Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

timmyntc wrote: »

:pac: The irony. If you truly believed in personal responsibility, then we wouldnt need covid restrictions as people could be personally responsible for their own safety.

You only believe in personal autonomy and responsibility when it aligns with your preconceived ideals.

Not sure you know what Irony means tbf. But no matter.

And how exactly does what you describe (incorrectly btw) as my "belief" about something translate to the need for restrictions - when it is evident there's lots of people who don't give a fig for personal responsibility?

Or are you really trying to claim that people have no notion of personal responsibility/ autonomy at all?

Btw you may have missed it - but the comment was in response to the ' Its all Tony's fault" sthick - Where large crowds of people behave without self determination etc and all go on the piss simply because its all Tony's fault or wtte :pac:

Thats like a five your old whose just been caught smearing **** on the wall of the toilet and when caught - claims it was the bad man who made him do it

Boggles wrote: »

What exact straws would I need to clutch at to discredit a small amount of loons who think RTE are eating babies?

:pac:

It has nothing to do with their own credibility and you know that - just more misinterpretation of a post to avoid the point being put to you - which is that 1000+ outdoors mostly maskless and shouting and raving in close proximity is a totally valid sample to see the potential spread of covid on outdoor gatherings similar to those we saw in Dublin over the weekend.

charlie14 wrote: »

There is nothing that mysterious about how this virus spreads. It is by transmission. Mainly from person to person. There is a major difference in being outdoors keeping a distance and outdoors rammed on top of each other like sheep in a heap.

Yes, and the virus does not spread nearly as well in an outdoors environment due to the natural ventilation from fresh air. Theres nothing mysterious about it.

gozunda wrote: »

Haha. I think you're referring to the study of outdoor gatherings - which was done when there were massive restrictions and bugger all outdoor socialising or any outdoor gatherings going on etc

Nope. That has already been largely debunked. And the problem with protests etc - is that they simply weren't tracked or traced. For many such protests a lot people observed social distancing and wore masks. Maybe not all of the time but seen with a lot of protests etc

What we do know is that normal outdoor activities are low risk. The scenes in Dublin City centre were nothing like being out for a walk with your mates and the dog. Large crowds with no social distancing/ face to face contact / close contact remains a higher risk than small groups of people exercising or even socialising outdoors. And we know that already.

It remains the excuse that people have been told to have an "outdoor summer" is bs as it really does not stand up to the most basic scrutiny. 

Nothing has been debunked. The only major outbreak we have had since the start was Christmas when it was full on indoors.

Outdoor gatherings have been happening for months now and no surge.

gozunda wrote: »

Not sure you know what Irony means tbf. But no matter.

And how exactly does what you describe (incorrectly btw) as my "belief" about something translate to the need for restrictions - when it is evident there's lots of people who don't give a fig for personal responsibility?

Btw you may have missed it - but the comment was in response to the ' Its all Tony's fault" sthick - Where large crowds of people behave without self determination etc and all go on the piss simply because its all Tony's fault or wtte :pac:

Thats like a five your old whose just been caught smearing **** on the wall of the toilet and when caught - claims it was the bad man who made him do it

The population needing to be "managed" to prevent the spread of covid is one of the key arguments brought up again and again to justify the restrictions. A fairly popular counter argument is usually that restrictions should be relaxed and people allowed to take personal responsibility for their safety.

The irony, is that in these threads you support the restrictions and do not trust people to exercise their personal responsibility wrt pandemic restrictions, but on the other hand you use "personal responsibility" as a stick to beat people with for going out and having cans on the streets of Dublin.

Boggles wrote: »

You are the one who brought credibility into it.

But very simple question, how many of these people who believe the virus doesn't exist would have engaged with the HSE and got themselves tested?

I brought the credibility of the event, not the people into it. As you well know.
And only because you tried to dismiss it as too small a sample when it clearly was not.

As for the bit in bold, neither you or I know that, is the answer.
How many people as a subset of those protesting believe the virus doesnt exist? I'd say its in the 10s

timmyntc wrote: »

Neither you or I know that, is the answer.

Why would someone protesting about a virus not existing get tested for a virus they don't believe exists?

That would madness on top of madness.

charlie14 wrote: »

The authorities should provide more bins and public toilets to facilitate large gathering that the authorities recommended should not to take place.

OK

Well at this stage the alternative to more bins and toilets isn't crowds won't meet or gather. It's a repeat of what happened at the weekend. Cutting your nose to spite your face is not going to be helpful to anyone.
It's just more proof of how detached from reality those in charge are. Are they totally incapable of accepting the realities of the situation? Yes its not ideal but its happening whether they like it or not and will continue.
All the tut tutting and scolding won't make people change their behaviour. The horse has bolted and people are done with this. Accepting the realities and approaching them with pretty obvious solutions suits all best rather than blindly thinking people give a fcuk what they say anymore or will listen.

Some might see it as rewarding misbehaviour but sure I thought the ultimate aim was keeping everyone safe? If its going to happen either way surely the safest thing is give the basic facilities the city should have had even before Covid-19

At last the people in a body
To the Town Hall came flocking:
'Tis clear, cried they, our Mayor's a noddy;
And as for our Corporation — shocking
To think we buy gowns lined with ermine
For dolts that can't or won't determine
What's like to rid us of our vermin!
Rouse up, Sirs! Give your brains a racking
To find the remedy we're lacking,
Or, sure as fate, we'll send you packing!
At this the Mayor and Corporation
Quaked with a mighty consternation.

timmyntc wrote: »

There were plenty of maskless protests such as the anti-lockdowners, but no observed spike in cases after that either. Same thing seen across the world.Not to mention the plethora of studies on indoor vs outdoor transmissions worldwide.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/outdoor-transmission-accounts-for-0-1-of-state-s-covid-19-cases-1.4529036

But I'm sure you are more qualified to comment on this than the studies authors?

Also the statement you made above is a bold claim, do have you any proof to back this up? Or is it more of a wish on your part.

If you read the comment carefully- you'll notice what I detailed not did not include all such protests. etc. But no matter.

As for the Irish Times study on infection rates outdoors when there was fuq all outdoor activities or socialising due to restrictions - I reckon we can put that one safely in the bin tbf.

And as difficult it is to prove a negative - track and trace here has been sketchy enough. Do a Google search yourself for any track or trace been done on protests here / following individuals who were there. First of all there were no sanctioned lists of people and anyone coming down with covid Imho were highly unlikely to admit - "oh yeah I attended an illegal protest" etc. Tge same protests which were heavily criticised by many.

But if you can prove that there were detailed track and trace events at protests here - I'll buy you a pint - outdoors

It remains what went on in Dublin City Centre wasn't even close to any type of normal outdoor activity. Effectively its mass socialisation with large crowds with little or no social distancing / in close contact / face to face over an extended period. And people wonder why those there are getting called out for taking the mickey where the majority of people are sticking to restrictions?

gozunda wrote: »

If you read the comment carefully- you'll notice what I detailed not did not include all such protests. etc. But no matter.

As for the Irish Times study on infection rates outdoors when there was fuq all outdoor activities or socialising due to restrictions - I reckon we can put that one safely in the bin tbf.

And as difficult it is to prove a negative - track and trace here has been sketchy enough. Do a Google search yourself for any track or trace been done on protests here / following individuals who were there. First of all there were no sanctioned lists of people and anyone coming down with covid Imho were highly unlikely to admit - "oh yeah I attended an illegal protest" etc. Tge same protests which were heavily criticised by many.

But if you can prove that there were detailed track and trace events at protests here - I'll buy you a pint - outdoors

It remains what went on in Dublin City Centre wasn't even close to any type of normal outdoor activity. Effectively its mass socialisation with large crowds with little or no social distancing / in close contact / face to face over an extended period. And people wonder why those there are getting called out for taking the mickey where the majority of people are sticking to restrictions?

If there is no spike in cases following this weekend (I guess you would expect to see by the end of next week, which would be too early to assign to outdoor dining recommencing), then what would the reason be for not seeing a spike?

It might be a line of thought that if you’re that reckless with health of others you may not get tested, but surely there would be onwards spread to friends and family.

Maybe there will be a spike but if not - will that be evidence enough that mass outdoor gatherings do not cause a surge in cases?

NIAC Fanboy wrote: »

Nothing has been debunked. The only major outbreak we have had since the start was Christmas when it was full on indoors.

Outdoor gatherings have been happening for months now and no surge.

right. Look in other european countries with less restrictions.Nrs going down. Crowded streets, parks, beaches.
The focus should be on ventilation indoors, public facilities etc.

gozunda wrote: »

If you read the comment carefully- you'll notice what I detailed not did not include all such protests. etc. But no matter.

As for the Irish Times study on infection rates outdoors when there was fuq all outdoor activities or socialising due to restrictions - I reckon we can put that one safely in the bin tbf.

And as difficult it is to prove a negative - track and trace here has been sketchy enough. Do a Google search yourself for any track or trace been done on protests here / following individuals who were there. First of all there were no sanctioned lists of people and anyone coming down with covid Imho were highly unlikely to admit - "oh yeah I attended an illegal protest" etc. Tge same protests which were heavily criticised by many.

But if you can prove that there were detailed track and trace events at protests here - I'll buy you a pint - outdoors

It remains what went on in Dublin City Centre wasn't even close to any type of normal outdoor activity. Effectively its mass socialisation with large crowds with little or no social distancing / in close contact / face to face over an extended period. And people wonder why those there are getting called out for taking the mickey where the majority of people are sticking to restrictions?

If you had read the article I supplied, its actually a reference to international studies so the lack of outdoor activities in Ireland has no bearing on this. So not in the bin.

So you have no proof only suppositions that people would lie to contact tracers about attending protests. Right. I think your claim about contact tracing, which has no evidence to support it, should be put in the bin.


Hmm, so like concert conditions perhaps? If only there were international test events recently to back up the impact of covid spread in these scenarios...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/covid-test-pilot-events-15-cases-west-end-revival-june-21-oliver-dowden-b937048.html

Just four cases of Covid occurred across the entire 17 days of the World Snooker Championships, staged indoors at Sheffield’s Crucible Theatre.

Zero cases emerged from the Brits, even though the audience could mingle at tables and in boxes without masks.

There were only two cases among 5,900 pop-lovers at an outdoor music festival at Sefton Park, Liverpool, and none at all at the reduced-capacity football at Wembley Stadium, indicating that summer festivals, sporting events and entertainments held outdoors are very safe.

Nine cases were found among 6,000 revellers who packed into a nightclub in Liverpool over two days without masks. The relatively higher incidence confirmed that clubbing is the toughest part of the night economy to bring back safely but is not seen as so high as to rule out the reopening of venues.

showpony1 wrote: »

So government are saying that if people Piss, litter etc in the streets and there is no rise in cases they will lock us down cause they don't like it.

As this would be saying that lockdown is a measure they are now allowed utilise in non-covid related circumstances as they see fit.

Sure.

In the future they will be measuring the urine to asphalt ratio in all towns and cities.

Above a certain amount and it's lockdown.

timmyntc wrote: »

So you have no proof only suppositions that people would lie to contact tracers about attending protests.

This lady certainly won't be engaging.