Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

gozunda · 10-05-2021 04:43PM

Lumen wrote: »

We do not have a "ban on international travel for tourism/ holiday purposes". We have a ban on travelling to ports and airports for "non-essential" reasons. There is no equivalence.

Well if you insist on being pedantic I can't help you with that. But let me spell it out simply. Holidays abroad are not considered an essential reason for international travel. Is that OK for you?

Lumen wrote: »

If I want to travel to France I can do so, provided that I obey the public health measures in place on arrival. And then when I travel back, I can comply with whatever rules are in place back here. So I don't actually have a massive problem with quarantine, MHQ or otherwise, whichever country applies it. Essentially, if you have enough of a want/need to travel you can put up with the inconvenience and/or expense.

Didn't say otherwise. Although if you are traveling for non essential reasons you may wish to be aware of the actual wording of the current advisory against non essential international travel

There is a Government Advisory in operation against all non-essential international travel. Travel restrictions are in place to protect public health and to mitigate the risk of new variants of COVID-19 entering the country.

https://www.dfa.ie/travel/travel-advice/coronavirus/general-covid-19-travel-advisory/

Lumen wrote: »

The ban on travelling to ports and airports is different. It is a criminal offence, not a matter or expense or convenience. There is no justification for it, which is why no other EU country has done it.

Again individual countries are not obliged to do absolutely everything else cother EU countries do. Is there a justification for this measures? Judging by some of our holidaymakers such as the Dubai two - I reckon its more than justified if it discourages people from traveling and if it doesn't then people will be fined. It's an easy one to avoid being hit with by not travelling tbf.

Lumen wrote: »

Why are you even attempting to justify this? Because "abundance of caution"?

Did I state I was justifying it? This is a discussion - you know where things get discussed. But do you mean do I support the idea of a free for all on international travel atm? No I don't. There will be time enough to get pissed on Sangria on a beach somewhere abroad or whatever in the not to distant future imho.

10-05-2021 05:13PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I don't expect them to do a whole lot to be quite honest, but I hope that if enough people submit complaints, write to their TDs, and generally make a fuss about all this, someone will eventually see reason.

It took me all of about 5 minutes and is certainly more likely to have an impact than sitting giving out about things on here.

The TD makes sense. They are sitting in the building, they have a voice and they will be knocking on your door soon enough. THey are elected to represent you so yeah, I get that.

The EU complaint is fine if you accept you are shouting at a wall and its purely venting but theres people here who genuinely believe that it will result in the EU making Ireland drop the restrictions. Look at the comments here and the amount of people that thanked this incorrect statement

Wallander wrote: »

Complaints to the EU will definitely make a difference. The EU was publicly threatening Belgium with legal action this spring for allowing non-essential domestic travel while banning non-essential international travel:

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/eu-continues-to-pressure-belgium-to-put-an-end-to-travel-ban/

One of Ireland's leading EU law experts today says:

https://twitter.com/deckie/status/1391718891043368963

You see, this is the gibberish that I think needs to be challenged. The EU absolutely did NOT threaten any action against Belguim. It suggested.

Belgium ignored completely that pressure because as I have pointed out, the EU has no authoritive powers in this regards.

Third Belgium IS WITHIN THE SCHENGEN AREA and again, Ireland is not and has retained border control as a sovereign state.

Lumen · 10-05-2021 05:22PM

gozunda wrote: »

Did I state I was justifying it? This is a discussion - you know where things get discussed. But do you mean do I support the idea of a free for all on international travel atm? No I don't.

You're being remarkably evasive. Do you believe that the 2k fine should have been renewed, or not?

10-05-2021 05:27PM

Lumen wrote: »

We do not have a "ban on international travel for tourism/ holiday purposes". We have a ban on travelling to ports and airports for "non-essential" reasons. There is no equivalence.

If I want to travel to France I can do so, provided that I obey the public health measures in place on arrival. And then when I travel back, I can comply with whatever rules are in place back here. So I don't actually have a massive problem with quarantine, MHQ or otherwise, whichever country applies it. Essentially, if you have enough of a want/need to travel you can put up with the inconvenience and/or expense.

The ban on travelling to ports and airports is different. It is a criminal offence, not a matter or expense or convenience. There is no justification for it, which is why no other EU country has done it.

Why are you even attempting to justify this? Because "abundance of caution"?

Multiple countries applied fines and penalties for non essential travel including international. What are you talking about?

At various stages Germany, Belgium, Slovakia, France and Spain (that I know of) did so.

When I travelled into and out of Spain in January I was stopped by a police officer and had to satisfy him that my travel was essential. If it wasnt not only was I subject to a fine but also arrest if I tried to continue. This included showing proof that I was not staying longer than necessary in Madrid to catch a connecting flight.

France was refusing people permission to land if they were not essential or French residents.

Slovakia had mandatory hotel quarantine and a ban on non essential entry.

Valhallapt · 10-05-2021 05:35PM

I’m getting sick of this kip of a country. But I’ll be fined 2k to leave it. Only Ireland. They should have fined people getting on the coffins ships, by their logic that would have prevented the famine.

Lumen · 10-05-2021 05:35PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Multiple countries applied fines and penalties for non essential travel including international. What are you talking about?

At various stages Germany, Belgium, Slovakia, France and Spain (that I know of) did so.

When I travelled into and out of Spain in January I was stopped by a police officer and had to satisfy him that my travel was essential. If it wasnt not only was I subject to a fine but also arrest if I tried to continue. This included showing proof that I was not staying longer than necessary in Madrid to catch a connecting flight.

France was refusing people permission to land if they were not essential or French residents.

Slovakia had mandatory hotel quarantine and a ban on non essential entry.

OK, that's a fair point. Do you know which of those are still in place?

10-05-2021 05:39PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

I’m getting sick of this kip of a country. But I’ll be fined 2k to leave it. Only Ireland. They should have fined people getting on the coffins ships, by their logic that would have prevented the famine.

I believe they were emmigrating? You can too

normanoffside · 10-05-2021 05:41PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I believe they were emmigrating? You can too

How do you prove you are emigrating?

10-05-2021 05:46PM

Lumen wrote: »

OK, that's a fair point. Do you know which of those are still in place?

Depends. Spain has regional stuff going on. Was 600 euro fine for my missus collecting me from the main train station as our town was locked down however by the time I was leaving it had been pulled.

We have to realise that every single country has done it their way and its all personal in regards what we want. Obviously we are in the travel thread so its reasonable to assume we all want to travel and freely. Many people that have no desires to do so are hellfire about it.

I couldnt give a ****e about the pubs reopening but happy out that museums and some social life can resume albeit limited.

Again going back to my little town in Spain. Couldnt leave the actual town, like a scene from Outbreak but yet I could bring the kids to the park after school and enjoy a coffee while they played. I brought my missus to a restaurant and we have a lovely meal outside on date night (yeah, were old and predictable) but yet as soon as we left the outdoor dining area, masks on lest we get a fine on an empty street.

The Spanish I spoke to (anecdotal only I know) think its crazy that we arent allowed on an aeroplane but they also think we are crazy because we dont wear masks in the park.

But yet, despite every single country having their own system and despite those same countries having open borders via Schengen, people still talk absolute nonsense about the Eu making Ireland open the airport.

Heres an overview of restrictions at present, As you can see the EU is not the open skies that some would lead us to believe

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2021/01/25/what-s-the-latest-on-european-travel-restrictions

"The state of Andorra remains under strict travel restrictions with officials advising against all but essential travel. Travel for tourism is currently on hold."

"Austria is currently in lockdown and not open to tourists"

"However, as infection rates around the world continue to rise, Belarus has tightened border controls and foreign arrivals must have a negative coronavirus test result and must isolate for 10 days."

"A state of emergency is currently in place in the Czech Republic until 17 May."

"Denmark is open to essential travel providing travellers have proof of a negative COVID-19 test taken no more than 24 hours before entry. There is also a 10-day quarantine in place."

"A 10-day quarantine period will be applied if you are arriving from an EU/EEA country with an infection rate higher than 150 cases per 100,000 of the population in the last 14 days."

"In France all travel to and from countries outside the EU is banned unless there are pressing grounds for travel."

"Currently, all foreigners arriving in Greece must show a negative test and quarantine for 1 week. For passengers from the UK and UAE, a second mandatory test is also required upon their arrival."

"As a general rule, only Hungarian citizens have been allowed to enter Hungary since 1 September 2020."

"Arrivals from EU or Schengen countries only have to quarantine for 5 days."

"Entry to Latvia is permitted for essential purposes only"

"Anyone arriving in Norway for non-essential reasons is required to quarantine in an approved hotel for 10 days."

"People arriving into Portugal from EU countries where the incidence rate is over 500 cases per 100,000 population may only enter for essential business. Arrivals will have to quarantine for 14 days."

"All arrivals, including from the EU/EEA or Switzerland, will need to provide a negative PCR test result upon arrival and undertake a period of self-isolation. They will also need to register their arrival in an online form."

"Vatican City remains closed to tourists."

Im not saying we arent strict, all I am saying is that restrictions exist in nearly every country. The Pope isnt even home for visitors it seems!

10-05-2021 05:49PM

normanoffside wrote: »

How do you prove you are emigrating?

Generally you will have lots of bags, accomodation and work agreements or college acceptance, etc.

The bigger question and it speaks a lot about the mentality of people they they dont ask it "If I am leaving the country forever, how the **** can I be summoned to court for non essential travel?"

normanoffside · 10-05-2021 05:53PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Generally you will have lots of bags, accomodation and work agreements or college acceptance, etc.

The bigger question and it speaks a lot about the mentality of people they they dont ask it "If I am leaving the country forever, how the **** can I be summoned to court for non essential travel?"

A lot of people who are emigrating (like those on the famine ships) would have none of the above.

Bags would already be checked in when you meet the Gardai at security.
Accommodation booked could be temporary while you are looking for something permanent.
You might not have a job lined up yet.

On your final point: Can you never come back to the country once you emigrate?

embraer170 · 10-05-2021 05:54PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Multiple countries applied fines and penalties for non essential travel including international. What are you talking about?

At various stages Germany, Belgium, Slovakia, France and Spain (that I know of) did so.

I am not aware of Germany ever having a ban on travel. It is true that domestic tourism was (and for the most part still is) forbidden but I am not aware of any foreign travel ban, as long as people respect the quarantine/testing requirements on their return.

It is fair to say that Ireland has gone further than all other EU countries at this stage, which is quite something for a country with a large expat community and a massive group of Irish abroad. Unfortunately both these groups have little to no political representation in Ireland.

Van.Bosch · 10-05-2021 06:03PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

I’m getting sick of this kip of a country. But I’ll be fined 2k to leave it. Only Ireland. They should have fined people getting on the coffins ships, by their logic that would have prevented the famine.

How would it have prevented the famine?

Wallander · 10-05-2021 06:04PM

A few posters are making the point that the EU has no direct control over Irish government policy. That's true.

The point is also raised that other EU countries have had strict travel restrictions over the course of the pandemic. Also true.

That doesn't alter the fact that Ireland currently has the severest travel restrictions in the EU and the EU has an active interest in working against excessive restrictions. It has succeeded too, as 2021 has seen less severe restrictions around Europe than the start of the pandemic - sometimes it has used more direct pressure, sometimes it has used more subtle pressure, but it is clearly not a case of 27 countries doing whatever the hell they feel like, otherwise Ireland wouldn't be the only country by now with mandatory hotel quarantine.

naufragos123 · 10-05-2021 06:04PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Depends. Spain has regional stuff going on. Was 600 euro fine for my missus collecting me from the main train station as our town was locked down however by the time I was leaving it had been pulled.

We have to realise that every single country has done it their way and its all personal in regards what we want. Obviously we are in the travel thread so its reasonable to assume we all want to travel and freely. Many people that have no desires to do so are hellfire about it.

I couldnt give a ****e about the pubs reopening but happy out that museums and some social life can resume albeit limited.

Again going back to my little town in Spain. Couldnt leave the actual town, like a scene from Outbreak but yet I could bring the kids to the park after school and enjoy a coffee while they played. I brought my missus to a restaurant and we have a lovely meal outside on date night (yeah, were old and predictable) but yet as soon as we left the outdoor dining area, masks on lest we get a fine on an empty street.

The Spanish I spoke to (anecdotal only I know) think its crazy that we arent allowed on an aeroplane but they also think we are crazy because we dont wear masks in the park.

But yet, despite every single country having their own system and despite those same countries having open borders via Schengen, people still talk absolute nonsense about the Eu making Ireland open the airport.

I don't think it's nonsense at all. It's part of the democratic structure to make your voice heard as a citizen. That's what people on this very helpful thread are proposing to do in wanting to complain to the EU and lobby TDs. Whether it does any good is another question. But carry that rather defeatist logic to the end and ask does voting do any good? Do people have any power? Do institutions not represent the people? Are they not obliged to listen to the people? Is there any point at all in taking an interest in the issues?

You seem to imply negative answers to all the above questions. By the sheer volume of your posts it appears to bother you that people want to appeal to the institutions. Why is that?

Ray Donovan · 10-05-2021 06:10PM

So I have emailed my 5 TD's, my 5 MEP's and my wife's 4 TD's. And sent my complaint to the European Commission.

But this is the really interesting bit....one of my TD's rang me back within 20 minutes!! He is FG and a former minister and told me he was against the fine and MHQ from the start and it was brought in response to populism.

He basically said that June 9th (well he actually said some day in June when the MHQ needs to be renewed, and I informed him it was June 9th) is the key date and he is hopeful both MHQ and Travel Fine will go on that date.

He never replied when I pressed him on a date for the commencement of the Green Cert.

Fair play to him for ringing me to be fair.

ginoginelli · 10-05-2021 06:10PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

I’m getting sick of this kip of a country. But I’ll be fined 2k to leave it. Only Ireland. They should have fined people getting on the coffins ships, by their logic that would have prevented the famine.

A new low on here. What a classless comment. To compare the famine to any current irish situation, even frivously, is highly offensive.

Please remove.

Hellrazer · 10-05-2021 06:17PM

Ray Donovan wrote: »

So I have emailed my 5 TD's, my 5 MEP's and my wife's 4 TD's. And sent my complaint to the European Commission.

But this is the really interesting bit....one of my TD's rang me back within 20 minutes!! He is FG and a former minister and told me he was against the fine and MHQ from the start and it was brought in response to populism.

He basically said that June 9th (well he actually said some day in June when the MHQ needs to be renewed, and I informed him it was June 9th) is the key date and he is hopeful both MHQ and Travel Fine will go on that date.

He never replied when I pressed him on a date for the commencement of the Green Cert.

Fair play to him for ringing me to be fair.

Not sure where you are but I got a lot more replies than I have in the past - I emailed them all - I reckon some TDs are starting to see the cracks appearing in this coalition and are jumping to reply to their electorate before an election.

Mostly FG TDs are against the MHQ and travel fine from what I can see - At least they are the ones that replied to me anyway. My local FF one replied that he agreed with the extension because it was a health matter. But he also replied when I emailed him about the N4 being a carpark in the evening with the checkpoint on it a few weeks ago saying he agreed with that as well even if it kept ordinary citizens from getting home at a reasonable time....guess who wont be getting my vote in the next election.

10-05-2021 06:19PM

naufragos123 wrote: »

I don't think it's nonsense at all. It's part of the democratic structure to make your voice heard as a citizen. That's what people on this very helpful thread are proposing to do in wanting to complain to the EU and lobby TDs. Whether it does any good is another question. But carry that rather defeatist logic to the end and ask does voting do any good? Do people have any power? Do institutions not represent the people? Are they not obliged to listen to the people? Is there any point at all in taking an interest in the issues?

You seem to imply negative answers to all the above questions. By the sheer volume of your posts it appears to bother you that people want to appeal to the institutions. Why is that?

You appear unable to read full threads, why is that?

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

The TD makes sense. They are sitting in the building, they have a voice and they will be knocking on your door soon enough. THey are elected to represent you so yeah, I get that.

The EU complaint is fine if you accept you are shouting at a wall and its purely venting but theres people here who genuinely believe that it will result in the EU making Ireland drop the restrictions. Look at the comments here and the amount of people that thanked this incorrect statement

Second, your comments about the right to be heard by a TD in no way validate thinking that the EU will force Ireland to open airports or not. Can you explain how that view is not nonsense?

embraer170 wrote: »

I am not aware of Germany ever having a ban on travel. It is true that domestic tourism was (and for the most part still is) forbidden but I am not aware of any foreign travel ban, as long as people respect the quarantine/testing requirements on their return.

It is fair to say that Ireland has gone further than all other EU countries at this stage, which is quite something for a country with a large expat community and a massive group of Irish abroad. Unfortunately both these groups have little to no political representation in Ireland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germany-imposes-effective-travel-ban-on-ireland-from-saturday-1.4471353

Im not arguing or defending. I merely point out the reality of the situation we find ourselves in

normanoffside wrote: »

A lot of people who are emigrating (like those on the famine ships) would have none of the above.

Bags would already be checked in when you meet eh Gardai at security.
Accommodation booked could be temporary while you are looking for something permanent.
You might not have a job lined up yet.

On your final point: Can you never come back to the country once you emigrate?

A, WTF has that got to do with it? thats literal gibberish.

B, Bags would not be checked in meeting the Garda chekpoint on the road outside and you would have a checked bag reciept.

C, You could of course, im not sure what your point is really. Are you suggesting that as you cant prove it in all cases, the Gardai will stop you from travelling? You know they dont right?

D, More gibberish. I suggest seeking the opinion of others, Im not educating you on how fines and summons work.

naufragos123 · 10-05-2021 06:20PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You seem unable to read full threads, why is that?

Second, none of your post addressed the part I called nonsense

Why not answer my question? Why are you so upset that people are appealing to the institutions? I get that you don't want to do that but why are you continually complaining about others wanting to do it? I'm not interested in a tit for tat with you, I'm actually right this minute penning my own letter to my TD which is a better use of expression imo, but I am curious about your stance?

normanoffside · 10-05-2021 06:21PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

Not sure where you are but I got a lot more replies than I have in the past - I emailed them all - I reckon some TDs are starting to see the cracks appearing in this coalition and are jumping to reply to their electorate before an election.

Mostly FG TDs are against the MHQ and travel fine from what I can see - At least they are the ones that replied to me anyway. My local FF one replied that he agreed with the extension because it was a health matter. But he also replied when I emailed him about the N4 being a carpark in the evening with the checkpoint on it a few weeks ago saying he agreed with that as well even if it kept ordinary citizens from getting home at a reasonable time....guess who wont be getting my vote in the next election.

Yeah FF will be shafted at the next election because the people they brought MHQ and travel fines in to appease won't be voting for them anyway.

I'd be surprised if Stephen Donnelly even gets his deposit back.

normanoffside · 10-05-2021 06:23PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

A, WTF has that got to do with it? thats literal gibberish.

B, Bags would not be checked in meeting the Garda chekpoint on the road outside and you would have a checked bag reciept.

C, You could of course, im not sure what your point is really. Are you suggesting that as you cant prove it in all cases, the Gardai will stop you from travelling? You know they dont right?

D, More gibberish. I suggest seeking the opinion of others, Im not educating you on how fines and summons work.

You said that you are not liable to a fine if you are emigrating.
I'm just pointing out that it's hard to prove one way or the other.

10-05-2021 06:27PM

naufragos123 wrote: »

Why not answer my question? Why are you so upset that people are appealing to the institutions? I get that you don't want to do that but why are you continually complaining about others wanting to do it? I'm not interested in a tit for tat with you, I'm actually right this minute penning my own letter to my TD which is a better use of expression imo, but I am curious about your stance?

Have you actually read my posts? Please go back and do so as I took the time to quote myself. Your question is asking me why I am against something I have stated I understand and agree with. Can you show me where I have actually condemned contacting your TD or what comment it is that leads you to believe that is my stance?

My stance is simple, complain all you want BUT the EU will NOT be able to make Ireland change. Generally I complain to someone that can actually take action. Maybe Im just mad

embraer170 · 10-05-2021 06:27PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germany-imposes-effective-travel-ban-on-ireland-from-saturday-1.4471353

Im not arguing or defending. I merely point out the reality of the situation we find ourselves in

No, that is something totally different. Germany never stopped its citizens from leaving the country or travelling abroad (what Ireland is doing now).

Germany put severe restriction on travelling from some countries at times (including Ireland), but even this required only a (i) negative test before return travel, and (ii) home quarantine.

pjohnson · 10-05-2021 06:28PM

embraer170 wrote: »

No, that is something totally different. Germany never stopped its citizens from leaving the country or travelling abroad (what Ireland is doing now).

Germany put severe restriction on travelling to some countries at times (including Ireland), but even this required only a (i) negative test before travel, and (ii) home quarantine on return.

Ireland isnt stopping people. Just pay the fine and you can go happily.

10-05-2021 06:28PM

normanoffside wrote: »

You said that you are not liable to a fine if you are emigrating.
I'm just pointing out that it's hard to prove one way or the other.

I did and its 100& legally correct is it not? Your reply was just silly and picking a fight it seems if thats all you can reply with

embraer170 · 10-05-2021 06:31PM

normanoffside wrote: »

You said that you are not liable to a fine if you are emigrating.
I'm just pointing out that it's hard to prove one way or the other.

Have some proof of a job interview somewhere and there really won't be many grounds for discussion.

Rightfully (or wrongly), any kind of printed piece of paper listing your name and a job interview / medical appointment etc. will get you through the checks on departure.

That is of course a lot more difficult if have a flight to Malaga with a partner and kids on the first day of school holidays.

10-05-2021 06:32PM

embraer170 wrote: »

No, that is something totally different. Germany never stopped its citizens from leaving the country or travelling abroad (what Ireland is doing now).

Germany put severe restriction on travelling to some countries at times (including Ireland), but even this required only a (i) negative test before travel, and (ii) home quarantine on return.

You see, this right here. You have put words in my mouth and made an incorrect statement about Irish restrictions. I never claimed Germany was stopping its citzens leaving and Ireland is not stopping anyone leaving the country. Ireland has not, at any stage stopped a single person from leaving the country for Covid19 reasons.

Ireland, like Germany does stop people leaving for certain lawful purposes. Like being on bail with travel limits or wanted people or attempting to remove a child from another parents custody and so on and so forth. So yes, Germany has stopped its citizens from leaving and will do so again.

You cannot just make up a restriction that doesnt exist, compare them to a situation of your own imagination and then claim foul on my part

embraer170 · 10-05-2021 06:37PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You see, this right here. You are wrong. Ireland is not stopping anyone leaving the country. Ireland has not, at any stage stopped a single person from leaving the country for Covid19 reasons.

Ireland, like Germany does stop people leaving for certain lawful purposes. Like being on bail with travel limits or wanted people or attempting to remove a child from another parents custody and so on and so forth. So yes, Germany has stopped its citizens from leaving and will do so again.

You cannot just make up a restriction that doesnt exist and then claim foul

Sorry, please show me where Germany has stopped its residents/citizens leaving the country for COVID-19 reasons during the 19 Pandemic? If it makes you any happier, I can even narrow it down and say for leisure purposes.

You might not have said it but you were happy to post a link (with no commentary) to say that Germany once imposed a travel ban on Ireland.

And by imposing a €2000 fine, Ireland is definitely stopping people from leaving the country.

pjohnson · 10-05-2021 06:38PM

embraer170 wrote: »

Sorry, please show me where Germany has stopped its residents/citizens leaving the country for COVID-19 reasons during the 19 Pandemic? If it makes you any happier, I can even narrow it down and say for leisure purposes.

When has Ireland more importantly?

Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

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