Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

zebastein

MaryBrowne21 wrote: »

Has anyone here successfully travelled abroad and avoided the fine? If so what were the grounds you used and what proof did you provide?

Thanks!

I have heard of people who traveled successfully (they had essential reasons anyway) and there was just no gardai presence at the airport.


They would have to check flights from 6h to 23h, at both terminals at the same time.

Valhallapt

MaryBrowne21 wrote: »

Has anyone here successfully travelled abroad and avoided the fine? If so what were the grounds you used and what proof did you provide?

Thanks!

I’ve spoken to people working in the airport, there is still thousands of people travelling every day. The gardai are waving most straight through, then it’s a friendly chat with the rest, is you journey essential? Are you sure it’s essential? Then people are allowed through. Might be a bit more difficult with the kids having their bucket and spades on show though...

gozunda

Valhallapt wrote: »

Yes I do, in 1992 Ireland voted in favour of the Maastricht treaty which guaranteed my European citizenship and enshrined my right to travel, live and work in any part of the eu.

Are we to start to unpick other referendums as you don’t like them?

All the above have been answered for you - but you seem to still not be grasping the basics

•Your right to travel within the EU remains unaffected

•Your right to live in any part of the EU remains unaffected

•Your right to work in any part of the EU remains unaffected

Where you need to travel for essential reasons eg work, residence etc you will not face any fine or restriction leaving Ireland. Where you decide to travel for non essential reasons eg holiday in Playa del Tontos etc you may face a fine but you will not be stopped leaving the country.

Atm the advice due to the current pandemic remains the same

There is a Government Advisory in operation against all non-essential international travel. Travel restrictions are in place to protect public health and to mitigate the risk of new variants of COVID-19 entering the country. 

Valhallapt wrote: »

To clarify:
If I am vaccinated I can travel from India to Ireland with no fine or MHQ.

•A person who is exempt from mandatory hotel quarantine or released from hotel quarantine early is still legally required to have a negative pre-departure RT-PCR test and to complete a period of self-quarantine at home/at the address given on the Passenger Locator Form.

•Where your journey is essential there is no fine.

Valhallapt wrote: »

I can travel freely within the UK and NI, no need for any tests.

•Well no. Travel from England/Wales/Scotland to Ireland requires a negative PCR test.

Valhallapt wrote: »

I cannot travel to another part of Europe with a lower infection rate, even if I am a European citizen and vaccinated and have a negative pcr?

•Yes you can. Where your journey is for essential reasons - you're free to go where you like presuming you do not breach the destination countries restrictions. Where your journey is for non essential reasons - see above .

How is any of that difficult to understand?

brickster69

Looks like France, Italy, Greece & Spain will not be added to the green list until end of June at the earliest

https://metro.co.uk/2021/05/11/france-greece-and-spain-to-be-missed-off-next-green-list-update-14556553/

Chuck Norris 2021

brickster69 wrote: »

Looks like France, Italy, Greece & Spain will not be added to the green list until end of June at the earliest

https://metro.co.uk/2021/05/11/france-greece-and-spain-to-be-missed-off-next-green-list-update-14556553/

At least they won't be fined for leaving their country. I'd be delighted to be able to go somewhere and isolate/test on return . I'd imagine most of the main EU destinations will be on their amber list. Some won't be open regardless until early June.

Tazz T

For those interested in travelling through the north, the NHS app will be used as a the 'vaccine passport' from next Monday when travel restrictions are lifted, so certainly, in the short term, it's unclear how ROI travellers will be able to fly from Belfast without additional restrictions.

Pre-departure tests still required regardless, which seems to make it a bit pointless. Right now, the EU cert is looking like the easier format if introduced here promptly (which isn't highly likely).

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57070185

normanoffside

MaryBrowne21 wrote: »

Has anyone here successfully travelled abroad and avoided the fine? If so what were the grounds you used and what proof did you provide?

Thanks!

Just avoid the Gardai by going through the fast check security.

Lumen

Valhallapt wrote: »

I’ve spoken to people working in the airport, there is still thousands of people travelling every day. The gardai are waving most straight through, then it’s a friendly chat with the rest, is you journey essential? Are you sure it’s essential? Then people are allowed through. Might be a bit more difficult with the kids having their bucket and spades on show though...

Simple solution: split the family in two.

Wife says: we're travelling to meet their father. We're currently separated.
Husband says: we're travelling to meet their mother. We're currently separated.

:pac:

Corholio

Tazz T wrote: »

For those interested in travelling through the north, the NHS app will be used as a the 'vaccine passport' from next Monday when travel restrictions are lifted, so certainly, in the short term, it's unclear how ROI travellers will be able to fly from Belfast without additional restrictions.

Pre-departure tests still required regardless, which seems to make it a bit pointless. Right now, the EU cert is looking like the easier format if introduced here promptly (which isn't highly likely).

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57070185

NI haven't announced their travel plans yet so it's all wait and see on dates. Scotland announced that some travel will start from May 24th. I don't think the NHS app will be the only thing allowed if flying from the North, could be wrong but I don't think so.

M_Murphy57

Tazz T wrote: »

For those interested in travelling through the north, the NHS app will be used as a the 'vaccine passport' from next Monday when travel restrictions are lifted, so certainly, in the short term, it's unclear how ROI travellers will be able to fly from Belfast without additional restrictions.

Pre-departure tests still required regardless, which seems to make it a bit pointless. Right now, the EU cert is looking like the easier format if introduced here promptly (which isn't highly likely).

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57070185

Belfast for me still means no 2k fine, no interrogation by gards and if I'm only going to London and back no expensive PCR tests.

Still beats Dublin in the current climate. An hour up the road to travel and be treated like an adult, not a bold child in need of the wooden spoon? I'll take it.

Chuck Norris 2021

M_Murphy57 wrote: »

Belfast for me still means no 2k fine, no interrogation by gards and if I'm only going to London and back no expensive PCR tests.

Still beats Dublin in the current climate. An hour up the road to travel and be treated like an adult, not a bold child in need of the wooden spoon? I'll take it.

Fine for one person to leave the country - €2000

Fine for having a wedding with 100 guests, taking up huge Garda resources and instigating court proceedings - €3000

Not exactly 'proportional' is it? :rolleyes:

Marcusm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

The thing is Marcus, as others countered, you misrepresent the treaties. There is no golden rule guaranteeing the right to a holiday or even the right to leave. You know this, I know this. This is why multiple borders have been closed over the last year. The freedom of movement is not absolute and refers to accepting oncoming migrants. Not outgoing tourism.

Secondly, why muddy the water? No non resident is being denied permission to return home so why are you mentioning it?

Third, yes the legislation is specific and there is no argument here. The simple facts, the state is not stopping people leaving. So again, even accepting your view of freedom of movement, it's not being denied.

Again, my own views aren't coming into this. It is what it is regardless of if I like it or not.

A large fine as an disincentive to travel is a restriction on the rights of free movement. The grounds for limiting it relate to public order, security or health. The closure of borders around Europe reflect this. The problem is that the “essential” is uncorrelated with public health, security or order. The fine is coercive rather than punitive. They don’t want a load of people to go abroad because they’ll come back! I cannot accept receiving a fine and there is no effective method to confirm that my travel is essential. I don’t want to evade the fine through Belfast or the fast track lane (although I’d generally use it any way through frequent flyer cards rather than cash). It’s just another example of poorly thought out law failing to achieve its aim.

MaryBrowne21

MaryBrowne21 wrote: »

Has anyone here successfully travelled abroad and avoided the fine? If so what were the grounds you used and what proof did you provide?

Thanks!

I was travelling to see my family. Since restrictions have come in I have travelled 3 times. 4 times since Covid messing started last March. My reduced travel is as a result of

• Cancelled flights
• changed flights
• local restrictions in Spain
• Quarantine requirements on return

I provided no proof but could have produced birth certs and my own Resident card if needed (but technically Im not a Spanish resident anymore). You are not required to prove all the scenarios and 99% of travellers are taken on their word. Sadly the fines appear to be mostly a mix of people that just plain admit their intentions or people that refuse to meet the Gardai halfway. Those people will probable also not pay the fine and win the case in court if they do take the time to produce some evidence of their essential travel.

Chuck Norris 2021 wrote: »

At least they won't be fined for leaving their country. I'd be delighted to be able to go somewhere and isolate/test on return . I'd imagine most of the main EU destinations will be on their amber list. Some won't be open regardless until early June.

I posted only a few days ago about how 2 weeks ago my town in Spain was on lockdown and the fine was 600 for leaving the town nevermind the country!

Lumen wrote: »

This is particularly relevant for those who will apply for citizenship in future, who are also those most wanting to travel to see family in other countries.

For these people isn't not a just about getting the fine, and it's nothing like a tax.

That doesnt apply to FCPN payments. Only court convictions count. If you pay the fine, it will not show up and will not interfere with any vetting applications. Same as public order and traffic fines dealt with this way (Is littering the same?)

Marcusm wrote: »

A large fine as an disincentive to travel is a restriction on the rights of free movement.

I disagree as you continue to once again lump in all forms of travel and all reason. We both know leaving your country of residence to go on holiday is not a guaranteed right. In regards the fine being too large, thats your opinion, you cannot say as a fact as the courts have not ruled on it. Time will tell.

Marcusm wrote: »

The grounds for limiting it relate to public order, security or health. The closure of borders around Europe reflect this. The problem is that the “essential” is uncorrelated with public health, security or order.

Again, you have the right to to travel to another EU country in that they must accept you as an equal of their own citizens and even thats not absolute. Nothing in it about being allowed leave your residency to go on holiday. Spain as of 2 weeks ago, refused to allow myself leave a town of less than 50 thousand people UNLESS I was returning home to Ireland as an Irish resident. My family were not permitted to leave. In January I was not permitted to board my domestic flight until I could prove that A, I had a connecting flight and B, was returning to my place of residence outside Spain. The 'essential' is absolutely in compliance and is standard across the bloc.

Marcusm wrote: »

The fine is coercive rather than punitive.

You are not making any point here other than stating a basic fact that I myself stated. All fines are coercive primarilily. They exist to reduce the number of acts by stating "If you do that, we will punish you".

Marcusm wrote: »

Marcusm wrote: »

I cannot accept receiving a fine and there is no effective method to confirm that my travel is essential.

Are we discussing the house? Well allow me to make a suggestion, in most cases if someone can decide not to travel then it wasnt essential. In your case, while you may feel angry about the fine, the 2k must be more than the cost of not going or you still would. Dont misunderstand me here, again Im fine with you travelling. Im fine personally with everyone travelling. I understand looking after a home build / repair is important. if its 'essential' comes down to interpretation as all laws do. Again, the Garda then if needed, the Judge and possible the high court. Thats hardly unique to this situation. Its also not a case, despite the scaremongering, that people are being fined left, right and center. Most people give a reasonable answer and off they go. If you need to travel because there is a problem with the property and local intervention hasnt resolved it, then go.

Marcusm wrote: »

I don’t want to evade the fine through Belfast or the fast track lane (although I’d generally use it any way through frequent flyer cards rather than cash).

ok, not much I can say to that. Its your choice. Again my point was that IF people decide to travel, they will not physically be stopped. You accept that I am correct yes? You COULD physically travel.

Marcusm wrote: »

It’s just another example of poorly thought out law failing to achieve its aim.

Possible so, I again need to repeat that I am not commenting on that or showing any support for the restrictions. I just feel its important in a thread like this, that we keep it factual. So far you dont appear to really be arguing anything with me regarding the law.

The Truth Hurts wrote: »

He is flying back to London and then onto Belfast in 2 weeks time

Why not direct with Ryanair or through Madrid? Malaga flights are chopping and changing all the time. Messy when you need to keep trying to match up with a connecting flight. Especially with Ryanair who seem to deliberately put their flights at bad times

pc7

Lumen wrote: »

Simple solution: split the family in two.

Wife says: we're travelling to meet their father. We're currently separated.
Husband says: we're travelling to meet their mother. We're currently separated.

:pac:

That is genius

deckie66

gozunda wrote: »

All the above have been answered for you - but you seem to still not be grasping the basics

•Your right to travel within the EU remains unaffected

•Your right to live in any part of the EU remains unaffected

•Your right to work in any part of the EU remains unaffected

Where you need to travel for essential reasons eg work, residence etc you will not face any fine or restriction leaving Ireland. Where you decide to travel for non essential reasons eg holiday in Playa del Tontos etc you may face a fine but you will not be stopped leaving the country.

Atm the advice due to the current pandemic remains the same





•A person who is exempt from mandatory hotel quarantine or released from hotel quarantine early is still legally required to have a negative pre-departure RT-PCR test and to complete a period of self-quarantine at home/at the address given on the Passenger Locator Form.

•Where your journey is essential there is no fine.



•Well no. Travel from England/Wales/Scotland to Ireland requires a negative PCR test.



•Yes you can. Where your journey is for essential reasons - you're free to go where you like presuming you do not breach the destination countries restrictions. Where your journey is for non essential reasons - see above .

How is any of that difficult to understand?

the fine of €2k is a clear barrier to mobility and would be struck down by the ECJ

naufragos123

Valhallapt wrote: »

I’ve spoken to people working in the airport, there is still thousands of people travelling every day. The gardai are waving most straight through, then it’s a friendly chat with the rest, is you journey essential? Are you sure it’s essential? Then people are allowed through. Might be a bit more difficult with the kids having their bucket and spades on show though...

Does anyone know if the Gardai are checking the people who are getting assistance at the airport, ie those requiring wheelchairs to go through customs and board the aircraft?

zebastein

brickster69 wrote: »

Looks like France, Italy, Greece & Spain will not be added to the green list until end of June at the earliest

https://metro.co.uk/2021/05/11/france-greece-and-spain-to-be-missed-off-next-green-list-update-14556553/

That is really a guessing game at this stage.


Case numbers are collapsing in Europe: -18% cases in 7days in France, -18% in Italy, -22% in Germany , -21% in Spain.


I don't like predictions but if the trend continues (it can either slow down as the countries relax their restrictions, or speed up as the vaccination ramps up), the case numbers and incidence rate would be divided by 2 in 3 weeks time.



The 7days incidence rate in Ireland is currently 582/million people.
1,902 for France, 1,086 for Italy, 876 for Spain.
They can be under our current incidence rate in 3weeks time. If we reopen our country with this incidence rate and 30% vaccinated, we can hope to reopen to other countries that have the same incidence rate and 50% vaccinated in 3weeks time.

naufragos123

naufragos123 wrote: »

Does anyone know if the Gardai are checking the people who are getting assistance at the airport, ie those requiring wheelchairs to go through customs and board the aircraft?

As far as I know, no

gozunda

deckie66 wrote: »

the fine of €2k is a clear barrier to mobility and would be struck down by the ECJ

Mobility? You mean freedom to travel under eu law which guarantees the right to travel for essential reasons ? That remains unchanged.
You can still travel for essential reasons including medical, work, residencency etc. At present there is a fine to discourage non essential travel inlight of the current pandemic.

The fine is not a 'barrier'. If you wish to go on your holiday and disregarded the advisory on non essential travel then you may indeed have to pay a fine to do so. But no one will stop you going regardless.

It remains the same fine has been in operation now for some time and has not been struck down by the ECJ

Beasty

Threads merged

Skippette

The Guardian are reporting:

European Union governments been discussing how a Covid certificate could allow countries to open up for tourism and help citizens travel more freely across the 27-nation bloc.

Here are some of the key takeaways, via Reuters:

A Covid certificate would be handed out for free by health authorities in EU countries to people who received a vaccine, had a negative test or are immune, having recovered from Covid.

No one will be obliged to use the EU certificate, the European Parliament says.

Portugal, which holds the EU’s rotating presidency, hopes for political agreement on the deal by the end of May to enable the certificate to be operational by 21 June.

Negotiators must decide whether faster, but less accurate, Covid-19 antigen tests can be included in the certificate.
The certificate could be a paper or a digital document, with a QR code carrying encoded data that would be uploaded to the central system to allow verification in other EU countries through a single gateway.

EU negotiators must still agree if all vaccines can be considered for the certificate, or only those approved by the European Medicines Agency.

A dry run is due to start involving more than a dozen EU countries including France and Spain, while a full rollout of the system in all member states is planned in June.

Skippette

They have also said:

Spain will allow Britons to enter the country without a negative PCR test from 20 May, as long as the UK’s infection rates continue declining, the Spanish tourism minister said on Tuesday.

“They could come from 20 May onwards without a PCR if the incidence rates are below the range currently under review, which is around 50 cases per 100,000 people”, Reyes Maroto told reporters after a weekly cabinet meeting.

The announcement follows Spain exiting its six-month state of emergency on Sunday, ending bans on traveling between regions and relaxing many curbs on social gatherings.

Looking up our own stats:
Currently our 14 day average per 100,000 is 97.57 and our positivity test rate is 2.5, so we have a bit to go to get it under the 50 but we are getting there, slowly chipping away at it. Fingers crossed!

Valhallapt

Skippette wrote: »

They have also said:

Spain will allow Britons to enter the country without a negative PCR test from 20 May, as long as the UK’s infection rates continue declining, the Spanish tourism minister said on Tuesday.

“They could come from 20 May onwards without a PCR if the incidence rates are below the range currently under review, which is around 50 cases per 100,000 people”, Reyes Maroto told reporters after a weekly cabinet meeting.

The announcement follows Spain exiting its six-month state of emergency on Sunday, ending bans on traveling between regions and relaxing many curbs on social gatherings.

Looking up our own stats:
Currently our 14 day average per 100,000 is 97.57 and our positivity test rate is 2.5, so we have a bit to go to get it under the 50 but we are getting there, slowly chipping away at it. Fingers crossed!

That is the best news I’ve read all day! Thanks, level heads are taking back control.

Valhallapt

Skippette wrote: »

Negotiators must decide whether faster, but less accurate, Covid-19 antigen tests can be included

I presume the NEPHET crew will now take to Twitter to call the EU negotiators as “snake oil salesmen”

gozunda

Marcusm wrote: »

A large fine as an disincentive to travel is a restriction on the rights of free movement. The grounds for limiting it relate to public order, security or health. The closure of borders around Europe reflect this. The problem is that the “essential” is uncorrelated with public health, security or order. The fine is coercive rather than punitive. They don’t want a load of people to go abroad because they’ll come back! I cannot accept receiving a fine and there is no effective method to confirm that my travel is essential. I don’t want to evade the fine through Belfast or the fast track lane (although I’d generally use it any way through frequent flyer cards rather than cash). It’s just another example of poorly thought out law failing to achieve its aim.

How do you figure that out?

Under EU law travel restrictions related to the current Pandemic fall under public health grounds

This the current advisory here atm

There is a Government Advisory in operation against all non-essential international travel. Travel restrictions are in place to protect public health and to mitigate the risk of new variants of COVID-19 entering the country. 

The fine in question is simply designed to dispersuade people travelling for non essential reasons.

Skippette

Valhallapt wrote: »

That is the best news I’ve read all day! Thanks, level heads are taking back control.

I'm not getting too excited yet. The tourism minister in Spain is and has been very eager to get tourism going again but currently third country national's are not allowed in. Current restrictions on non EU members are in place until the 31st of May.

I presume a bit like our own, they'll be reviewed before then but I'd take what the tourism minister says with a pinch of salt.

All the same though.....I'm feeling a bit more optimistic!

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

Are we discussing the house? Well allow me to make a suggestion, in most cases if someone can decide not to travel then it wasnt essential. In your case, while you may feel angry about the fine, the 2k must be more than the cost of not going or you still would. Dont misunderstand me here, again Im fine with you travelling. Im fine personally with everyone travelling. I understand looking after a home build / repair is important. if its 'essential' comes down to interpretation as all laws do. Again, the Garda then if needed, the Judge and possible the high court. Thats hardly unique to this situation. Its also not a case, despite the scaremongering, that people are being fined left, right and center. Most people give a reasonable answer and off they go. If you need to travel because there is a problem with the property and local intervention hasnt resolved it, then go.



ok, not much I can say to that. Its your choice. Again my point was that IF people decide to travel, they will not physically be stopped. You accept that I am correct yes? You COULD physically travel.

It is about a newly purchased house which I haven’t seen since the sale closed on which a reasonably expensive renovation project is being undertaken without the ability to inspect. I would classify that as “family business” or similar and would love to have clarity. My absence is certainly costing me more than €2k but my issue is reputation all; I cannot afford to pay a fine or engage in the judicial process to have it removed. There’s only so much you can do on video walk through a etc. The project manager is good but unsupervised they would already have spent many times the fine in unnecessary overages.

The restrictions in Spain were akin to our 5km the solely county based travel. We are in a different position now and that is my point. The public health exception is unjustified at this point. I guess what frustrates me. OST is the creep, change from 4 May until 10 May only to spring it out to 2 June.

I suspect as a man travelling alone with a sheaf of papers proving the necessity would get me through the Gardai. I guess if it isn’t lifted on 2 June then I will have to deal with it then.

zambrotta11

The Truth Hurts wrote: »

I have just got back from leaving the father at the airport. Went early in case there was checkpoints etc...Hes off on the 3.30 Malaga flight. No Gardai to be seen outside or approaching airport.
Father text there to say went through fast check security like he usually would and never seen 1 Gardai and nobody has asked why hes going etc...

He is flying back to London and then onto Belfast in 2 weeks time

How does the travelling through Belfast work? I have been looking into it for myself and the UK government website says

Before you travel to the UK, you must:

book 2 COVID-19 tests for when you quarantine in the UK, unless your job means you’re exempt

provide your contact details by completing the online passenger locator form

provide proof of a negative COVID-19 test before you leave for the UK

In the passenger locator form you have to input a code for the day 2 and day 8 test kit you have purchased and it is a required field, and these are around £200. Even though people won't be staying to do the tests, because you will be going straight across the border, these doesn't seem to be an option to fill out the form without buying a test kit.

Maybe I am missing something, but £200 is still pretty steep if you have to purchase a test kit.

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

It is about a newly purchased house which I haven’t seen since the sale closed on which a reasonably expensive renovation project is being undertaken without the ability to inspect. I would classify that as “family business” or similar and would love to have clarity. My absence is certainly costing me more than €2k but my issue is reputation all; I cannot afford to pay a fine or engage in the judicial process to have it removed. There’s only so much you can do on video walk through a etc. The project manager is good but unsupervised they would already have spent many times the fine in unnecessary overages.

The restrictions in Spain were akin to our 5km the solely county based travel. We are in a different position now and that is my point. The public health exception is unjustified at this point. I guess what frustrates me. OST is the creep, change from 4 May until 10 May only to spring it out to 2 June.

I suspect as a man travelling alone with a sheaf of papers proving the necessity would get me through the Gardai. I guess if it isn’t lifted on 2 June then I will have to deal with it then.

I don't understand how it can be costing you more but yet you can't afford the fine. That's your business though. The reality is you can travel, you have made the decision not too after weighing the options up. That's all I said, that people can still travel. The other user, for some reason couldn't grasp that.

If you are so confident that the eu will strike it down I assume you made the complaint? Your costs would almost certainly be covered following your victory in a review.

And yes, the change was frustrating

Marcusm

zambrotta11 wrote: »

How does the travelling through Belfast work? I have been looking into it for myself and the UK government website says



In the passenger locator form you have to input a code for the day 2 and day 8 test kit you have purchased and it is a required field, and these are around £200. Even though people won't be staying to do the tests, because you will be going straight across the border, these doesn't seem to be an option to fill out the form without buying a test kit.

Maybe I am missing something, but £200 is still pretty steep if you have to purchase a test kit.

I don’t think there are any non-U.K. departures or arrivals at either Belfast airport at the moment.