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Vaccine Megathread No 2 - Read OP before posting

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    #212
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Id love to see stats for J&J. I wonder will a 2nd dose be required for the India strain
    The recent findings out of the UK suggest that the Indian strain isn't as bad as the South African variant for vaccine effectiveness, and the J&J vaccine showed good results in the South African arm of the trial. So that's hopeful.


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    #213
    ShineOn7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭ShineOn7


    Are there any real differences between the mRNA vaccines Pfizer and Moderna?

    I've had a read on the HSE website and can't see any major ones

    All info from here https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/covid-19-vaccine/

    Efficiency:

    Pfizer - 95%
    Moderna - 94%

    Side effects:

    Both appear to be practically the same too with negligible side effects. Although for both the HSE website mentions "More than 1 in 10,000 people may develop Bell’s palsy"

    BP is usually temporary as far as I know


    Other:

    Both have a 4 week gap for the second shot

    With Pfizer you're good to go a week after this and Moderna is two weeks after

    Happy days

    Indian variant:
    The Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna coronavirus vaccines appear to protect against COVID variants B.1.617 and B.1.618 first identified in India, researchers have reported in a new pre-print paper, which has not yet been peer-reviewed, CNN reported
    https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/pfizer-moderna-vaccines-effective-against-covid-variants-from-india-study-121051800070_1.html

    More good news there

    Miscellaneous:
    New evidence

    New evidence from Israel shows the risk of severe COVID-19 was reduced by 92%, 7 days after 2 doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine.

    https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/covid-19-vaccine/pfizer-biontech/immunity/

    It's looking like almost all (if not all) 40-49 year olds in Ireland will get one of these two vaccines so I thought it'd be good to jump into the data

    TLDR: On reading the information I've found, they seem to be pretty much the same Vaccine


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    #214
    mikeorange
    Site Banned Posts: 58 ✭✭mikeorange


    hmmm wrote: »
    This sounds like incredibly good news - is it?

    Doesn't that just confirm natural infection and T Cell memory trumps everything else?

    Its been 18 months now and I haven't heard of anyone dieing from Covid re-infection out of 8,000,000 people, it must be incredibly rare, our immune systems are smarter than our scientists will ever be.

    Makes sense as Sars survivors from 2003 are thought to have immunity to Sars-Cov-2, 18 years later

    Honestly to me what makes sense is people after getting 2 doses and full protection should expose themselves regularly to Covid in the wild and get that T Cell response.

    Its a pity when we get those 500 pcr cases a day we are not checking blood markers while pcr testing them and figuring out why they are getting infected and why some have no symptoms.

    We have learned very little about our immune systems these last 18 months

    Challenge trials could have answered alot


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    #215
    Micky 32
    Registered Users Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭Micky 32


    Interesting twitter thread:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1396531230808625159?s=21


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    #216
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,568 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Chinese vaccines are performing terribly in terms of reducing infection. Lots of focus on the Seychelles but the UAE overtook Israel as the most vaccinated country in the world (with a population over 1 million) today and its case numbers have been increasing all week. After dropping towards 100 cases per million per day they are now surging back towards 200 cases per million, Israel have 3 cases per million. Bahrain, the third most vaccinated country in the world over 1 million population, is now over 1,300 cases per million per day. Their neighbours Qatar, with significantly less vaccinated but who are only using Pfizer are now down to 100 cases per million.


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    #217
    nocoverart
    Registered Users Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭nocoverart


    I’m 40 in Oct (how the fook did that happen LOL) does anybody know if I’ll be part of the Forties cohort because I’ll be 40 this year or will I be included with the Thirties? Cheers!


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    #218
    deeperlearning
    Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭deeperlearning


    Chile also had problems and used CoronaVac/Sinovac.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56731801


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    #219
    nocoverart
    Registered Users Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭nocoverart


    snotboogie wrote: »
    Chinese vaccines are performing terribly in terms of reducing infection. Lots of focus on the Seychelles but the UAE overtook Israel as the most vaccinated country in the world (with a population over 1 million) today and its case numbers have been increasing all week. After dropping towards 100 cases per million per day they are now surging back towards 200 cases per million, Israel have 3 cases per million. Bahrain, the third most vaccinated country in the world over 1 million population, is now over 1,300 cases per million per day. Their neighbours Qatar, with significantly less vaccinated but who are only using Pfizer are now down to 100 cases per million.

    You can always rely on good auld China...


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    #220
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users Posts: 5,716 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    mikeorange wrote: »
    Doesn't that just confirm natural infection and T Cell memory trumps everything else?

    Its been 18 months now and I haven't heard of anyone dieing from Covid re-infection out of 8,000,000 people, it must be incredibly rare, our immune systems are smarter than our scientists will ever be.

    Makes sense as Sars survivors from 2003 are thought to have immunity to Sars-Cov-2, 18 years later

    Honestly to me what makes sense is people after getting 2 doses and full protection should expose themselves regularly to Covid in the wild and get that T Cell response.

    Its a pity when we get those 500 pcr cases a day we are not checking blood markers while pcr testing them and figuring out why they are getting infected and why some have no symptoms.

    We have learned very little about our immune systems these last 18 months

    Challenge trials could have answered alot
    Expose yourself on purpose to Covid.... why would you want to be doing that ffs?

    For 500 cases a day, you would want to be testing the bloods of those who got tested.... so over 20k a day. You don't want someone who tested positive to pop into the local hospital or GP to get bloods done. Any what markers would you be testing?

    Challenge trials are an ethical nightmare, but the information obtained would be extremely useful. There was an Irish company about to start challenge trials in the UK, haven't heard anything since. Challenge trials with vaccinated people vs new strains would provide a wealth of information though, and possibly a little safer for participants.


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    #221
    mikeorange
    Site Banned Posts: 58 ✭✭mikeorange


    snotboogie wrote: »
    Chinese vaccines are performing terribly in terms of reducing infection. Lots of focus on the Seychelles but the UAE overtook Israel as the most vaccinated country in the world (with a population over 1 million) today and its case numbers have been increasing all week. After dropping towards 100 cases per million per day they are now surging back towards 200 cases per million, Israel have 3 cases per million. Bahrain, the third most vaccinated country in the world over 1 million population, is now over 1,300 cases per million per day. Their neighbours Qatar, with significantly less vaccinated but who are only using Pfizer are now down to 100 cases per million.

    Not defending Chinese but Seychelles have also used alot of AZ, nearly as much as Sinovac.
    Wouldn't go blaming it entirely on Chinese vaccine.


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    #222
    mikeorange
    Site Banned Posts: 58 ✭✭mikeorange


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    Expose yourself on purpose to Covid.... why would you want to be doing that ffs?

    For 500 cases a day, you would want to be testing the bloods of those who got tested.... so over 20k a day. You don't want someone who tested positive to pop into the local hospital or GP to get bloods done. Any what markers would you be testing?

    Challenge trials are an ethical nightmare, but the information obtained would be extremely useful. There was an Irish company about to start challenge trials in the UK, haven't heard anything since. Challenge trials with vaccinated people vs new strains would provide a wealth of information though, and possibly a little safer for participants.

    Your protected from serious disease by the vaccine and being exposed to Covid guarantees a t cell immune response for long term protection to all variants. Vaccine teaches you to swim, now you have to swim. Its why I agree that masks should come off after being fully vaccinated, your body needs to be exposed to Covid. Its why I think Covid ward staff shouldn't wear PPE after full vaccination, they need robust immune systems.

    Bloods, weight, height, smoker, diabetic etc all that info should be gathered when your pcr tested, like it would be if you were admitted to a hospital with a disease, we need as much data as possible

    Full blood panel done same moment as pcr test, biochemistry, endocrinology, v tests, haematology

    This is of course based on low cases like present, as when everyone is vaccinated we need to monitor breakthrough cases.

    We won't ever have human challenge trials for covid so this would be an alternative.


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    #223
    Maryanne40
    Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭Maryanne40


    nocoverart wrote: »
    I’m 40 in Oct (how the fook did that happen LOL) does anybody know if I’ll be part of the Forties cohort because I’ll be 40 this year or will I be included with the Thirties? Cheers!

    I'm 59 but was able to register as a 60 year old as I was born in 1961.....so you should be able to register as 40.

    You wonder how you got to 40 so fast...believe me from 40 to 60 races by even faster!!! So have your vaccine and then enjoy every minute :)


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    #224
    nocoverart
    Registered Users Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭nocoverart


    Oh God, really? time really does fly. Thanks for the info though and yes, we all should enjoy every minute on this weird blue spaceship called Earth.


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    #225
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,568 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    mikeorange wrote: »
    Not defending Chinese but Seychelles have also used alot of AZ, nearly as much as Sinovac.
    Wouldn't go blaming it entirely on Chinese vaccine.

    The UK have primarily used Astra Zeneka and have only 35 cases per million per day. That actually makes Sinovac look worse than if it was the only vaccine used.


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    #226
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users Posts: 5,716 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    snotboogie wrote: »
    The UK have primarily used Astra Zeneka and have only 35 cases per million per day. That actually makes Sinovac look worse than if it was the only vaccine used.

    Mikeorange believes vaccinated people should purposely expose themselves to Covid, maybe that's what Seychelles is doing?

    Am I right in saying a vaccine that's 90% effective against say, symptoms, that's just based on a time frame. So over that time frame only 10% of vaccinated people developed symptoms. Over a longer time and a longer exposure, that 10% can increase?


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    #227
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    Mikeorange believes vaccinated people should purposely expose themselves to Covid, maybe that's what Seychelles is doing?

    Am I right in saying a vaccine that's 90% effective against say, symptoms, that's just based on a time frame. So over that time frame only 10% of vaccinated people developed symptoms. Over a longer time and a longer exposure, that 10% can increase?

    No. It’s says over the same time period, 90% fewer cases were found in those with vaccine than without. For example 100000 people. 50000 vaccinated. 1000 unvaccinated get Covid, only 100 vaccinated.


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    #228
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users Posts: 5,716 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No. It’s says over the same time period, 90% fewer cases were found in those with vaccine than without. For example 100000 people. 50000 vaccinated. 1000 unvaccinated get Covid, only 100 vaccinated.

    So 6 months later (assuming covid was just as prevalent) the 49900 vaccinated people, 99 would get covid? What I'm getting at is, the 99% vaccinated people after the initial trial are not strictly immune, they just (A) haven't been exposed to covid and (B) haven't been exposed to covid over and over again.

    I just think a poster saying people vaccinated should willing fully expose themselves to covid is reckless. And also have vaccinated HCW's not wear a mask..... madness.


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    #229
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,119 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    mikeorange wrote: »
    Your protected from serious disease by the vaccine and being exposed to Covid guarantees a t cell immune response for long term protection to all variants.

    There's no proof to make that claim, the FDA has recently approved a t-cell test but it can't tell if you will have protection only that you had it previously and have t-cell, it can go way back further than a pcr test.
    It'll be good for making new treatments, people with long Covid in the states that didn't have a positive PCR tests will be able to prove if they had it now as insurance isn't paying out without a positive test.


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    #230
    ClosedAccountFuzzy
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ClosedAccountFuzzy


    If you look at the technology behind the vaccines, it’s fairly clear that more likely ones to be successful are those using novel or modern techniques to create an expression of the spike proteins on cells to build immunity.

    RNA viruses of this type have been notoriously difficult to develop vaccines for. That’s why I would suspect the initial Chinese vaccines aren’t performing well. They’re based, as far as I am aware, on similar technology to most flu vaccines - using attenuated viruses / killed virus particles.

    If those had worked, then we would be using them for vaccination against similar RNA viruses as it’s straight forward technology. However, they haven’t worked in the past with this and it seems to me like the results they’re achieving are patchy.

    The direct mRNA vaccines take a totally new approach and the viral vector ones like Janssen and AstraZeneca achieve a similar expression of spike proteins, just with a different methodology.

    They both rely heavily on extremely advanced biotechnology that’s only recently available and the mRNA vaccines are making use of a very advanced delivery system involving engineered balls of fat molecules that act nearly like an artificially built virus to carry mRNA into cells - essentially a nanotechnology of a sort.

    The viral vector vaccines achieve the same spike protein expression, but do it using a modified natural virus to carry the instructions. So you’ve an extra step involving a live, basically harmless, virus. This I suspect is probably why you’re getting some of the obscure side effects showing up with these more than with the mRNA approach.

    The brief and limited expression of the spike protein on some of your cells, allows your immune system to develop an extremely focused response to the spike, which acts like a key for the virus to enter a very specific ACE2 receptor in your cells.

    That’s like Achilles’ heal for the virus as it’s an extremely complicated bit of evolution that is like a key that fits into a lock. If the spike changes significantly, it’s very hard for the virus to come up with an alternative solution to access the ACE2 receptors. So it in theory should find it quite hard to get past that.

    It could come up with better ways of evading the immune system, but it’s still a very awkward thing for it to achieve.

    With vaccines that use broken up or attenuated viruses, your immune system is likely to just become responsive to any number of random aspects of the proteins, not just the spike.

    So the virus has lots of opportunities to escape immunity and RNA viruses aren’t that stable so evolve quickly.

    That’s why I would suspect the Chinese vaccines aren’t very effective.

    The mRNA vaccines are just extremely impressive technology and a huge breakthrough that I think will potentially change medicine in a very positive way in a lot of areas - they may lead to vaccinations for hugely problematic viruses like HIV and also areas of cancer treatment.

    The viral vector platforms also show huge potential.

    I just can’t really see how a traditional vaccine approach like the Chinese one could really be successful though. It doesn’t make sense that it wouldn’t already have been useful for SARS etc if it were. The tech was tried - it’s the very first thing anyone would try as that’s how many vaccines are made.

    We didn’t end up with this very new approach just for the craic. It was used because the traditional approaches haven’t every worked very well with this kind of virus.


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    #231
    M_Murphy57
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭M_Murphy57


    nocoverart wrote: »
    I’m 40 in Oct (how the fook did that happen LOL) does anybody know if I’ll be part of the Forties cohort because I’ll be 40 this year or will I be included with the Thirties? Cheers!

    Similar question but vaccine is open for 45+ today.

    Can people aged 44 register tomorrow or do we need to wait for a govt "announcement" inviting us to register (whenever that may be)


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    #232
    M_Murphy57
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭M_Murphy57


    nocoverart wrote: »
    I’m 40 in Oct (how the fook did that happen LOL) does anybody know if I’ll be part of the Forties cohort because I’ll be 40 this year or will I be included with the Thirties? Cheers!

    Similar question but vaccine is open for 45+ today.

    Can people aged 44 register tomorrow or do we need to wait for a govt "announcement" inviting us to register (whenever that may be)


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    #233
    Polar101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭Polar101


    M_Murphy57 wrote: »
    Similar question but vaccine is open for 45+ today.

    Can people aged 44 register tomorrow or do we need to wait for a govt "announcement" inviting us to register (whenever that may be)

    45's opened on Sunday, so it's "stuck" on 45+ now. They haven't said when it's going to move down yet.


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    #234
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    A modelling study looking to identify blood markers suggests that there is protection even with low levels of antibodies. It also mentions the possibility of such analysis being an alternative to the very time consuming Phase III trials.
    The research showed that the presence of even small quantities of these potent ‘neutralizing antibodies’ indicates that a vaccine is effective at protecting against COVID-19.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01372-6


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    #235
    Zipppy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,054 ✭✭✭Zipppy


    OH got her J&J in Croke Park yesterday...she was only about 35 mins in total..very orderly.

    Tiredness and a slightly raised temperature last night and today she's fine...
    I get my second Pfizer this day week so happy days...

    Lots of people being told different stories regards when after J&J you are considered fully vaccinated.
    Some are told 2 weeks, some a month and my OH was told 12 days ..


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    #236
    mikeorange
    Site Banned Posts: 58 ✭✭mikeorange


    snotboogie wrote: »
    The UK have primarily used Astra Zeneka and have only 35 cases per million per day. That actually makes Sinovac look worse than if it was the only vaccine used.

    Your presuming all the infected used Sinovac in Seychelles for your comparison to UK?

    When its closer to 50/50 split Sinovac/AZ used in Seychelles

    1st dose of AZ is very poor against variants and Seychelles have only given most 1st dose there. Seychelles I believe has alot SA variant there.


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    #237
    mikeorange
    Site Banned Posts: 58 ✭✭mikeorange


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    Mikeorange believes vaccinated people should purposely expose themselves to Covid, maybe that's what Seychelles is doing?

    How do you think the human race has survived this long?

    By exposing ourselves to viruses everyday or hiding away ay home? Once we get vaccinated we need to be exposed in everyday life, makes sense?


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    #238
    mikeorange
    Site Banned Posts: 58 ✭✭mikeorange


    is_that_so wrote: »
    A modelling study looking to identify blood markers suggests that there is protection even with low levels of antibodies. It also mentions the possibility of such analysis being an alternative to the very time consuming Phase III trials.



    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01372-6

    That's the key for sure, the answers are inside us.


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    #239
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    mikeorange wrote: »
    How do you think the human race has survived this long?

    The human race has survived this long by evolving an immune system that ensure a high rate of survival until offspring are able to fend for themselves, up to about age 50-60.

    We haven't evolved protection against pathogens which kill old people because that's not how evolution works.

    Human evolution through survival of the fittest largely stopped with modern medicine. We are now reliant on science to advance our health and longevity. This is what we call civilisation. It is wonderful.


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    #240
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,854 ✭✭✭Russman


    mikeorange wrote: »
    Once we get vaccinated we need to be exposed in everyday life, makes sense?

    Why would this make sense ?


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    #241
    mikeorange
    Site Banned Posts: 58 ✭✭mikeorange


    Russman wrote: »
    Why would this make sense ?

    Because its how we always lived our lives, we didn't actively avoid flu example after vaccination.If we keep up restrictions after vaccinations its against how we always lived.


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