Formula 1 2021 - General Discussion Thread (Read 1st post rules)

quokula · 07-06-2021 11:20PM

Harika wrote: »

On the Bottas struggle.
Funny how the tides turn. Two races ago, he did everything perfect for Mercedes. Monaco and Baku now nowhere to be seen. As in Imola.
He won´t be replaced mid season, that´s for sure.
Next year Mercedes might want to look into their talent pool and see if they want to move one of their juniors up.
Perez on the on the hand came alive

I wouldn’t say it’s entirely accurate to say Bottas was nowhere in Monaco and Baku. In Monaco he was very comfortably the better Mercedes driver and he easily outclassed Hamilton, only for the team to cost him at the pit stop. At Baku he was slow of course, but he did actually beat Hamilton again by making fewer mistakes.

He was completely compromised at Baku by the team deciding to fit a barn door to his rear wing to maximise the tow he would give Lewis in qualifying, without him getting to do a proper qualifying run of his own after his tow-truck lap.

Obviously he’s a poor driver as he has been for years, but there’s been some mitigating circumstances for those bad results of late, I don’t think it’s anything out of character compared to previous seasons.

07-06-2021 11:48PM

Glico Man wrote: »

Surely at least the Spanish GP 2016 when Rosberg and Hamilton took each other out?

TheQ_Man wrote: »

Austria 2018 was the last time (Double retirement). Maybe 2012 was when the 2 Merc’s last finished outside the points having done the full race?

Could be alright. Didn't have the full ring of truth to it hence me prefacing it. :P May well have said "Both Mercedes finished outside the points" which for the top 4 teams would be very rare I suppose.:o

El_Duderino 09 · 08-06-2021 08:11AM

quokula wrote: »

I wouldn’t say it’s entirely accurate to say Bottas was nowhere in Monaco and Baku. In Monaco he was very comfortably the better Mercedes driver and he easily outclassed Hamilton, only for the team to cost him at the pit stop. At Baku he was slow of course, but he did actually beat Hamilton again by making fewer mistakes.

He was completely compromised at Baku by the team deciding to fit a barn door to his rear wing to maximise the tow he would give Lewis in qualifying, without him getting to do a proper qualifying run of his own after his tow-truck lap.

Obviously he’s a poor driver as he has been for years, but there’s been some mitigating circumstances for those bad results of late, I don’t think it’s anything out of character compared to previous seasons.

Bottas' Monaco drive was absolutely not terrible, as you said. Incredible that Monaco has been misremembered as a terrible race for Bottas after only 2 weeks.

But is that true about his rear wing? Was it really done to maximise Lewis' tow? That pretty shocking treatment for a driver who is notionally on equal status. Couldn't they strip some down force out of the wing or was it an entirely higher downforce wing which they couldn't change after quali?

quokula · 08-06-2021 02:07PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Bottas' Monaco drive was absolutely not terrible, as you said. Incredible that Monaco has been misremembered as a terrible race for Bottas after only 2 weeks.

But is that true about his rear wing? Was it really done to maximise Lewis' tow? That pretty shocking treatment for a driver who is notionally on equal status. Couldn't they strip some down force out of the wing or was it an entirely higher downforce wing which they couldn't change after quali?

They won't admit it of course and the UK media never question Mercedes' "equal treatment", but his wing was visibly much thicker than anyone else's, and it would be a pretty odd decision for Mercedes to go in such a drastically different downforce direction to everyone else, and to only do it with one of their cars.

Simple physics dictates that Bottas' larger wing would give a much stronger tow, and of course the team very blatantly choreographed the positions of the two drivers to maximise that tow in qualifying.

Without the red flag, Valterri might have had an opportunity to do a qualifying lap of his own and started slightly further up, but given that he didn't, and given the wing's effect on straight line speed destroyed his ability to overtake, it's not surprising that he couldn't move forward in the race.

TheQ_Man · 08-06-2021 02:31PM

Gaoth Laidir · 08-06-2021 02:50PM

Toto said that this week it was Lewis' turn to choose whether to go out first or second in quali. He chose second, behind Bottas. Apparently it'll be Bottas' choice next time and presumably it was last time too, though I don't remember ever seeing Lewis giving him a tow every second race.

It's more convenient to just bash Bottas again and put it down to being completely his own fault. The same people were notably quiet after he outqualified Lewis in Monaco and Portugal, Abu Dhabi, Sakhir, ...).

El_Duderino 09 · 08-06-2021 03:40PM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Toto said that this week it was Lewis' turn to choose whether to go out first or second in quali. He chose second, behind Bottas. Apparently it'll be Bottas' choice next time and presumably it was last time too, though I don't remember ever seeing Lewis giving him a tow every second race.

It's more convenient to just bash Bottas again and put it down to being completely his own fault. The same people were notably quiet after he outqualified Lewis in Monaco and Portugal, Abu Dhabi, Sakhir, ...).

The tow probably wouldn't be any advantage in most races (E.g. the last race in Monaco). Finding clear air is the biggest problem in most races. It's rare that the tow is useful. Baku is the race where the tow has clearest advantage. Teams often try it in Monza and sometimes end up ballsing it up.

But i would be very surprised if Hamilton actually sacrifices his quali in Monza to give Bottas a tow. It should be 50:50 but I would bet the house that it will be Botas "turn" to give the tow at any race where it makes a difference.

quokula · 08-06-2021 04:38PM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Toto said that this week it was Lewis' turn to choose whether to go out first or second in quali. He chose second, behind Bottas. Apparently it'll be Bottas' choice next time and presumably it was last time too, though I don't remember ever seeing Lewis giving him a tow every second race.

They've been rolling out that line for years. On most tracks the tow makes no difference and they don't follow eachother closely because it just hurts downforce. On the rare tracks where tow has a big effect, such as Baku or Monza, it always coincidentally happens to be Lewis' "turn" that week.

quokula · 08-06-2021 04:42PM

Love this

Adamocovic · 08-06-2021 09:41PM

quokula wrote: »

Love this

Just seeing all the drivers congratulating Seb and hearing from them shows how much they respect him.

I won't lie, when he first broke out I thought he was cocky and wasn't the biggest fan, but turned into one as the years went by.

Nice to see him enjoying himself.
Hope last two races weren't just two blips and he can continue to score points this season regularly, rather than fall back to the 11-15th positions.

eviltimeban · 09-06-2021 08:27AM

Like anyone dominating, it got a bit tiring after a while, and fans began to resent "the finger" every time Vettel won. Remember the 2014 testing, when he was being booed by the spectators, and when the car had problems they cheered?

But everyone likes an underdog, and his experience through the Ferrari mill endeared him to fans again. That and the fact that he is actually a funny and self-deprecating kind of guy. I think many fans would be happy to see "the finger" again.

Above video shows that Mick is a classy guy.

On a related and unrelated note, maybe this is how they'll get rid of Mazepin! https://www.planetf1.com/news/nikita-mazepin-military-service/

flazio · 09-06-2021 11:50AM

Team Principal Simon Roberts leaving Williams.

https://straighttothegrid.com/simon-roberts-announces-departure-from-williams-team/

Not quite seeing the McLaren esque style recovery from Williams are we?

El_Duderino 09 · 09-06-2021 01:00PM

eviltimeban wrote: »

Like anyone dominating, it got a bit tiring after a while, and fans began to resent "the finger" every time Vettel won. Remember the 2014 testing, when he was being booed by the spectators, and when the car had problems they cheered?

But everyone likes an underdog, and his experience through the Ferrari mill endeared him to fans again. That and the fact that he is actually a funny and self-deprecating kind of guy. I think many fans would be happy to see "the finger" again.

...

Yeah I was always a fan of Seb and I'd say he's one of the drivers who would be good conversation and one of the few you's actually want to hang out with. But I think even his biggest fan had difficulty reconciling "Multi 21" with Seb being a good guy. But, people can do contradictory things. I'd say even the harshest critic of "the finger" would be happy to see it once more given his poor form over the last few years.

El_Duderino 09 · 09-06-2021 01:04PM

flazio wrote: »

Team Principal Simon Roberts leaving Williams.

https://straighttothegrid.com/simon-roberts-announces-departure-from-williams-team/

Not quite seeing the McLaren esque style recovery from Williams are we?

Oh i think any kind of recovery would take time. The team was only taken over at the end of last season so this year's car was already started. Next year is the rule change so I would expect them to focus on next year, not this year.

Something that I overlooked this weekend was that Schumacher finished 13th in Baku so Haas moved ahead of Williams in the championship. They'll be delighted with that given they were pretty clear that they didn't develop the car for this year

BrentMused · 09-06-2021 01:10PM

Can anyone recommend some good F1 books please?

Mainly I'm looking for something with as much juicy behind the scenes insight as possible :pac:

I recently read Jenson Button's 2017 autobiography. Really enjoyed it especially detailing how he got the Williams drive for his F1 debut and his dealings with Ralf Schumacher, and also his time with Lewis at McLaren, but felt he held a lot back. That's just his character I suppose, he's not the type that will be revealing much.

I've been told Mark Webber's autobiography shares a lot about his battles with Vettel and Red Bull politics?

Dont be at yourself · 09-06-2021 02:15PM

No Angel, a biography on Bernie, is a great behind-the-scenes read, bringing us right up through the history of involvement in the sport.

Not a book, but the Beyond the Grid podcast series also has some incredible episodes, particularly when they have drivers from the 70s and 80s.

Bigus · 09-06-2021 02:19PM

Race without end , about early Jordan was good at the time , I don’t know how it’s aged.

Harika · 09-06-2021 02:25PM

Cannot recommend the Ross brawn book

Lawlesz · 09-06-2021 03:08PM

BrentMused wrote: »

Can anyone recommend some good F1 books please?

Mainly I'm looking for something with as much juicy behind the scenes insight as possible :pac:

I recently read Jenson Button's 2017 autobiography. Really enjoyed it especially detailing how he got the Williams drive for his F1 debut and his dealings with Ralf Schumacher, and also his time with Lewis at McLaren, but felt he held a lot back. That's just his character I suppose, he's not the type that will be revealing much.

I've been told Mark Webber's autobiography shares a lot about his battles with Vettel and Red Bull politics?

For the behind the scenes stuff, there's a couple of books written by a former Benetton mechanic, I think his name is Steve Machett. His first book was a season diary, I think 1994,and his second was more of a run down on his career.

Another by Mark Priestley, a former McLaren mechanic. It's been a while but I think Machetts was a more serious effort whereas Priestleys contained a lot of after hours stories with Kimi and DC :pac:

Eddie Jordan's one is good too, and probably the best I've read was Damon Hills, think it was called Watching the Wheels, very honest. I had no idea how hard he had to work to get to f1 and then the confidence issues and self doubt he had once he got there. Very honest and actually made me quite like him after 20-something years of indifference to him.

namloc1980 · 10-06-2021 12:18PM

Love this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tvcf_pgBBA

BrentMused · 10-06-2021 02:49PM

The Russian F1 commentator, Alexey Popov, is pretty close to Bottas and is reporting that he is increasingly feeling like an outcast at Mercedes.

Ignore the imperfect translation as it's translated from a Russian article about Popov stating the below on a podcast:

The wing is not right, the tires cannot warm up, there is no trust in the chassis. He even began to hint that it might be necessary to change the chassis. But Toto said, “No, no. Lewis is faster because he believes more in the car, even if it's weak. "

Here, in general, they began to laugh at Wolf directly. And it’s really very funny that after Monaco, the first thing he said was that Bottas did not get up at the pit stop and therefore the mechanics were chamfering from the nut. Then it turned out that he got up almost better than all the other riders, turned out to be one of the most accurate. But this is not so bad.

When Hamilton missed [ at the restart ], Toto said , “No, no, it's not a mistake. He was forced by Perez, who began to shift towards him. Lewis was forced to hijack the car, so he accidentally pressed the button. " Everyone has already begun to laugh at this.

Everyone is funny, but Bottas is not, because he really feels like an outcast in the team more and more. Whatever he did, it was his fault. If everything goes well, it is, of course, thanks to the team. If it’s bad, it means that Valtteri couldn’t."

El_Duderino 09 · 10-06-2021 03:18PM

BrentMused wrote: »

The Russian F1 commentator, Alexey Popov, is pretty close to Bottas and is reporting that he is increasingly feeling like an outcast at Mercedes.

Ignore the imperfect translation as it's translated from a Russian article about Popov stating the below on a podcast:

That could be a pretty accurate reading of the situation.

Wolff went too far out of his way to pretend Lewis didn't make a mistake on the Baku restart. It was just a small mistake but it contrasted with the way he said Bottas contributed to the wheel nut mistake in Monaco.

If there's that kind of double think going on then it could be a pretty uncomfortable work environment for Bottas.

Frank Bullitt · 10-06-2021 03:22PM

If you were Bottas, you would have to be looking elsewhere now.

flazio · 10-06-2021 03:40PM

I thought he might have been top of Aston Martins hit list if it looked like Vettel wouldn't come back next year but things are looking up for him so I reckon he's staying.
Can't see him going to the likes of Sauber-Alfa Romeo or Williams just in order to stay in Formula 1. I wouldn't rule out a move to Formula E. Susie Wolff's Venturi team most likely.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-06-2021 03:47PM

flazio wrote: »

I thought he might have been top of Aston Martins hit list if it looked like Vettel wouldn't come back next year but things are looking up for him so I reckon he's staying.
Can't see him going to the likes of Sauber-Alfa Romeo or Williams just in order to stay in Formula 1. I wouldn't rule out a move to Formula E. Susie Wolff's Venturi team most likely.

I don't pretend to have a clue what he will do (assuming he is replaced next year). He might be tempted to go to Williams as part of the Williams resurgence under the new ownership. They have Mercedes engines which means that if they can get the chassis in order they could make steps forward.

Anywhere he goes would be a step backward. The only way he could look at it as a promotion is to be the explicit no.1 at a smaller team.

Frank Bullitt · 10-06-2021 06:03PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't pretend to have a clue what he will do (assuming he is replaced next year). He might be tempted to go to Williams as part of the Williams resurgence under the new ownership. They have Mercedes engines which means that if they can get the chassis in order they could make steps forward.

Anywhere he goes would be a step backward. The only way he could look at it as a promotion is to be the explicit no.1 at a smaller team.

To him though, if he was treated equally and not thrown under the bus by his boss, it might be a step forward.

eviltimeban · 11-06-2021 09:04AM

That's the problem though, in Bottas' mind he is equal. He's the only one who can't see that he's not.

El_Duderino 09 · 11-06-2021 09:19AM

eviltimeban wrote: »

That's the problem though, in Bottas' mind he is equal. He's the only one who can't see that he's not.

I really doubt that's true. I'd say he's acutely aware of the situation.

El_Duderino 09 · 11-06-2021 09:23AM

Frank Bullitt wrote: »

To him though, if he was treated equally and not thrown under the bus by his boss, it might be a step forward.

Ah no. Moving to anywhere, from Mercedes, is a step backwards (possible exception of Red Bull this year). He has had the best car (by some margin) for the last few years. Anywhere else would be a step backwards from that situation, particularly when you look at the available seats. He could challenge for wins over the last few years and none of the available seats will afford him that opportunity.

Where are the available seats for next year? Haas, Alfa, Williams, They're all a step back unless you view explicit no.1 status as a promotion.

Vicxas · 11-06-2021 12:51PM

Im assuming its gonna be some time before we see any feedback on Pirelli's performance last weekend

Formula 1 2021 - General Discussion Thread (Read 1st post rules)

Comments