All Homes to be re-valued for Property Tax in November 2021

01-06-2021 8:21pm

schmittel wrote: »

Here's an idea - the purchase price?

That would be reasonable, in fairness. If I buy a house for 10k tomorrow, and it suddenly becomes worth 20k overnight because of basket case economics, it doesn't actually benefit me at all (unless I bought, planning to sell).

Most people's incomes aren't raising and dropping with erratic house pricing, so basing it on the purchase price would be a sensible thing to do.

Jerry Attrick · 01-06-2021 8:26pm

Ger Roe wrote: »

Because it has no relationship with your ability to pay. It is a notional value should you want to sell your house and would be OK if you paid it then. But .... my wages have not increased and I don't see how I need to pay more tax because my neighbours have sold their houses and apparently raised the value of my house at the same time.

I am not selling and it is already costing me more of my supposedly disposable (after tax income) to maintain it and now I have to pay more tax because someone else decides to value my house at a higher rate???? Anyway, I bought and paid for my house with my own money... without needing or getting any help from government, in fact I saved them money by doing so.... why then do I have to be punished for that achievement?

I was told at school that tax has to be fair and seen to be so, this is not. Tax the sale price, if you have to... not the estimate.

You have the option to defer the LPT if your income is too small, although the interest rate payable is very high.

jimmycrackcorm · 01-06-2021 8:42pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Yet they ask homeowners whose houses have Mica and are falling down, to pay it.

Those people will get a huge whack of taxpayers' money in exchange so it's a bargain. Many houses will have to be rebuilt which is in the hundreds of thousands.

I wonder how much sympathy they'd get were the cost of that scheme directly funded by increased property taxes for everyone else.

Calahonda52 · 01-06-2021 8:43pm

Does this table in the indo make sense

someone might paste the table.

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/how-much-is-your-house-worth/q-and-a-how-the-changes-to-property-tax-will-affect-homeowners-40491193.html

band widened so will some drop down in the payment.
I am glad to see mine capped at 2830:D

hometruths · 01-06-2021 8:44pm

L1011 wrote: »

People would be arguing that they should be paying based on what the purchase price notionally could have been at the last valuation date - cause thats the date everyone else is paying for. Legislation would have to be quite strong on that to avoid challenge.

Basically it was meant to be every 3 years, which could be argued for on the basis of development levies paid as part of the house cost - but its somehow turned in to 8.

No matter what way you do it, some people will argue it's not fair, next door is better off than me, whinge, moan, whine etc etc.

The purchase price is much fairer system for all, rather than just saying sure if buy a house now you don't have to pay it all.

Very simple - purchase price and valuation date every 3 years.

As it is, it is just another example of how in Ireland we seem to excel at creating a laughable mess for all in the interests of pandering to whoever is whingeing loudest.

The starting point should be legislation is strong as that is good government.

Instead we have the attitude, oh we best avoid doing that because we'd have to ensure we have strong legislation.

Beggars belief.

Ace2007 · 01-06-2021 8:45pm

schmittel wrote: »

Here's an idea - the purchase price?

But if you bought the a semi D house just after the last crash - you could be paying far less than your neighbor under the same roof who bought it just before the crash. - Would that be fair?

Ger Roe · 01-06-2021 8:45pm

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

You have the option to defer the LPT if your income is too small, although the interest rate payable is very high.

That doesn't take away from the fact that LPT is an inequitable tax. I get taxed more because someone else made money on their house sale and on an asset that I own and paid for myself.

Geuze wrote: »

The LPT is not new income to the councils, it replaces previous income.

So there won't be any new service provided specifically due to LPT income.

I know.... and yet we are still paying the previous taxes that originally paid for those services. It was a classic move of take away with one hand and hold the other hand out for additional payments. LPT is an additional tax on existing taxes for the same services, even though you can never actually get a list of what services your are paying for and are entitled to.

We all know it was brought in under EU directive to show how sorry we were for crashing the economy and having to get bailed out. It might be slightly more acceptable if we got the range of services and accountability from our councils that we see in Europe, but we don't.

It's all stick and no carrot.

alias no.9 · 01-06-2021 8:46pm

I'll probably be lambasted here but property taxes should be split into a habitation tax paid by the occupant to pay for local services and a site value tax paid by the owner and used to keep a lid on property prices and fund public housing schemes (available to everyone equally) so there's feedback loop to provide more units in high demand areas.

Pinoy adventure · 01-06-2021 8:49pm

The government badly need the funds too get out of the black hole there in.
A few euro per household won't make much of a difference at the end of the month

hometruths · 01-06-2021 8:57pm

Ace2007 wrote: »

But if you bought the a semi D house just after the last crash - you could be paying far less than your neighbor under the same roof who bought it just before the crash. - Would that be fair?

I am only talking about purchase price for properties bought after 2013. i.e everybody in existing houses were valued in 2013, and subsequent purchases base LPT on purchase price.

So the scenario you are talk about never happened.

But assuming it did, if the brought in an LPT in 2004 for example, then yes it's fair.

You would know what your liability is pre purchase as it is based on the price. If you don't want to pay more LPT for your house than your neighbour, then don't pay more for the house than your neighbour did.

However if you are happy with the purchase price, it follows that you are happy with the LPT liability. It is the same as stamp duty.

Perfectly fair.

standardg60 · 01-06-2021 8:59pm

touts wrote: »

Fully agree with property tax to pay for services but it should be based on those services not on some fictional valuation of the house.

Start with a base of say €20
Connected to public sewer. €20
Street lighting outside your house €5
Footpath outside your house €5
Within 5km of a motorway €5
Within 5km of a Library. €5
Within 2km of a School €5
Within 1km of a public transportation link €5
And so on

Basically add up every service in your area that the tax is supposed to pay for and pay a small contribution to that service. Those services generally add to the value of the house anyway but this way people can see what their tax is paying for. People benefitting the most from state services pay the most .

When i built my house my planning permission included substantial (more than 5% of the build cost) contributions to water, lighting, sewerage, parks and road maintenance.
LPT is double taxation imo, and all i see in return are fancied up roundabouts.

jimmycrackcorm · 01-06-2021 9:03pm

Ace2007 wrote: »

Sure it's only going to be for a few year - SF are totally against it - so when they get in power it'll be scraped:rolleyes:

Who knows, they might follow the FF strategy from 1977 to abolish domestic rates (where we ended up with VAT and income tax increases in lieu).

hometruths · 01-06-2021 9:06pm

Ace2007 wrote: »

Sure it's only going to be for a few year - SF are totally against it - so when they get in power it'll be scraped:rolleyes:

They plan to replace it with a wealth tax. A lot of Revenue to be raised from the never SF voters.

elperello · 01-06-2021 9:08pm

From a political point of view why didn't they just didn't lie low and keep collecting the free money?

Maybe just bring the 2013 + houses into the net because that's hard to argue with.

For a small amount of money they are just stirring people up and giving the opposition an open goal.

Ace2007 · 01-06-2021 9:10pm

schmittel wrote: »

They plan to replace it with a wealth tax. A lot of Revenue to be raised from the never SF voters.

Oh i know - but i would love to see what they do for the people who are asset rich but cash poor.

If you think that Ireland has 78000+ millionaire for instance - how many of them are millionaires because of their private residence?

Dempo1 · 01-06-2021 9:11pm

Geuze wrote: »

http://localauthorityfinances.com/

Pick your local authority here and have a look.

As explained, I have Zero need for any services my local authority has to offer but equally I'll say, I'd rather have the choice to pay for services in and when supplied. I'm 20 years in my home, and only once have I had an interaction with local authority, that was when Irish water tried to turn my humble 250 year cottage into a commercial entity for charging purposes, this besides the fact I had my own well and supply, I only contacted authority because irish water claimed my information given to them by the authorities which of course turned out to be quite a porky.

hometruths · 01-06-2021 9:14pm

Ace2007 wrote: »

Oh i know - but i would love to see what they do for the people who are asset rich but cash poor.

If you think that Ireland has 78000+ millionaire for instance - how many of them are millionaires because of their private residence?

They claim they have this covered.
https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2013/WealthTaxProposalsWeb.pdf

If your house is worth 1.1m but you're short of cash, this is not really going to have much impact on you.

Hubertj · 01-06-2021 9:24pm

schmittel wrote: »

They claim they have this covered.
https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2013/WealthTaxProposalsWeb.pdf

If your house is worth 1.1m but you're short of cash, this is not really going to have much impact on you.

That gave me a good laugh. Thank you.

Ace2007 · 01-06-2021 9:25pm

schmittel wrote: »

They claim they have this covered.
https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2013/WealthTaxProposalsWeb.pdf

If your house is worth 1.1m but you're short of cash, this is not really going to have much impact on you.

So SF want everyone in the state to tell them how much they are worth, whether the assets are in Ireland or abroad :rolleyes:

That's also an 8+ years old - can't count on that being a true reflection of what they would do.

01-06-2021 9:32pm

One reason for the new build exemption was
the valuations were frozen for years - how would you value a recent new build vs a house valued many years before?
Two otherwise identical houses built years apart could have differing rates.

tjhook · 01-06-2021 9:33pm

I wish they'd fix the redistributive element of LPT. A county shouldn't receive LPT funding from other counties until it has maximised it's own ability to raise funds - i.e. set it's LPT rate at the +15%.

As it is, there are instances where some counties have their own high LTP rates funding other counties that have lower rates.

E.g. Galway county sets the standard rate and is a recipient of redistributions. Next door, Clare has the +15% rate but is a nett contributor to the system.

touts · 01-06-2021 9:38pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

Just in response

I have my own waste plant

I recycle most things but pay for Refuse when required.

I have Solar Power but have an ESB connection as back up and pay government levy for the luxury

I have my own water well

I live in the middle of Nowhere

What services am I paying for exactly?

The Road outside is supposed to be partly covered by the Motor Tax I pay

Yes I'm be pedantic but not every house has the luxury of services you mention, just a humble opinion

If you get no services you should only pay the basic lowest fee.

touts · 01-06-2021 9:42pm

schmittel wrote: »

They claim they have this covered.
https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2013/WealthTaxProposalsWeb.pdf

If your house is worth 1.1m but you're short of cash, this is not really going to have much impact on you.

That's the problem with Trotskyists. They promise you that someone else will pay. Then after the revolution you discover you were the someone else they had in mind.

elperello · 01-06-2021 9:43pm

touts wrote: »

If you get no services you should only pay the basic lowest fee.

It's based on the valuation of the property.

I know a family who have to pay a contribution to get their public roadway repaired and they have to pay LPT annually as well.

01-06-2021 9:50pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

Are you offering to pay mine? What kind of statement is that?

Its being realistic

Taxes are needed to fund the country and pay for covid expenses, they just are.

This is one of the more fairer taxes but it is laughably low, it really should be at least double of what it currently is.

While they are at it, they should look at how they can bring in water charges so we are not diverting existing funds to pay for Irish Water. That alone would free up several billion in existing taxes which could be used to fund any number of services

elperello · 01-06-2021 9:53pm

tjhook wrote: »

I wish they'd fix the redistributive element of LPT. A county shouldn't receive LPT funding from other counties until it has maximised it's own ability to raise funds - i.e. set it's LPT rate at the +15%.

As it is, there are instances where some counties have their own high LTP rates funding other counties that have lower rates.

E.g. Galway county sets the standard rate and is a recipient of redistributions. Next door, Clare has the +15% rate but is a nett contributor to the system.

LV on Prime Time now saying they are fixing the redistributive element. Each county will keep what they raise and the top up will come from central funds.

touts · 01-06-2021 9:55pm

Geuze wrote: »

http://localauthorityfinances.com/

Pick your local authority here and have a look.

Interesting numbers. Dublin City has a budget of around double per person than most other counties have. No surprise there. It shows in the services and infrastructure there. Would also like to see the massive spend on administration separated out so we can see what actually gets spent on services and what gets spent on the wages, perks, pensions etc for the army of officials and administrators employ d by each council.

Dempo1 · 01-06-2021 9:57pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its being realistic

Taxes are needed to fund the country and pay for covid expenses, they just are.

This is one of the more fairer taxes but it is laughably low, it really should be at least double of what it currently is.

While they are at it, they should look at how they can bring in water charges so we are not diverting existing funds to pay for Irish Water. That alone would free up several billion in existing taxes which could be used to fund any number of services

I've personally no issue paying taxes and certainly understand the need for same, I just have a strongly held view on property tax on a home. I've paid my LPT from the outset and can painfully accept the amount I pay which is tge lowest band. I really don't believe increasing it is fair regardless of what band it is, there are ample other potential taxation measures that could be looked at. At 53, I may seem old fashioned but I've worked hard for my humble cottage and never thought when purchasing it 21 years ago it would be subject to taxation, particularly given all the other taxes homeowners and indeed tenant's pay.

Maxface · 01-06-2021 10:00pm

This is just a tax by another way, OK pay a Property Tax but how about we get something from it. Bins, we pay our own, Fire brigade we pay ourselves, I am happy to pay an amount per year for a service I need or might need. Not just a tax.

lawrencesummers · 01-06-2021 10:03pm

Why doesn’t the government tax the rental income of investment properties owned by cuckoo funds.

You know, make the rich pay some tax?

All Homes to be re-valued for Property Tax in November 2021

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