Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

10-05-2021 06:43PM

embraer170 wrote: »

Sorry, please show me where Germany has stopped its residents/citizens leaving the country for COVID-19 reasons during the 19 Pandemic? If it makes you any happier, I can even narrow it down and say for leisure purposes.

You might not have said it but you were happy to post a link (with no commentary) to say that Germany once imposed a travel ban on Ireland.

And by imposting a €2000 fine, Ireland is definitely stopping people from leaving the country.

Please dont quote me when you are having your own made up argument.

Did I say Germany stopped people for covid19 reasons? Can you please quote me back? If you cannot then can you accept you just tried to put those words in my mouth?

Ireland is NOT stopping people from leaving the country. Again thats your mind making a decision that they are the same. They arent legally or in practice.

embraer170 · 10-05-2021 06:43PM

pjohnson wrote: »

When has Ireland more importantly?

What is a €500 / €2000 fine?

People in this country are repeatedly using the example of other countries doing the same. I am not aware of any EU country having gone anywhere near as far as Ireland (and for such a long period of time).

Germany certainly has not.

embraer170 · 10-05-2021 06:45PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Please dont quote me when you are having your own made up argument.

Did I say Germany stopped people for covid19 reasons? Can you please quote me back? If you cannot then can you accept you just tried to put those words in my mouth?

Then what were you attempting to do with that link?

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Ireland is NOT stopping people from leaving the country. Again thats your mind making a decision that they are the same. They arent legally or in practice.

So what is the fine if it is not a case of stopping people?

10-05-2021 06:45PM

embraer170 wrote: »

What is a €500 / €2000 fine?

People in this country are repeatedly using the example of other countries doing the same. I am not aware of any EU country having gone anywhere near as far as Ireland (and for such a long period of time).

Germany certainly has not.

Its a fine. a financial penalty for an act you actually performed.

Logic dictates you cannot get a fine for performing an act that you were prevented from performing. Yes?

Lumen · 10-05-2021 06:47PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Its a fine. a financial penalty for an act you actually performed.

Logic dictates you cannot get a fine for performing an act that you were prevented from performing. Yes?

Ah behave. The government is preventing travel with the threat of a fine.

Corholio · 10-05-2021 06:48PM

People should be able to contact who they want without judgment regardless of anyone's opinion on it's ineffectiveness. Constantly repeating that it'll do no good just because someone posts here that they are doing it is bizarre.

A lot of the time this thread isn't about travel at all, it's about 'what can I say different to this persons post' repeat infinitum.

embraer170 · 10-05-2021 06:48PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Its a fine. a financial penalty for an act you actually performed.

Logic dictates you cannot get a fine for performing an act that you were prevented from performing. Yes?

The threat of a large fine is obviously enough to stop the majority from leaving the country.

Now you might be right that they will not physically stop you from leaving, most reasonable people might argue a fine equivalent to the mean monthly take home pay will have the same impact.

Darwin · 10-05-2021 06:49PM

Ray Donovan wrote: »

So I have emailed my 5 TD's, my 5 MEP's and my wife's 4 TD's. And sent my complaint to the European Commission.

But this is the really interesting bit....one of my TD's rang me back within 20 minutes!! He is FG and a former minister and told me he was against the fine and MHQ from the start and it was brought in response to populism.

He basically said that June 9th (well he actually said some day in June when the MHQ needs to be renewed, and I informed him it was June 9th) is the key date and he is hopeful both MHQ and Travel Fine will go on that date.

He never replied when I pressed him on a date for the commencement of the Green Cert.

Fair play to him for ringing me to be fair.

I think we have the FG TD Ray...I just got a call too, also a former minister and pretty much the same as what you have said. I usually get a reply from my FF TD and he no doubt will play both sides of the fence.

pjohnson · 10-05-2021 06:49PM

embraer170 wrote: »

What is a €500 / €2000 fine?

People in this country are repeatedly using the example of other countries doing the same. I am not aware of any EU country having gone anywhere near as far as Ireland (and for such a long period of time).

Germany certainly has not.

"Fine"
noun
noun: fine; plural noun: fines
a sum of money exacted as a penalty by a court of law or other authority.
"a parking fine"

Its certainly not stopping anyone from going. If they want to go they can go and just pay accordingly.

Or YOU can decide that you dont want to pay so therefore YOU dont go.

The government isn't responsible for YOUR decision.

10-05-2021 06:51PM

Lumen wrote: »

Ah behave. The government is preventing travel with the threat of a fine.

again, simple logic.

You cannot be fined for commiting an act that you claim are being prevented from committing.

Simple reality, if you want to go to Malaga in the morning for holiday, you can. Not a single person will prevent you from doing so.

10-05-2021 06:53PM

embraer170 wrote: »

The threat of a large fine is obviously enough to stop the majority from leaving the country.

Now you might be right that they will not physically stop you from leaving, most reasonable people might argue a fine equivalent to the mean monthly take home pay will have the same impact.

Certainly, but thats not the same.

And I would appreciate it if you could be honest and mature enough to accept you misunderstood me.

pjohnson · 10-05-2021 06:56PM

If you cant afford the fine then just don't go on holiday.

It shouldn't be hard to figure out. I mean some people probably cant afford a trip to Las Vegas and a 14 night stay in the Casino.

That doesn't mean the government is stopping you going to Las Vegas.

Happydays2020 · 10-05-2021 06:59PM

pjohnson wrote: »

"Fine"
noun
noun: fine; plural noun: fines
a sum of money exacted as a penalty by a court of law or other authority.
"a parking fine"

Its certainly not stopping anyone from going. If they want to go they can go and just pay accordingly.

Or YOU can decide that you dont want to pay so therefore YOU dont go.

The government isn't responsible for YOUR decision.

Fines are there to deter behaviour and that one did.

It is reasonable for people to say it was disproportionate and will may have lasting consequences.

Darwin · 10-05-2021 07:01PM

pjohnson wrote: »

If you cant afford the fine then just don't go on holiday.

It shouldn't be hard to figure out. I mean some people probably cant afford a trip to Las Vegas and a 14 night stay in the Casino.

That doesn't mean the government is stopping you going to Las Vegas.

You are making the assumption that everyone who wants to leave the country wants to take a holiday. This is certainly not the case and yet they may not fall into the exempted category either. The €2K fine is completely disproportionate now and needs to go end of.

normanoffside · 10-05-2021 07:14PM

It’s not a fine lads. It’s a tax

KanyeSouthEast · 10-05-2021 07:28PM

pjohnson wrote: »

If you cant afford the fine then just don't go on holiday.

It shouldn't be hard to figure out. I mean some people probably cant afford a trip to Las Vegas and a 14 night stay in the Casino.

That doesn't mean the government is stopping you going to Las Vegas.

What’s your view on long term tourism?

saabsaab · 10-05-2021 07:31PM

Darwin wrote: »

You are making the assumption that everyone who wants to leave the country wants to take a holiday. This is certainly not the case and yet they may not fall into the exempted category either. The €2K fine is completely disproportionate now and needs to go end of.

Can they not travel if they have a valid reason without a fine?

Valhallapt · 10-05-2021 07:33PM

I see myself as a European citizen. I have a home in county Kildare and a home in county Loulé. I typically spend half the year in one and half the year in the other.

Loulé consistently has lower covid rates that Kildare.

Why am I not allowed to go to my home in Loulé, taking a plane with people who are probably vaccinated and have tested negative to a county with a lower covid prevalence rate??

But I am free to go to Donegal with one of the highest covid rates in Europe on a bus where no one has been tested?

We are either in the EU and I’m a European citizen or we are not in the EU and I am not a European citizen.

embraer170 · 10-05-2021 07:45PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Certainly, but thats not the same.

And I would appreciate it if you could be honest and mature enough to accept you misunderstood me.

I may very well have misunderstood your reason for linking to that article, though you still have not clarified what point you were trying to make it it.

I will still never agree with an argument that Irish gov policy today is not to stop people from leaving country.

Darwin · 10-05-2021 07:46PM

saabsaab wrote: »

Can they not travel if they have a valid reason without a fine?

What is a valid reason if it is not on the list? It's then at the complete discretion of whomever is interrogating you.

rogber · 10-05-2021 07:48PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

I see myself as a European citizen. I have a home in county Kildare and a home in county Loulé. I typically spend half the year in one and half the year in the other.

Loulé consistently has lower covid rates that Kildare.

Why am I not allowed to go to my home in Loulé, taking a plane with people who are probably vaccinated and have tested negative to a county with a lower covid prevalence rate??

But I am free to go to Donegal with one of the highest covid rates in Europe on a bus where no one has been tested?

We are either in the EU and I’m a European citizen or we are not in the EU and I am not a European citizen.

But surely you are allowed go home? You have a home in Ireland, you are presumably an Irish citizen. Where's the problem? If asked at the airport, you say you're returning home after a stay abroad.

embraer170 · 10-05-2021 07:53PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

I see myself as a European citizen. I have a home in county Kildare and a home in county Loulé. I typically spend half the year in one and half the year in the other.

Loulé consistently has lower covid rates that Kildare.

Why am I not allowed to go to my home in Loulé, taking a plane with people who are probably vaccinated and have tested negative to a county with a lower covid prevalence rate??

But I am free to go to Donegal with one of the highest covid rates in Europe on a bus where no one has been tested?

We are either in the EU and I’m a European citizen or we are not in the EU and I am not a European citizen.

I imagine the management of a second home (especially with documented proof such as utility bills / local authority tax etc.) would constitute a valid reason for travel to Portugal.

Again, that won't work with partner and kids all showing up at Dublin airport together.

--

With the exception of family holidays, I think most people who look half serious, have one or more relevant pieces of paper in their hand, and can answer 2-3 questions without sweating would not have a problem getting through departure (or arrival immigration) checks.

This is by no means justifying the current government approach (which is totally ridiculous).

Blut2 · 10-05-2021 07:59PM

normanoffside wrote: »

Yeah FF will be shafted at the next election because the people they brought MHQ and travel fines in to appease won't be voting for them anyway.

I'd be surprised if Stephen Donnelly even gets his deposit back.

I'm not a FG voter but I have to admit Leo is playing it very well and positioning FG as the party of reopening already - hes constantly in the media talking of positive things, of the need for reopening measures, of considering business needs etc. FG were very public in their opposition to MHQ too. Whereas Michael Martin and Stephen Donnelly are the opposite. Calling for more restrictions constantly even at this late stage in the game, Martin the other week was even speculating about a potential lockdown needed this winter...

In a few months time when covid is effectively beaten the covid fear will be long forgotten by the electorate. But come October when we get the first "covid budget" with tax rises and spending cuts to pay for everything, you can bet FG will be successfully painting FF as "the party of extended lockdowns that broke the country's finances".

For everyone who personally suffered as a result of the MHQ debacle, which is entirely down to FF's doing, its going to be fun viewing.

naufragos123 · 10-05-2021 08:06PM

embraer170 wrote: »

I imagine the management of a second home (especially with documented proof such as utility bills / local authority tax etc.) would constitute a valid reason for travel to Portugal.

Again, that won't work with partner and kids all showing up at Dublin airport together.

--

With the exception of family holidays, I think most people who look half serious, have one or more relevant pieces of paper in their hand, and can answer 2-3 questions without sweating would not have a problem getting through departure (or arrival immigration) checks.

This is by no means justifying the current government approach (which is totally ridiculous).

But I think the point is that people should not be forced into that position, certainly not indefinitely as is currently the case. Strict border controls are necessary in the early stages of a pandemic where you are dealing with the unknown. At this point 14 months later it's tyrannical and it currently exists nowhere else in the EU.

People should not have to "look half serious", should not have to "have one or more relevant pieces of paper in their hand" to exercise their democratic right to travel to another EU country, whether to visit a holiday home or indeed to just holiday. It is demeaning to ordinary law abiding citizens many of whom are now vaccinated and all of whom will be travelling with a negative PCR. As another poster pointed out, you can go on a bus to Donegal with no controls but try to leave the country and you're interrogated by the Gardai and possibly fined. It's unacceptable.

saabsaab · 10-05-2021 08:09PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

So the government isn’t stopping travel, they’re just restricting it to the wealthy. That’s grand then. Sure why would anyone have issues with that?

I don't really that's the way it used to be before the masses started flying everywhere. Flights are too cheap no excise on fuel is crazy.

embraer170 · 10-05-2021 08:10PM

naufragos123 wrote: »

People should not have to "look half serious", should not have to "have one or more relevant pieces of paper in their hand" to exercise their democratic right to travel to another EU country, whether to visit a holiday home or indeed to just holiday. It is demeaning to ordinary law abiding citizens many of whom are now vaccinated and all of whom will be travelling with a negative PCR. As another poster pointed out, you can go on a bus to Donegal with no controls but try to leave the country and you're interrogated by the Gardai and possibly fined. It's unacceptable.

I 100% agree with you. People should not be put into this position, but I was just saying that there are options for some people.

To be honest the current situation reminds me of the travel restrictions put on certain ethnic populations during wars, or as late as the 90s in Central and Eastern Europe as a means of state control.

For some reason, people are happy enough to accept it.

Happydays2020 · 10-05-2021 08:13PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

So the government isn’t stopping travel, they’re just restricting it to the wealthy. That’s grand then. Sure why would anyone have issues with that?

There are a few themes to this:

A> Government decide to ban meal deals in supermarkets. Who is affected by the dinner meal for two with wine for 14 euros?

B> Government does not like that people go to the Canary Islands to escape Covid, bad weather and high costs (plus no meal deals) - Introduce 2000 departure tax for travel.

C> Government does not like people drinking cheapish alcohol so introduces a minimum price using a metric of low alcohol beer in 440ml cans.

CruelSummer · 10-05-2021 08:25PM

Blut2 wrote: »

I'm not a FG voter but I have to admit Leo is playing it very well and positioning FG as the party of reopening already - hes constantly in the media talking of positive things, of the need for reopening measures, of considering business needs etc. FG were very public in their opposition to MHQ too. Whereas Michael Martin and Stephen Donnelly are the opposite. Calling for more restrictions constantly even at this late stage in the game, Martin the other week was even speculating about a potential lockdown needed this winter...

In a few months time when covid is effectively beaten the covid fear will be long forgotten by the electorate. But come October when we get the first "covid budget" with tax rises and spending cuts to pay for everything, you can bet FG will be successfully painting FF as "the party of extended lockdowns that broke the country's finances".

For everyone who personally suffered as a result of the MHQ debacle, which is entirely down to FF's doing, its going to be fun viewing.

I’m not surprised the fine has been reimposed for May. What’s lacking is certainty, dates & a timetable for the reopening of EU travel. The Dutch prime minister informed his population yesterday that they would be implementing the Green Cert immediately. There’s certainty for the Dutch.

As for your assertion that mandatory hotel quarantine was ‘entirely FF’s doing’. Not so fast.
Let’s just list out the parties that hounded the Government day in, day out for this approach, aided by a media also pushing the issue daily:
Sinn Féin
Social Democrats
Labour
People before Profit

The opposition were relentless in this and I’m skeptical of anyone trying to solely blame FF for MHQ, almost like they’re trying to save the face of the opposition.

Valhallapt · 10-05-2021 08:28PM

naufragos123 wrote: »

But I think the point is that people should not be forced into that position, certainly not indefinitely as is currently the case. Strict border controls are necessary in the early stages of a pandemic where you are dealing with the unknown. At this point 14 months later it's tyrannical and it currently exists nowhere else in the EU.

People should not have to "look half serious", should not have to "have one or more relevant pieces of paper in their hand" to exercise their democratic right to travel to another EU country, whether to visit a holiday home or indeed to just holiday. It is demeaning to ordinary law abiding citizens many of whom are now vaccinated and all of whom will be travelling with a negative PCR. As another poster pointed out, you can go on a bus to Donegal with no controls but try to leave the country and you're interrogated by the Gardai and possibly fined. It's unacceptable.

Exactly last Feb March April, there was merit to closing airports. It’s about a year too late now as we approach 40% vaccination rates.

Under EU law I should have the right to travel to another part of the EU, this right is being denied. Fair enough If they want to block my return, but how can they block my departure when the destination is welcoming me?

I’ll go regardless, I’ll either pay the fine or go via the uk, but the law is an ass in this case.

Blut2 · 10-05-2021 08:51PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

As for your assertion that mandatory hotel quarantine was ‘entirely FF’s doing’. Not so fast.
Let’s just list out the parties that hounded the Government day in, day out for this approach, aided by a media also pushing the issue daily:
Sinn Féin
Social Democrats
Labour
People before Profit

The opposition were relentless in this and I’m skeptical of anyone trying to solely blame FF for MHQ, almost like they’re trying to save the face of the opposition.

The opposition (and media) were absolutely in the wrong for their screaming for MHQ, despite all evidence and facts showing its ineffectiveness (and damage to Irish citizen's lives). But at the end of the day none of them are in government, in a position to pass laws.

Of the parties in government its been shown that FF, and Stephen Donnelly in particular, were the driving force behind all of our travel restrictions being brought in. FG were very public in being against them, FF had to go to bat to drag the restrictions into being. And so the buck stops with FF. Without their support of MHQ it never would have been imposed.

Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

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