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All Homes to be re-valued for Property Tax in November 2021

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    #152
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Augeo wrote: »
    Presumably folk with "forever homes" don't pay property tax?

    No renters pay property tax.


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    #153
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,086 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Augeo wrote: »
    Presumably folk with "forever homes" don't pay property tax?

    The landlords of social housing pay the LPT, like all landlords.


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    #154
    Living Off The Splash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Living Off The Splash


    Draco wrote: »
    Think of the nice new build you could get if you sold you €1m+ home. None of those maintenance issues plus you'd probably have cash left over to have an even nicer retirement.

    This is usually the recommendation..... If you cannot afford it...then sell it. Or, move aside and let someone younger with a young family buy it....etc.

    I have lived in this house for 27 years. Love the area. Lots of happy memories.....close to amenities.

    I don't want to sell it. Each year my property tax is being paid from my accumulated savings not from new income. (already taxed accumulated savings).

    Because I bought well back in the 1990's I feel that I am paying a living Capital Gains Tax rather than a Capital Gains Tax on selling. (which my children will have to pay anyway when we die).

    My tax is based on nothing more than the vale of my house. It should be assessed of square footage.


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    #155
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Another tax increase for the state's coffers to make up for unrelated shortfalls elsewhere. Who would have guessed.


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    #156
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,523 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    L1011 wrote: »
    No renters pay property tax.

    My experience of many years of renting has me greatly amused by the property tax debate.

    The rent on our apartment in Dublin went up by several hundred quid A MONTH and the LL pumped it another good bit when we moved out. Nobody important really cared because renters are likely foreign / not registered to vote in the area they live / 2nd class citizens.

    Now the LPT gets reviewed once in a decade and if it goes up by 50 quid A YEAR it has political parties pissing their pants.:pac::pac::pac:


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    #157
    spaceHopper
    Registered Users Posts: 3,967 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    Manach wrote: »
    Another tax increase for the state's coffers to make up for unrelated shortfalls elsewhere. Who would have guessed.

    And if you rent from a small time LL they pay tax here on rental income but if you rent from a German pension fund they pay no tax. Sound fair!


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    #158
    Murph85
    Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Augeo wrote: »
    Presumably folk with "forever homes" don't pay property tax?

    Of course not, free rents, no lpt, no management fees...


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    #159
    C14N
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    spaceHopper wrote: »
    And if you rent from a small time LL they pay tax here on rental income but if you rent from a German pension fund they pay no tax. Sound fair!

    Do property taxes not apply to all residential properties? I was under the impression that they did. This is a huge mistake on the part of the government if not.


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    #160
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I wish I was in a position to be charged a property tax.


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    #161
    coolshannagh28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    Manach wrote: »
    Another tax increase for the state's coffers to make up for unrelated shortfalls elsewhere. Who would have guessed.

    While I would have no objection in principle to property tax , I would imagine that the govt increasing taxation on property, after the debacle of the untaxed vulture funds driving buyers out of the market, could be the straw that breaks the camels back.
    It seems to be very poorly timed and could be an indication of the fiscal pressure that is coming to bear.


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    #162
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    My experience of many years of renting has me greatly amused by the property tax debate.

    The rent on our apartment in Dublin went up by several hundred quid A MONTH and the LL pumped it another good bit when we moved out. Nobody important really cared because renters are likely foreign / not registered to vote in the area they live / 2nd class citizens.

    Now the LPT gets reviewed once in a decade and if it goes up by 50 quid A YEAR it has political parties pissing their pants.:pac::pac::pac:
    Well, it's really opposition politicians, looking for opportunities and still trying to persuade people that abolishing anything that is not VAT, corporation or income tax is actually a smart idea.


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    #163
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    C14N wrote: »
    Do property taxes not apply to all residential properties? I was under the impression that they did. This is a huge mistake on the part of the government if not.

    They apply to all properties not rented from a local authority (because there is no point in the admin effort of an LA paying themselves). The poster you are quoting is talking about income tax (and oversimplifying it too)


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    #164
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,523 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Well, it's really opposition politicians, looking for opportunities and still trying to persuade people that abolishing anything that is not VAT, corporation or income tax is actually a smart idea.

    I think FG ducked it a few times too over the last few years.


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    #165
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    spaceHopper wrote: »
    And if you rent from a small time LL they pay tax here on rental income but if you rent from a German pension fund they pay no tax. Sound fair!

    Can you set out how they pay no tax?

    Thanks


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    #166
    hots
    Registered Users Posts: 5,200 ✭✭✭hots


    Isn't this a case of updating the data to get everyone in the right bands, and then the bands being changed that the amount paid is less for everyone?


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    #167
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    I think FG ducked it a few times too over the last few years.
    Yeah, it's been a while coming, the positive here is the rolling in of the post-2013 houses.


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    #168
    Amadan Dubh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    My experience of many years of renting has me greatly amused by the property tax debate.

    The rent on our apartment in Dublin went up by several hundred quid A MONTH and the LL pumped it another good bit when we moved out. Nobody important really cared because renters are likely foreign / not registered to vote in the area they live / 2nd class citizens.

    Now the LPT gets reviewed once in a decade and if it goes up by 50 quid A YEAR it has political parties pissing their pants.:pac::pac::pac:

    This exactly.

    It's laughable that the media are trying to put out stories of "winners and losers" in the LPT reform and a Q&A as to how it applies as if it is such a big deal.

    €100 euro per year for one third of people - PER YEAR! Meanwhile, 60% won't pay anything additional! Our rent as gone up 100euro per month average each of the last four years to put this in context. It's pathetic and embarrassing that people would even worry about the LPT potential increases.


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    #169
    C14N
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    hots wrote: »
    Isn't this a case of updating the data to get everyone in the right bands, and then the bands being changed that the amount paid is less for everyone?

    Yes, from what I've read it's mostly just a re-shuffling of the property taxes so that houses are now assessed at more up-to-date values. The main source of new revenue on this seems to be that houses built 2013 or later were previously exempt from paying at all, and now they won't be. For most everyone else (except those with properties over €1m or so), it seems like the value will go up, but the rates will go down to compensate.


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    #170
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,086 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Amadan Dubh wrote: »
    This exactly.

    It's laughable that the media are trying to put out stories of "winners and losers" in the LPT reform and a Q&A as to how it applies as if it is such a big deal.

    €100 euro per year for one third of people - PER YEAR! Meanwhile, 60% won't pay anything additional! Our rent as gone up 100euro per month average each of the last four years to put this in context. It's pathetic and embarrassing that people would even worry about the LPT potential increases.


    Yes, the changes are utterly insignificant, in comparison with the public finances.

    An extra 60m-70m revenue is tiny, given a 17bn deficit.

    It gets a lot of news coverage because:
    • it is a salient tax
    • Irish people are obsessed with houses


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    #171
    Jerry Attrick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Jerry Attrick


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Why doesn’t the government tax the rental income of investment properties owned by cuckoo funds.

    You know, make the rich pay some tax?

    Might I suggest that in the next election you vote for a party that supports that kind of populist nonsense?

    Then, if enough people follow your lead, you'll find out why.


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    #172
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,086 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Manach wrote: »
    Another tax increase for the state's coffers to make up for unrelated shortfalls elsewhere. Who would have guessed.

    Taxes have held up fairly well during COVID.

    It's the expenditure that has massively increased.


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    #173
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,523 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    Living Off The Splash wrote: »
    This is usually the recommendation..... If you cannot afford it...then sell it. Or, move aside and let someone younger with a young family buy it....etc.

    I have lived in this house for 27 years. Love the area. Lots of happy memories.....close to amenities.

    I don't want to sell it. Each year my property tax is being paid from my accumulated savings not from new income. (already taxed accumulated savings).

    Because I bought well back in the 1990's I feel that I am paying a living Capital Gains Tax rather than a Capital Gains Tax on selling. (which my children will have to pay anyway when we die).

    My tax is based on nothing more than the vale of my house. It should be assessed of square footage.

    Get some good advice.

    You are probably sitting in a million quids worth of house. A child can inherit 335,000 from a parent tax free, if you have a few kids share it the tax will be very little.


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    #174
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,086 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Murph85 wrote: »
    Of course not, free rents, no lpt, no management fees...

    LPT is paid on social housing, subject to the existing exemptions.


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    #175
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,086 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    coolshannagh28 wrote: »
    While I would have no objection in principle to property tax , I would imagine that the govt increasing taxation on property, after the debacle of the untaxed vulture funds driving buyers out of the market, could be the straw that breaks the camels back.
    It seems to be very poorly timed and could be an indication of the fiscal pressure that is coming to bear.

    Asking people who bought houses built since 2013 to start paying LPT, like all other house owners, will hardly cause a crisis?

    We have a huge fiscal deficit, we must reduce it.

    This extra 60m will help, in a very small way.


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    #176
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,086 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    L1011 wrote: »
    They apply to all properties not rented from a local authority (because there is no point in the admin effort of an LA paying themselves).

    Are you sure LA don't pay LPT on the houses they own?

    I see your point about the admin.


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    #177
    Amadan Dubh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Geuze wrote: »
    Yes, the changes are utterly insignificant, in comparison with the public finances.

    An extra 60m-70m revenue is tiny, given a 17bn deficit.

    It gets a lot of news coverage because:
    • it is a salient tax
    • Irish people are obsessed with houses

    While I think it is so little as to barely warrant comment for existing LPT payers, the bigger issue is that it is another effort of the government to raise taxes in order to feed its already bloated size and intrusion into our lives. Importantly, I note that the line being fed with the reform is that the money raised is to be kept with the local authorities for services in the local areas.

    Does "services" include entering into 20/25 year leases with investors for 85/90% of inflated market rents? I haven't found an answer to this yet but my guess is that local authority services includes the provision of local authority housing in an area which, as we know, involves entering into these leases. Where property owners didn't appreciate the scale of the rental crisis as they were not impacted, now they are being asked to pay more in order to sustain the policy which has inflated the rental market and will continue to do so.


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    #178
    coolshannagh28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    Geuze wrote: »
    Asking people who bought houses built since 2013 to start paying LPT, like all other house owners, will hardly cause a crisis?

    We have a huge fiscal deficit, we must reduce it.

    This extra 60m will help, in a very small way.

    The juxtaposition is key.


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    #179
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,086 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Amadan Dubh wrote: »
    Does "services" include entering into 20/25 year leases with investors for 85/90% of inflated market rents? I haven't found an answer to this yet but my guess is that local authority services includes the provision of local authority housing in an area which, as we know, involves entering into these leases. Where property owners didn't appreciate the scale of the rental crisis as they were not impacted, now they are being asked to pay more in order to sustain the policy which has inflated the rental market and will continue to do so.


    RAS and HAP expenditure are part of LA expenditure, yes.


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    #180
    Deub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭Deub


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Can you set out how they pay no tax?

    Thanks


    If they use REITs..
    PDF from the Revenue updated in May this year: https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-25a/25a-00-01.pdf


    "REITs are not chargeable to either corporation tax in respect of income from their property rental business or chargeable gains accruing on disposal of assets of their property rental business."


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    #181
    Jerry Attrick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Jerry Attrick


    Augeo wrote: »
    Presumably folk with "forever homes" don't pay property tax?

    Of course not!

    Their Local Authority, as the owner of the property, is liable to pay the LPT on it.


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