformative immigration over a short space of time and the ideology of multiculturalism that justifies and defends this recklessness.

These processes have already destabilised other European countries to the point where many are reversing course desperately. The first murmurs of that inevitable destabilisation are also appearing here in Ireland. However, we are not just remaining on course but accelerating into it.

It’s a question of scale. Immigration managed wisely would see new arrivals land in modest numbers and assimilate. Instead, mass immigration has led to the establishment of parallel societies within Europe which, because of inherent human tribalism and the demands of certain belief systems, will compete with the native society for dominance and influence as well as finite space and resources.

Hence, blood and armies on the streets.

And who benefits from these processes, accepting the resulting carnage in the comfort of knowing they and those in their immediate circle will not suffer directly? Big business.

This titanic, unprecedented flow of humanity swells both European labour pools and markets. Corporatists achieve the twin dreams of ever weaker, cheaper labour and ever multiplying consumers.

Hilariously, the European Left Wing has generally been tricked by corporate interests into fanatical support of grotesquely capitalistic processes. Many been led around by their own sense of moral superiority and the belief they are resisting largely imaginary racism.

For European Federalists, European societies divided and demoralised by mass immigration and multiculturalism make for easier entities to dominate, just as they are easier for Corporatists to exploit.

Islamists piggyback on these processes to plant and cultivate their ideology deep within the European heartlands that Islam could not penetrate it all its blood soaked history up to this point.

There are many beneficiaries among the elite, and many more victims among the ordinary.

The defenders of mass immigration/multiculturalism will often seek to personalise and/or racialise these issues as it’s one of their few paths to “winning the argument” given the facts on the ground in Europe. It’s an emotive approach designed to silence their perceived opposition.

It’s not about race, it’s about culture.

It’s not about individuals, it’s about processes.

A fantastic post.

Wibbs · 18-06-2021 11:44am

Deleted User wrote: »

I think, for the rest of the world, the problem is that American race theory, and the response to their own problems is being exported to the rest of us, irrespective of the differences in history and social consciousness. Like the claims of systematic racism that do exist in the US, but are claimed (and accepted without real examination) about European nations, but also applied to all racial groups (that are not White). There's a movement to take all the negatives that exists within the US, and transplant them to the rest of the Western world, and using the US as evidence that these negatives are universal (in western natioins... nobody cares about non-white nations).

True, though racism/prejudice towards the different exists pretty much everywhere you find large enough groups of different cultures, creeds or colours living in a dominant culture that's different to them. America is just a more public and extreme Western example. If you're Black or Brown in Germany, Spain, France, Britain and so on it's pretty much a solid given that you will have experienced it. I'm certainly no denier of racism. The degree can vary of course and some like the US are more systemic. Ireland would be down the list of such things, but in many ways we're still in the early stages of multiculturalism, but we're already seeing the emergence of race baiters in the media, social media and politics on both sides egging it on.

machaseh · 18-06-2021 12:16pm

Multiculturalism in Ireland. I think I can say something about that. I am mixed Dutch and Brazilian, and while I am white (and born and raised in the Netherlands) many people think I am a Brazilian when they first see me. This despite the fact that I have never even lived in Brazil and can only speak the language with a thick accent and grammatical mistakes.

Some things I've heard from Irish people.

'If you want to smoke weed in your house go back to Brazil ! ' I am not even from there...?
After 2 pints in the pub 'I am cutting you off get out' . I was not making any noise or anything at all and it were my first pints for the friday, I was just sitting at the bar having post work pints by me lonesome as I didnt feel like going anywhere.
Me sitting in the park on my little mat which happens to have a Brazil flag on it as I bought a souvenir when on vacation in Brazil: 'Oh get back here [name of child], look he has a Brazil flag come on now ! ' The child had ran towards me out of curiosity...
Irish family with a stroller walking past one of them phone shops near parnell sq: 'DON'T RUN IN THERE RORY ! THEY'LL ROB YOU BLIND !'
On Halloween, seeing children walk through the streets to do Trick or Treat: 'DON'T GO THERE, THATS WHERE THEM FOREIGNERS LIVE !'

I all just find it very funny seeing as I have a higher education and wage level than most Irish people lol. I also find it curious how a people group that cannot even speak their OWN native language properly can be so xenophobic. If I were Irish I'd be super ashamed and I'd be spending my time learning the Irish language rather than hurling xenophobic comments towards strangers.

Cordell · 18-06-2021 12:34pm

omg poor you.

18-06-2021 12:51pm

Wibbs wrote: »

True, though racism/prejudice towards the different exists pretty much everywhere you find large enough groups of different cultures, creeds or colours living in a dominant culture that's different to them. America is just a more public and extreme Western example. If you're Black or Brown in Germany, Spain, France, Britain and so on it's pretty much a solid given that you will have experienced it. I'm certainly no denier of racism. The degree can vary of course and some like the US are more systemic. Ireland would be down the list of such things, but in many ways we're still in the early stages of multiculturalism, but we're already seeing the emergence of race baiters in the media, social media and politics on both sides egging it on.

Neither would I be a denier of racism, or that it exists everywhere. Which it does. I'm skeptical of this belief that it can be "defeated" or destroyed in society, but I do believe it can be minimized in society. Social conditioning, and laws can be applied to encourage that racism remains unacceptable within society, and that there will be social censure against those who express such sentiments. The difference is in the application of those protections/attitudes, and the expectation of what comes after. In the US, the expectation is of preferential treatment for disadvantaged groups, which is being imported into Europe now. Previously, in Europe the expectation was an equal society where no racial group was held above another one.

Now, in practical terms, Europe has failed to bring about equality, although I do think they've gotten the closest of all involved. Certain national groups, either due to history or social attitudes, have their inherent degrees of racism, such as the French towards Algerians.. but in the main, the direction of European societies was to focus on creating an equal society, where everyone was protected. Alas, I see that disappearing, as people embrace the divisive attitudes coming from the US.

What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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