All Homes to be re-valued for Property Tax in November 2021

SusanC10

Haven't found this posted elsewhere but it looks like all residential property is to be re-valued for Property Tax in November this year.

Also all new homes since 2013 will need to pay Property Tax.

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0601/1225282-recovery-plan/

Amadan Dubh

It is paltry the impact this will have. 1/3 of those already paying need to pay an extra 100euro per year and 60% have no increase. It's nothing essentially and I'm surpised it's even being reported as it is so meaningless.

L1011

Band 3 to Band 5 or 6 for me, +180 or +275; bit more than 100! Going to be similar for a lot of people who put a realistic rather than optimistic value on in 2012.

Ace2007

Sure it's only going to be for a few year - SF are totally against it - so when they get in power it'll be scraped:rolleyes:

cubatahavana

I suppose all the houses built from 2013 will have a somewhat important impact? I bought in December a new build and was not aware that I didn’t have to pay property tax. I don’t really see the sense on being exempt

SusanC10

L1011 wrote: »

Band 3 to Band 5 or 6 for me, +180 or +275; bit more than 100! Going to be similar for a lot of people who put a realistic rather than optimistic value on in 2012.

Do you think that they might change the Bands or increase the amounts in each band ?

ForestFire

cubatahavana wrote: »

I suppose all the houses built from 2013 will have a somewhat important impact? I bought in December a new build and was not aware that I didn’t have to pay property tax. I don’t really see the sense on being exempt

I am paying property tax, but also never relasise houses built from 2013 are not paying this tax....

How did this ever come about, that people with newer houses do not have to pay this tax, like the rest of us!!

That's 8 years of missed taxes by some houses.

Jerry Attrick

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

It is paltry the impact this will have. 1/3 of those already paying need to pay an extra 100euro per year and 60% have no increase. It's nothing essentially and I'm surpised it's even being reported as it is so meaningless.

That's a strange point of view.

I'd see the addition of some 100,000 homes into the LPT scheme as being of some significance. Especially as it's likely to bring in an extra €300m annually to the exchequer.

L1011

SusanC10 wrote: »

Do you think that they might change the Bands or increase the amounts in each band ?

There was a suggestion they might reduce the rate, so the bands would stay the same but the tax per band would go down.

I think that could actually be what's intended now, if they expect anyone to get a decrease and that volume in the middle to stay the same - prices have risen significantly since 2012 so I doubt there's 10% that haven't!




The additional tax take is going to have a significant impact to the Greater Dublin Area councils over the others, my own town in particularly easily has a thousand units built since 2013.

NIMAN

Pascal said today it should raise an extra €150mill.

Not to be sniffed at.

wench

ForestFire wrote: »

I am paying property tax, but also never relasise houses built from 2013 are not paying this tax....

How did this ever come about, that people with newer houses do not have to pay this tax, like the rest of us!!

That's 8 years of missed taxes by some houses.

This tax came in the year after the mortgage tax relief at source was removed.
The exemption on new builds was supposed to be a temporary measure to ease that blow, and to encourage people towards new builds, much as the help to buy scheme does now.

Geuze

ForestFire wrote: »

I am paying property tax, but also never relasise houses built from 2013 are not paying this tax....

How did this ever come about, that people with newer houses do not have to pay this tax, like the rest of us!!

That's 8 years of missed taxes by some houses.

Plus houses in "unfinished estates" don't pay LPT.

Geuze

ForestFire wrote: »

I am paying property tax, but also never relasise houses built from 2013 are not paying this tax....

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/housing_taxes_and_reliefs/local_property_tax_exemptions.html

Exemptions from Local Property Tax

Introduction
Certain properties are exempt from the Local Property Tax. Some people may be able to defer payment of the tax if they meet specified criteria. You can read more about deferring payment of LPT.

Exemption for residential properties purchased in 2013
Any person who purchased a property in 2013 qualifies for an exemption from LPT once they occupy the property as their sole or main residence. This exemption remains until the next valuation date, 1 November 2021 (the valuation date was due to be 1 November 2019, but this was extended for a year (pdf) and then further extended for another year (pdf)).

If you purchased a secondhand property in 2013 and qualify for this exemption, you can claim your exemption online. Instructions on how to claim the exemption are available on the Revenue website.



Properties that are exempt from Local Property Tax
Properties purchased in 2013 are exempt until the end of 2021 if used as your sole or main residence. If the property is subsequently sold or ceases to be your main residence between 2013 and 2020, the exemption no longer applies.

Properties that were self-built between 1 January and 1 May 2013 are exempt until the end of 2021 if used as your sole or main residence. If the property is subsequently sold, the exemption no longer applies.

Properties that are self-built after 1 May 2013 and before 1 November 2021 are not liable for LPT until 2021 (even if sold again in that period).

New and previously unused properties purchased from a builder or developer between 1 January 2013 and before 1 November 2021 are exempt until the end of 2021 (even if sold again in that period).

Residential properties constructed and owned by a builder or developer that remain unsold and have not yet been used as dwellings (known as trading stock).

Certain properties situated in unfinished housing estates (commonly called “ghost estates”) specified in the Finance (Local Property Tax) Regulations 2013.

Properties certified as having a significant level of pyrite damage. The exemption for properties that have significant pyritic damage was extended by the Finance (Local Property Tax) (Amendment) Act 2015. This exemption applies to residential properties that have been shown to have a significant level of pyrite damage. In these cases, the properties will be exempt for approximately 6 years. You can read the detailed guidelines (pdf)

Residential properties owned by a charity or a public body and used to provide accommodation and support for people who have a particular need in addition to a general housing need to enable them to live in the community (for example, sheltered housing for the elderly or people with disabilities).

Registered nursing homes.

Properties vacated by their owners due to illness. This exemption applies to a property which was occupied by a person as his or her sole or main residence and has been vacated by the person for 12 months or more due to long-term mental or physical infirmity. An exemption may be available in situations where the property has been empty for less than 12 months, if a doctor (registered practitioner) is satisfied that the person is unlikely to return to the property. In both cases, the exemption only applies where the property is not occupied by another person.

If a person qualified for the nursing home exemption on 1 May 2013, the property remains exempt until the next valuation date, 1 November 2021 (the 2013 valuation date was due to expire on 1 November 2019, but this was extended for a year (pdf) and then further extended for another year (pdf)). Even if the person dies and the property is sold, the exemption stays with the property. However, if a person qualified for the exemption after the original valuation date, 1 May 2013, then the exemption only lasts as long as the conditions under which the exemption was granted. If the individual who owns the property dies, then the property becomes liable for LPT at the next liability date (1 November of each year).

Dunno.. I don't like the idea of re-evaluating at a point in time where property is in massive, massive demand due to covid shortages, etc. Surely means most people will have their home valued at more than it will be worth in summer 2022 when things (hopefully) go back to "normal".

NIMAN

Geuze wrote: »

Plus houses in "unfinished estates" don't pay LPT.

Yet they ask homeowners whose houses have Mica and are falling down, to pay it.

TheValeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Dunno.. I don't like the idea of re-evaluating at a point in time where property is in massive, massive demand due to covid shortages, etc. Surely means most people will have their home valued at more than it will be worth in summer 2022 when things (hopefully) go back to "normal".

I was realistic with my evaluation back in 2012. Looks like I will get heavily screwed over by this. Shouldnt have been honest.

C14N

Sinn Féin's housing spokesperson Eoin Ó Broin has said the property tax should be abolished, rather than expanded to include new homes built since 2013.

He said the property tax was not progressive and there was a more equitable way to approach things.

I don't understand this argument. How is property tax regressive? If your property has a higher value, you pay more, and property owners in general are more likely to have higher wealth than non-property owners.

NIMAN

Its just SF being populist.
Its what opposition parties do.

Jizique

C14N wrote: »

I don't understand this argument. How is property tax regressive? If your property has a higher value, you pay more, and property owners in general are more likely to have higher wealth than non-property owners.

It’s SF economics, promise something to everyone.
It is the closest tax we have to a wealth tax, if properly applied.

SusanC10

TheValeyard wrote: »

I was realistic with my evaluation back in 2012. Looks like I will get heavily screwed over by this. Shouldnt have been honest.

Can you explain how being realistic back in 2012 means people are screwed?

Murph85

I read in the Irish times it would raise 561 million extra ... homes built since 2013 being exempt is a disgrace... taxing people at 50p euro on the thousand over a pittance is grand... but people paying an extra euro a week on this, will cause uproar... totally ridiculous ridiculous. I'd be in favour of implementing a proper lpt or scrap it...

Geuze

Murph85 wrote: »

I read in the Irish times it would raise 561 million extra ... ...

Mistake by reporter.

LPT now = 500m approx

After these changes = 560m

bilbot79

Great. Bought a new build this year and only found out by this piece of news that new builds haven't been incurring property tax. The Lord giveth...and he taketh away.

cubatahavana

bilbot79 wrote: »

Great. Bought a new build this year and only found out by this piece of news that new builds haven't been incurring property tax. The Lord giveth...and he taketh away.

exact same as me. I went to register on the revenue website and found out I didn't have to pay it

awec

C14N wrote: »

I don't understand this argument. How is property tax regressive? If your property has a higher value, you pay more, and property owners in general are more likely to have higher wealth than non-property owners.

Lots of SF voters living in high value housing in the cities.

Murph85

Geuze wrote: »

Mistake by reporter.

LPT now = 500m approx

After these changes = 560m

60 million? Lol ! That figure did seem way too high, I remember lpt bringing In a pittance... suppose it will keep the lights on in the coutry for a few minutes though...

howiya

C14N wrote: »

I don't understand this argument. How is property tax regressive? If your property has a higher value, you pay more, and property owners in general are more likely to have higher wealth than non-property owners.

Property tax is regressive because there is no consideration of an individuals ability to pay.

Very simplistic example. Eoin O'Broin and his neighbour own houses with equal value or within the same band. Eoin earns a TDs salary while the neighbour earns 30-40k a year yet they will pay the same amount of LPT.

On the other hand income tax is progressive because Eoin will pay more than the neighbour.

howiya

Murph85 wrote: »

60 million? Lol ! That figure did seem way too high, I remember lpt bringing In a pittance... suppose it will keep the lights on in the coutry for a few minutes though...

RTE.ie saying will increase from 480-490m to 560m with most of the increase as a result of the inclusion of the new builds from 2013 onwards.

howiya

howiya wrote: »

Property tax is regressive because there is no consideration of an individuals ability to pay.

Very simplistic example. Eoin O'Broin and his neighbour own houses with equal value or within the same band. Eoin earns a TDs salary while the neighbour earns 30-40k a year yet they will pay the same amount of LPT.

On the other hand income tax is progressive because Eoin will pay more than the neighbour.

It may be the least worst way of assessing owners for property tax. The counter argument to your example is the person earning less may have lower outgoings than EO’B, or may have paid considerably less for the house. So valuing properties in bands may be the fairest, everyone hates it equally.

Dempo1

I understood quite incorrectly only properties in un finished /ghost estates where exempt from this offensive Tax, not all houses built after 2013, am I understanding this correctly?

If true, its outrageous and surely legally questionable. How can it be a new build house not affected by the crash debacle not be taxable, it makes absolutely no sense and extremely unfair. I've been paying property tax since the start, admitidly as I've a small restored cottage in the middle of nowhere, I'm on lower band but that's not the point.

Jerry Attrick

NIMAN wrote: »

Yet they ask homeowners whose houses have Mica and are falling down, to pay it.

It'as a self-declaration tax. Surely anyone unfortunate enough to own such a house would value it at close to zero as it's completely unsaleable?

L1011

Dempo1 wrote: »

I understood quite incorrectly only properties in un finished /ghost estates where exempt from this offensive Tax, not all houses built after 2013, am I understanding this correctly?

If true, its outrageous and surely legally questionable. How can it be a new build house not affected by the crash debacle not be taxable, it makes absolutely no sense and extremely unfair. I've been paying property tax since the start, admitidly as I've a small restored cottage in the middle of nowhere, I'm on lower band but that's not the point.

Houses built >2013 haven't got a comparable valuation date hence can't be taxed, there is a new valuation date in November 2021 so that sorts that out.

It will then be the case that >2022 houses aren't taxed til a valuation date is set again. The original revaluation date was meant to be something like 2015 but has been repeatedly booted down the road when elections loom.

Jerry Attrick

Dempo1 wrote: »

I understood quite incorrectly only properties in un finished /ghost estates where exempt from this offensive Tax, not all houses built after 2013, am I understanding this correctly?

If true, its outrageous and surely legally questionable. How can it be a new build house not affected by the crash debacle not be taxable, it makes absolutely no sense and extremely unfair. I've been paying property tax since the start, admitidly as I've a small restored cottage in the middle of nowhere, I'm on lower band but that's not the point.

The goverenment (quietly) agrees with you that it's legally questionable, that's why they're doing something about it.

The main reason that it wasn't done earlier was because of FG's political cowardice, knowing that as the value of housing rose sharply so too would the cost of the tax; leading to fears of them losing seats in elections (general, local and European).

LPT is far too low, should be double if not more

Dempo1

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

It'as a self-declaration tax. Surely anyone unfortunate enough to own such a house would value it at close to zero as it's completely unsaleable?

I don't believe it is a self declaration tax (property) its assessed by local authorities? I do believe there are exemptions for properties affected by this dreadful nightmare and besides, likely most of these properties built after 2013, I'm open to correction on this

Dempo1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

LPT is far too low, should be double if not more

Are you offering to pay mine? What kind of statement is that?

howiya

Dav010 wrote: »

It may be the least worst way of assessing owners for property tax. The counter argument to your example is the person earning less may have lower outgoings than EO’B, or may have paid considerably less for the house. So valuing properties in bands may be the fairest, everyone hates it equally.

Yeah I don't have a strong opinion on it either way. Just answering why it is considered to be a regressive tax.

Dempo1

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

The goverenment (quietly) agrees with you that it's legally questionable, that's why they're doing something about it.

The main reason that it wasn't done earlier was because of FG's political cowardice, knowing that as the value of housing rose sharply so too would the cost of the tax; leading to fears of them losing seats in elections (general, local and European).

But surely quietly doing something about it won't cut mustard, I wonder has there been any test cases or legal discussions on this situation, I'm just actually shocked to learn this today.

I can genuinely understand exemptions when fair, ghost, unfinished estates etc but there's been substantial developments since then with full services, amenities etc, it's just extraordinary.

nibtrix

One of the madder things about it was that buying ANY house in 2013 exempted you from LPT, not just a new build. I think it was revealed as an error they made at the time which was removed for subsequent years, but has still meant 8 years exemption for anyone who bought a second hand house that year and kept it as their main residence.

Properties that are exempt from Local Property Tax
Properties purchased in 2013 are exempt until the end of 2021 if used as your sole or main residence. If the property is subsequently sold or ceases to be your main residence between 2013 and 2020, the exemption no longer applies.[\quote]

Jerry Attrick

Dempo1 wrote: »

But surely quietly doing something about it won't cut mustard, I wonder has there been any test cases or legal discussions on this situation, I'm just actually shocked to learn this today.

I can genuinely understand exemptions when fair, ghost, unfinished estates etc but there's been substantial developments since then with full services, amenities etc, it's just extraordinary.

There has been lots in the media about it; this is a recent example:- https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40295174.html

And bodies like the ESRI have been quite critical of the fact that Paschal ran into his garden shed to hide whenever the subject was raised.

Dempo1

L1011 wrote: »

Houses built >2013 haven't got a comparable valuation date hence can't be taxed, there is a new valuation date in November 2021 so that sorts that out.

It will then be the case that >2022 houses aren't taxed til a valuation date is set again. The original revaluation date was meant to be something like 2015 but has been repeatedly booted down the road when elections loom.

Is it seriously the argument its taken 8 years to comparable valuations, this is just beggar's belief, how long has the property register been in operation. I just don't get this argument, not being critical of you, just this extraordinary situation.

L1011

Dempo1 wrote: »

I don't believe it is a self declaration tax (property) its assessed by local authorities? I do believe there are exemptions for properties affected by this dreadful nightmare and besides, likely most of these properties built after 2013, I'm open to correction on this

Its self-declaration. You're sent a suggested band but can correct this at will

Now, if you sell a house for vastly more than the band you had picked, you may be asked to explain this!

Dempo1 wrote: »

Is it seriously the argument its taken 8 years to comparable valuations, this is just beggar's belief, how long has the property register been in operation. I just don't get this argument, not being critical of you, just this extraordinary situation.

The valuation date is the only thing that was outstanding - Revenue/councils do not actually value the house.

The date was kicked out, repeatedly, to try protect the sitting Governments seats in various elections.

Ger Roe

C14N wrote: »

I don't understand this argument. How is property tax regressive? If your property has a higher value, you pay more, and property owners in general are more likely to have higher wealth than non-property owners.

Because it has no relationship with your ability to pay. It is a notional value should you want to sell your house and would be OK if you paid it then. But .... my wages have not increased and I don't see how I need to pay more tax because my neighbours have sold their houses and apparently raised the value of my house at the same time.

I am not selling and it is already costing me more of my supposedly disposable (after tax income) to maintain it and now I have to pay more tax because someone else decides to value my house at a higher rate???? Anyway, I bought and paid for my house with my own money... without needing or getting any help from government, in fact I saved them money by doing so.... why then do I have to be punished for that achievement?

I was told at school that tax has to be fair and seen to be so, this is not. Tax the sale price, if you have to... not the estimate.

Dempo1

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

There has been lots in the media about it; this is a recent example:- https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40295174.html

And bodies like the ESRI have been quite critical of the fact that Paschal ran into his garden shed to hide whenever the subject was raised.

Honestly, I'd been away but still paying the tax, genuinely wasn't aware and just accepted the situation without question, my blood pressure rising

Dempo1

L1011 wrote: »

Its self-declaration. You're sent a suggested band but can correct this at will

Now, if you sell a house for vastly more than the band you had picked, you may be asked to explain this!



The valuation date is the only thing that was outstanding - Revenue/councils do not actually value the house.

The date was kicked out, repeatedly, to try protect the sitting Governments seats in various elections.

Ah, I understood, thanks but it's just quite shocking so many properties exempted and for what appears to be delays in a, process, just appalling, I genuinely had not idea this was the situation

L1011

Dempo1 wrote: »

Ah, I understood, thanks but it's just quite shocking so many properties exempted and for what appears to be delays in a, process, just appalling, I genuinely had not idea this was the situation

Its not delays to a process; its deliberate delays by Governments scared of electoral responses.

It was delayed in Budget 2016 by Noonan as there was an election looming, and in Budget 2019 by O'Donoghue as there was an election looming. It was most recently kicked out a final year due to COVID.

If the coalition was shakier they probably would have kicked it out again.

Dempo1

L1011 wrote: »

Its not delays to a process; its deliberate delays by Governments scared of electoral responses.

It was delayed in Budget 2016 by Noonan as there was an election looming, and in Budget 2019 by O'Donoghue as there was an election looming. It was most recently kicked out a final year due to COVID.

If the coalition was shakier they probably would have kicked it out again.

Yes I'm hearing you, just galling all the same

touts

Fully agree with property tax to pay for services but it should be based on those services not on some fictional valuation of the house.

Start with a base of say €20
Connected to public sewer. €20
Street lighting outside your house €5
Footpath outside your house €5
Within 5km of a motorway €5
Within 5km of a Library. €5
Within 2km of a School €5
Within 1km of a public transportation link €5
And so on

Basically add up every service in your area that the tax is supposed to pay for and pay a small contribution to that service. Those services generally add to the value of the house anyway but this way people can see what their tax is paying for. People benefitting the most from state services pay the most .

L1011

touts wrote: »

Fully agree with property tax to pay for services but it should be based on those services not on some fictional valuation of the house.

Start with a base of say €20
Connected to public sewer. €20
Street lighting outside your house €5
Footpath outside your house €5
Within 5km of a motorway €5
Within 5km of a Library. €5
Within 2km of a School €5
Within 1km of a public transportation link €5
And so on

Basically add up every service in your area that the tax is supposed to pay for and pay a small contribution to that service. Those services generally add to the value of the house anyway but this way people can see what their tax is paying for. People benefitting the most from state services the most pay the most .

This would leave isolated houses that are exceptionally expensive to serve paying less than urban dwellings which are comparatively cheap

The eight streetlights on my road of 60 houses will cost less to maintain (and probably to install - but as they were developer supplied the house cost covered that) than one for a rural house

No contribution for water supply?

Ger Roe

Agreed, we are long overdue a menu of charges for the services we can expect from councils.
'
Anytime you ask what you get for your tax you are fobbed off with 'libraries and swimming pools' etc.... It is very hard to get an actual list of service entitlements off them, try getting a road fixed or grass cut or tree maintained - we used to get these for our tax payments before they made up the property tax. We also got bin collections paid for as well, before we went down the private enterprise route where you pay separately and will keep paying more for your less waste collected because if we all reduce as much as we should, the business becomes unsustainable, without cost increases.

While I agree we should have a list of services and charges, I would also argue that we were already paying for these services before property tax.