All Homes to be re-valued for Property Tax in November 2021

Jerry Attrick

Geuze wrote: »

LPT is paid on social housing, subject to the existing exemptions.

Incomplete answer. It is payable - but not by the tenant.

Topgear on Dave

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

While I think it is so little as to barely warrant comment for existing LPT payers, the bigger issue is that it is another effort of the government to raise taxes in order to feed its already bloated size and intrusion into our lives.

I note the TDs that scream the loudest about the LPT and the need to remove it are also the ones that scream the loudest when government cuts spending somewhere or anywhere. Square that circle.

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Where property owners didn't appreciate the scale of the rental crisis as they were not impacted, now they are being asked to pay more in order to sustain the policy which has inflated the rental market and will continue to do so.

As one who had to move this greatly amuses me.

And dont get me started on local councillors who object to "transients" when rental apartments are proposed for construction.

DavyD_83

Is need to see the new brackets and treated, but I'm guessing I'll be asked to pay a good bit extra. Maher price for our house is about double what we paid in 2012.
It's ridiculous that I have to pay tax based on what somebody else is willing to pay for my house now. I couldn't afford to pay for my house now!!

When they put up tax on booze, are they going to stay backdating it for the pints you bought over past 10yrs too?

Ace2007

C14N wrote: »

It is an asset though. Whether you sell it or not, it has that value, which now belongs to you. The gain may not be crystallised yet but you still have access to that wealth through selling it if and when you want to.

The main issue with it that I see is that it taxes the improved value of property, which effectively discourages improving your land. Any improvements that you do yourself (such as renovations or improving efficiency) you should be fully entitled to without tax, it's only the value of the land that acts as a source of unearned wealth and which benefits from increased stabilisation.

So based on your logic, if the house is worth less for what you paid for - could you be owed money by the government, as you've made a loss?

Can this be used to net of gains on other assets for the year?

Geuze

Deub wrote: »

If they use REITs..
PDF from the Revenue updated in May this year: https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-25a/25a-00-01.pdf


"REITs are not chargeable to either corporation tax in respect of income from their property rental business or chargeable gains accruing on disposal of assets of their property rental business."

REITs all around the world do not pay tax on the rental income, as long as they pay out 85% of rental income to shareholders.

So that income is taxed then.

Geuze

DavyD_83 wrote: »

Is need to see the new brackets and treated, but I'm guessing I'll be asked to pay a good bit extra. Maher price for our house is about double what we paid in 2012.
It's ridiculous that I have to pay tax based on what somebody else is willing to pay for my house now. I couldn't afford to pay for my house now!!

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0602/1225536-local-property-tax-changes/

C14N

Ace2007 wrote: »

So based on your logic, if the house is worth less for what you paid for - could you be owed money by the government, as you've made a loss?

Can this be used to net of gains on other assets for the year?

I hadn't thought about it, but my instinct isn't to completely rule it out. If property values have decreased in a certain locality, then arguably it would be mostly due to government action and therefore could warrant compensation. I could at least see it being fairer to provide tax relief or exemption to anyone in negative equity, since unlike others they can't just sell the property to reduce their taxes. As it is, your taxes would at least go down as property value goes down.

Long-term, effective taxes on land values would greatly reduce incidences of negative equity though and help to stabilise prices. Land prices aren't going to increase massively if they aren't lucrative assets for investors (by which I also mean normal people buying a house for themselves) like they are now, which means they aren't going to bubble and burst either. To take an extreme example where it's at 10%, most people aren't going to be eager to buy a €100k plot of land if they have to pay €10k per year to hold onto it, which will drive down the price of that land in the first place, unless its extremely useful land that can make enough money to pay for that tax. Obviously that can't just be done overnight though.

Geuze

Ace2007 wrote: »

So based on your logic, if the house is worth less for what you paid for - could you be owed money by the government, as you've made a loss?

Can this be used to net of gains on other assets for the year?

Gains on selling PPR are not subject to CGT, so losses on selling PPR are not allowed against other capital gains.

DavyD_83

If the value of my house increases to point that I cannot afford the tax, even though I can afford the mortgage or I own the house, I should sell the house and move to a cheaper house
So now I can be priced out of the house I already bought. Fabulous!

On the upside, looking at that re-banding table it actually seems to be done relatively sensibly. On old rates I would have jumped 3-4 bands, from old to New it will probably only be 1.

BrianD3

Geuze wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0602/1225536-local-property-tax-changes/

Based on that, I'll be paying the same as I am at present for my houses. Well outside Dublin. The house that was in band 2 in 2013 would still be in band 2, Band 3 house would still be in band 3. Therefore from my point of view, the adjustment in the values for each band accurately match the increases in property values.

Ace2007

Geuze wrote: »

Gains on selling PPR are not subject to CGT, so losses on selling PPR are not allowed against other capital gains.

But i was replying to a poster who said we should be paying LPT tax on the "gain", if you do that you would be offsetting on a lower value was the point.

gmisk

Geuze wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0602/1225536-local-property-tax-changes/

I am guessing a lot of people are going to think their house is worth 199,999....

Geuze

Ace2007 wrote: »

But i was replying to a poster who said we should be paying LPT tax on the "gain", if you do that you would be offsetting on a lower value was the point.

OK, sorry, you are asking what happens to LPT if house value falls.

That depends on how often the re-valuations occur.

In England, valuations happened in 1991, and have not been re-valued since!!

Here, the current valuations are the 2013 valuation.

The plan is to have re-valuations every four years:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0602/1225536-local-property-tax-changes/

Idbatterim

0-200,000 = E90?! LOL! why bother collecting it, what a farce! They are going to have to start deciding, where taxes will be hiked, because there is no appetite for austerity again, they wont cut waste here...

the taxation system here is total and utter insanity... Basically rely on a few multinationals and a small enough amount of workers to extort... as good as free motor tax, no direct water charges, as good as no property tax... What genius taxation strategy, a wonder no other country follows the irish model :rolleyes:

maybe they should up the fifty percent marginal rate, make it even less worthwhile to work , take on promotions, over time etc...

Ace2007

gmisk wrote: »

I am guessing a lot of people are going to think their house is worth 199,999....

I wonder would/could an insurance company request LPT details on paying out a claim and use this to pay a lower amount as this is what the home owner stated was the value of their home.

Bobtheman

There will be a huge amount of whinging about this.
Bottom line is this nation had a huge amount of debt before lockdown and more now.
I would not trust the Germans to turn off the tap at some stage.
We need to invest massively in health and housing.
I know SF has a three card trick of better services and less tax but only a moron would think that will work.

C14N

Idbatterim wrote: »

0-200,000 = E90?! LOL! why bother collecting it, what a farce! They are going to have to start deciding, where taxes will be hiked, because there is no appetite for austerity again, they wont cut waste here...

the taxation system here is total and utter insanity... Basically rely on a few multinationals and a small enough amount of workers to extort... as good as free motor tax, no direct water charges, as good as no property tax... What genius taxation strategy, a wonder no other country follows the irish model :rolleyes:

maybe they should up the fifty percent marginal rate, make it even less worthwhile to work , take on promotions, over time etc...

This kind of goes against your first point though. If you want to spread the tax base around, you have to charge more people, and that will usually mean charging small amounts instead of 0. I agree €90 is small, and to be fair there are probably a scarce number of properties valued under €200k anyway, but it's still the same proportion as the rest of the rates. Wouldn't make sense to only push it up for the lowest band, and cutting it out completely only narrows the tax base further.

elperello

Ace2007 wrote: »

I wonder would/could an insurance company request LPT details on paying out a claim and use this to pay a lower amount as this is what the home owner stated was the value of their home.

Probably not.

Insurance is based on the reinstatement cost.

Ace2007

Bobtheman wrote: »

There will be a huge amount of whinging about this.
Bottom line is this nation had a huge amount of debt before lockdown and more now.
I would not trust the Germans to turn off the tap at some stage.
We need to invest massively in health and housing.
I know SF has a three card trick of better services and less tax but only a moron would think that will work.

If you asked Mary Lou what the number one goal for her would be if they got into power, i would hazard a guess that neither Housing nor Health would be number one.

Wanderer78

Bobtheman wrote: »

There will be a huge amount of whinging about this.
Bottom line is this nation had a huge amount of debt before lockdown and more now.
I would not trust the Germans to turn off the tap at some stage.
We need to invest massively in health and housing.
I know SF has a three card trick of better services and less tax but only a moron would think that will work.

covid is proving, governments do not need to balance budgets, by doing so in fact slows economic activities and growth, by increasing taxes on its citizens, amongst other things. yes again, covid is also proving, by running a deficit, we can have better public services, and may not in fact need to increase taxes to do so

[Deleted User]

Geuze wrote: »

Here, the current valuations are the 2013 valuation.

The plan is to have re-valuations every four years:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0602/1225536-local-property-tax-changes/

Finally, some intelligent actions. It was nuts that they brought this in with such a long re-calc period.

Now that its set to every 4 years at least it will become a normal part of life that this will be updated rather than the current hullabaloo

I just wish they took the opportunity to increase the rates for everyone. It was expected across the board so even a small increase would have paid dividends

Ace2007

elperello wrote: »

Probably not.

Insurance is based on the reinstatement cost.

Which is likely to be less than the value of the house.

emo72

God. Mine has more than doubled. Sickening. My income has gone down since 2013. This is a nightmare.

Sinn Fein, will certainly have my vote if they say they are scraping this.

L1011

Ace2007 wrote: »

Which is likely to be less than the value of the house.

And that's why LPT values are irrelevant to insurance even if they had rights to access them. Its not a thing.

Darc19

Ace2007 wrote: »

Sure it's only going to be for a few year - SF are totally against it - so when they get in power it'll be scraped:rolleyes:

And they'll pick €600m off the everlasting money tree.

ted1

ForestFire wrote: »

I am paying property tax, but also never relasise houses built from 2013 are not paying this tax....

How did this ever come about, that people with newer houses do not have to pay this tax, like the rest of us!!

That's 8 years of missed taxes by some houses.

Because the LPT was based on 2013 houses. Houses built since had a zero value in 2013

Claw Hammer

DaCor wrote: »

Finally, some intelligent actions. It was nuts that they brought this in with such a long re-calc period.

Now that its set to every 4 years at least it will become a normal part of life that this will be updated rather than the current hullabaloo

I just wish they took the opportunity to increase the rates for everyone. It was expected across the board so even a small increase would have paid dividends

What was wrong with the old system of rateable valuation? Every house was valued relative to every other house. then they just adjusted the multiplier every so often. No need to bother about market valuations moving up or down at all.

Wanderer78

Darc19 wrote: »

And they'll pick €600m off the everlasting money tree.

yes, new debts must always be created, in both the public and private sectors, in order to maintain economic activities and growth, this is how money and debt works, always baring in mind, when debts are paid off, it is in fact the destruction of money itself

Darc19

emo72 wrote: »

God. Mine has more than doubled. Sickening. My income has gone down since 2013. This is a nightmare.

Sinn Fein, will certainly have my vote if they say they are scraping this.

Either it was grossly undervalued or you've simply moved from the token €90 to the very low €225 level. Still exceptionally low.

And if your income has dropped it means you are paying less tax. If earning under €35k you are paying close to the lowest personal tax in Europe.

Also mortgage rates have dropped since 2013. So plenty of swings and roundabouts

Idbatterim

DaCor wrote: »

Finally, some intelligent actions. It was nuts that they brought this in with such a long re-calc period.

Now that its set to every 4 years at least it will become a normal part of life that this will be updated rather than the current hullabaloo

I just wish they took the opportunity to increase the rates for everyone. It was expected across the board so even a small increase would have paid dividends

something, something "de vulnerable" who shouldnt pay any taxes, but can afford hundreds a month on cigarettes, alcohol, tv and broadband packages and expensive phone plans...

basically, they shouldnt have to pay anything, because they are crap with money... those that are good with it, should pay for themselves and others:rolleyes: