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Cork - BusConnects

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  • Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I haven't experienced such issues with bendy buses, in recent years at least, and I spend a lot of time in a city where they are the standard form of transport. They are more space efficient without need for a stairs, multiple doors speeds up boarding and alighting and they better accommodate buggies and those with mobility issues. They also allow for easier upgrade to light rail if necessary. With proper offboard ticketing, they would be great for our small cities.

    I do not want to take this thread off topic, but the experience of the No. 10 bus in Dublin is that they are not suitable for routes that require any attempt at tight corners. Also, the Wright version had no doors in the trailer and so would be no advantage over the current double decker. They are horrible buses.

    A four axle design, more like a tram, would be a better solution.




  • I do not want to take this thread off topic, but the experience of the No. 10 bus in Dublin is that they are not suitable for routes that require any attempt at tight corners. Also, the Wright version had no doors in the trailer and so would be no advantage over the current double decker. They are horrible buses.

    A four axle design, more like a tram, would be a better solution.

    I don't see the issue with three axles but anyway, obviously appropriate vehicles would need to be sourced and the route designed to accommodate them. My point is, if the intention is that there will eventually be a light rail there, and these works are intended for ease of upgrade, going bendy bus now makes sense. That's aside from the multiple other benefits of bendy buses.




  • Details here:


    https://virtualengage.arup.com/maccurtain-street/


    Pretty cool way of presenting the information without an actual public information session

    I just had a look at the council consultation site for this as it closes today and from what I can see there are no submissions;

    https://consult.corkcity.ie/en/node/2012/submissions

    Very surprised by that, I would have thought that somebody somewhere would have had something to say on it.




  • Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I just had a look at the council consultation site for this as it closes today and from what I can see there are no submissions;

    https://consult.corkcity.ie/en/node/2012/submissions

    Very surprised by that, I would have thought that somebody somewhere would have had something to say on it.

    There were submissions as a number of people and groups on Twitter put up theirs. System glitch I'd say more than anything.

    .

    .


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  • marno21 wrote: »

    You'd wonder if Jarrett Walker + Associates would go for this, they were mithered with their Dublin work, and you'd wonder how much of their work has survived the various consultation rounds.




  • I do not want to take this thread off topic, but the experience of the No. 10 bus in Dublin is that they are not suitable for routes that require any attempt at tight corners.
    Ha, can you imagine the 216 as a bendy bus going around the corner by Lennoxes!




  • CatInABox wrote: »
    You'd wonder if Jarrett Walker + Associates would go for this, they were mithered with their Dublin work, and you'd wonder how much of their work has survived the various consultation rounds.

    It does somewhat depend on the parameters within which they are told to work.

    The NTA originally instructed them to build a network based on significant numbers of people now having to change to go to the city centre, including onto already packed trains and trams which couldn't take them, frequencies on radial routes at lower levels than what was in place by the time the first draft was published, and without any infrastructure being in place beforehand.

    That was never going to work.

    The revised network published in Autumn 2019, which formed the basis of the final network design published last month reflected that reality.

    I would doubt that any revised network for Cork City would propose much forcing people to change buses to get to/from the city, but it would entail significantly more orbital routes (like in Dublin).




  • I do not want to take this thread off topic, but the experience of the No. 10 bus in Dublin is that they are not suitable for routes that require any attempt at tight corners. Also, the Wright version had no doors in the trailer and so would be no advantage over the current double decker. They are horrible buses.

    A four axle design, more like a tram, would be a better solution.

    Not wanting to pull this off topic, but as has been pointed out to you before, operating articulated buses in the city, with zero infrastructure modifications in place for their safe operation, including extended bus stop cages to allow the bus pull in properly at bus stops, and retreated stop lines (as already used at certain locations in the city to good effect) that allow such vehicles to make turns safely, was never going to work.

    None of those were put in place and we never got to see the potential of the vehicles in practice.

    You're judging them without any infrastructure being in place for them to operate safely.

    Added to that, those buses were forced onto Dublin Bus by the DTO, against their will as they felt that the necessary infrastructure measures would never happen.




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    Not wanting to pull this off topic, but as has been pointed out to you before, operating articulated buses in the city, with zero infrastructure modifications in place for their safe operation, including extended bus stop cages to allow the bus pull in properly at bus stops, and retreated stop lines (as already used at certain locations in the city to good effect) that allow such vehicles to make turns safely, was never going to work.

    None of those were put in place and we never got to see the potential of the vehicles in practice.

    You're judging them without any infrastructure being in place for them to operate safely.

    Added to that, those buses were forced onto Dublin Bus by the DTO, against their will as they felt that the necessary infrastructure measures would never happen.

    Is that because politically we value shiny new buses more than boring things that let the buses work more effectively .. nobody goes ooh I like that effective bus stop, and seamless ticketing ,and the fact that the bus is cumulatively quicker and more reliable ,it's a hard sell ...
    Whereas as extra brand new buses ,with ads on the side to say which government program has paid for it ,are easy to point to ...( And most importantly don't take away from car spaces on the road )


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  • Markcheese wrote: »
    Is that because politically we value shiny new buses more than boring things that let the buses work more effectively .. nobody goes ooh I like that effective bus stop, and seamless ticketing ,and the fact that the bus is cumulatively quicker and more reliable ,it's a hard sell ...
    Whereas as extra brand new buses ,with ads on the side to say which government program has paid for it ,are easy to point to ...( And most importantly don't take away from car spaces on the road )

    Well to be fair it was one individual, the former head of the DTO, who "drove" that one.

    Not one of their finest moments.




  • Jarrett Walker & Associates hired to design an improved bus network for Cork.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40210025.html?type=amp&__twitter_impression=true

    In addition to this, consultants have been appointed to design core bus corridors in the city as follows:

    WSP (Mayfield-Montenotte-City Centre, Ballyvolane-Montenotte-City, Dublin Hill-Blackpool-City, Apple-Shandon-City)

    Arup (Ballincollig-Mardyke-City, Bishopstown-City, Wilton-City, Cork Airport-Turners Cross-City)

    Barry (Dunkettle-Tivoli-Kent-City, Douglas-N28-City, Jacobs Island-Ballinlough-City, Mahon-Ballintemple-City)

    AECOM (Orbital Route: CUH-Western Road-Hollyhill-Blackpool-Mayfield-JLT-Mahon Point-Douglas Village-Black Ash-CUH)




  • I just hope this isn't as painful and torturous as the Dublin example, launched almost 3 years ago with none of the new network implemented and none of the infrastructure under construction, or even in the planning process as of yet. The article mentions Dublin's overhauled network is to implemented this year, which is untrue, it's supposed to start this year and drag out for a whopping 4 years. That's if it starts this year, it could easily be forgot about considering there's not a whimper about it and several routes are due to start in Q1 this year. We're also without an integrated ticket as of yet which undermines the entire project.

    The Galway equivalent seems to be proceeding as a more muted affair, spearheaded by the local council with 0% media interest, perhaps this approach is better.




  • What do you think Cork should do that Dublin did, to avoid this lengthy delay?

    https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1351607058366390272




  • Judging from the media and residential reaction to the Wilton road project a couple of years ago, I doubt this will be straightforward.




  • markodaly wrote: »
    What do you think Cork should do that Dublin did, to avoid this lengthy delay?

    https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1351607058366390272

    There is very little that can be done. The backlash will be at least as ferocious in Cork as it was in Dublin.




  • As mentioned, based on the backlash and media reaction to the 200 metre Wilton Road project, this is going to be very painful and will die a death through local objections.




  • I've heard down the grape vine, Cork BC will be a combined consultation, so network redesign and corridors all in the one go. This will be released in October of this year. I am told that the infrastructure element will be bold, but given the source and the disappointment of CMATS I wont hold my breath.

    The first iteration of bus connects in Dublin was a disappointment in terms of urban realm and consideration given to the pedestrian. Hopefully lessons learned there. Even the latest iteration of BC Dublin has disappointing elements eg the phibsboro part which sends cylists on a detour and keeps footpaths narrow.




  • Bus Eireann / NTA / TFI seem to have integrated real time into Google Maps now. Most bus routes are coloured now and show if late/early/cancelled. Visually it looks much better.




  • Cork now has its own page on the bus connects website. Unlike Galway which seems to be a council led project. There'll be 13 cbcs overall. Impressive given there'll only be 16 in Dublin and 2 or 3 in Galway.

    Consultation will be starting by about September apparently.


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  • cgcsb wrote: »
    Cork now has its own page on the bus connects website. Unlike Galway which seems to be a council led project. There'll be 13 cbcs overall. Impressive given there'll only be 16 in Dublin and 2 or 3 in Galway.

    Consultation will be starting by about September apparently.

    Anything to be said for a ferocious community opposition group with never ending funds of dubious sources who get a free ride to say whatever they want with no challenge by the local media?

    It's great to see this moving but given the trouble capital projects in Cork have faced, it's going to be some battle.




  • snotboogie wrote: »
    Anything to be said for a ferocious community opposition group with never ending funds of dubious sources who get a free ride to say whatever they want with no challenge by the local media?

    It's great to see this moving but given the trouble capital projects in Cork have faced, it's going to be some battle.
    I would say it's better than in Dublin. There were fatwas issued over the grangegorman filtered permeability scheme whish was just a side show of bus connects. We've yet to see a shovel in the ground either.




  • cgcsb wrote: »
    I would say it's better than in Dublin. There were fatwas issued over the grangegorman filtered permeability scheme whish was just a side show of bus connects. We've yet to see a shovel in the ground either.

    But that was successful and is in place now.




  • Not BusConnects per se but it is fairly close. This seems like the best place to post this. Mods can move it if there is another more suitable thread.

    Cork County Council have launched a consultation on their awful consultation portal for a project titled Little Island Sustainable Transport Interventions;

    https://www.corkcoco.ie/en/planning/traffic-transport/statutory-processes

    Two bus gates which should be good additions but I think they could be more ambitious. Where the scheme starts on the L7074, they could include a bus only slip from the new junction link road for inbound buses to directly access this new route. This would allow people transfer from trains at the proposed Dunkettle station to buses into Little Island.

    There also needs to be more actual bus lanes. Maybe a bus only lane right the way in front of the large retail units, all the way from The Range over to Harvey Norman. The existing car park entrance/exit at the western side could retain and car parks on both sides could be accessed from beside Costa. There really should also be a bus route going south and looping around Pepsi.




  • I'm now hearing that there'll be a public consultation on this 'at the start of July' but this consultation will be on the network, not the infrastructure. My view is that it is the wrong approach. The network was out first in Dublin and the default position of people was: sure 'X' is jammers buses will be held up there and that seemed to fade away when the infrastructure details were announced.




  • NTA have posted this to their website, https://busconnects.ie/media/2230/cork-busconnects-leaflet-a4-10621.pdf, which is the usual high-level explanation of the aims and goals for BusConnects.

    But it has a draft timelines for the project. Earlier considerations that the Network and corridors would be done together wasn't true and in fact it seems the NTA are separating the two entirely.

    The Choices Report, which will ask for feedback from Corkonians if they overall support the concept of interchange etc, will be in Q3 this year. The Network Redesign will be in Q4 this year, with the final network du in Q1 2022. Assumedly this is because Cork's network is a fraction the size of Dublins and so does not require as much time

    When the Network is finished, then the consultation for the corridors will start,




  • NTA have posted this to their website, https://busconnects.ie/media/2230/cork-busconnects-leaflet-a4-10621.pdf, which is the usual high-level explanation of the aims and goals for BusConnects.

    But it has a draft timelines for the project. Earlier considerations that the Network and corridors would be done together wasn't true and in fact it seems the NTA are separating the two entirely.

    The Choices Report, which will ask for feedback from Corkonians if they overall support the concept of interchange etc, will be in Q3 this year. The Network Redesign will be in Q4 this year, with the final network du in Q1 2022. Assumedly this is because Cork's network is a fraction the size of Dublins and so does not require as much time

    When the Network is finished, then the consultation for the corridors will start,

    I'm surprised that they are even bothering with a "Choices" Report. It is just too high level. The NTA should realised that from the Dublin project.

    Better to draw up a 1st draft proposal and put it out there and then work from that, making it absolutely clear that it can change!




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    I'm surprised that they are even bothering with a "Choices" Report. It is just too high level. The NTA should realised that from the Dublin project.

    Better to draw up a 1st draft proposal and put it out there and then work from that, making it absolutely clear that it can change!

    The reason Dublins first draft relied so heavily on the concept of interchange is because that's what the Choices Report said Dubliners wanted.

    If Corks Choices report response is against the idea that it wont be used from the outset




  • I can see massive local objections and community action groups being driven on by councilors against this whole being egged on by the local media when the consultation comes out.


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  • The reason Dublins first draft relied so heavily on the concept of interchange is because that's what the Choices Report said Dubliners wanted.

    If Corks Choices report response is against the idea that it wont be used from the outset

    The problem with that approach was, as I said, that the Dublin Choices report was simply too high level, and to be honest the population responding was rather skewed towards those with a specific interest in the topic.

    It clearly wasn’t what people wanted as the result of the first draft proved in relation to existing journeys to/from the city.


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