Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

shatners bassoon · 22-04-2021 09:24AM

political analyst wrote: »

Given that official secrets concern government documents, isn't the government the alleged 'victim' in any case in which the Official Secrets Act has been allegedly breached? If it is, then shouldn't it be left to the government to decide whether to press charges?

The victim doesn't decide whether a crime is prosecuted or not.

Obviously, if a victim doesn't want to testify it makes it a lot harder / impossible to proceed in some cases.

22-04-2021 09:33AM

Important to point out that if the Garda Source for the British Times is correct, then, no protected status for the document and no benefit for Vradakar so there is no crime
Ergo, the DPP will just have the formality of looking at the file and investigation closed

shatners bassoon · 22-04-2021 09:50AM

This thread got away from me but I enjoyed the whooping and hollering over The Times article from the rabid anti-shinners. They only had to wait 600 pages!

I would comment that if a decision has been made that the document was not confidential, it's absolutely bizarre that the investigation has made it this far. If the document isn't confidential then there's no point in investigating the other aspects of the potential charges, surely?

Also, I won't profess to know how the DPP and Gardai liaise during the investigation stage but ascertaining the status of the document is surely a matter for the DPP rather than the Gardai. It's a legal issue rather than an evidential one.

FrancieBrady · 22-04-2021 10:04AM

shatners bassoon wrote: »

This thread got away from me but I enjoyed the whooping and hollering over The Times article from the rabid anti-shinners. They only had to wait 600 pages!

I would comment that if a decision has been made that the document was not confidential, it's absolutely bizarre that the investigation has made it this far. If the document isn't confidential then there's no point in investigating the other aspects of the potential charges, surely?

Also, I won't profess to know how the DPP and Gardai liaise during the investigation stage but ascertaining the status of the document is surely a matter for the DPP rather than the Gardai. It's a legal issue rather than an evidential one.

I would think it is forbidden for the DPP to be telling Gardai his/her thinking in the middle of an investigation tbh. And if he/she was I think there would be questions to be asked there too.

We know nothing of the experience or rank/role of the 'Garda source'. They may turn out to be right but the whooping and hollering is certainly a tad premature.

My feeling always was is that he will get a rap over the knuckles in a 'not enough evidence to prosecute' kind of way.

I'd be surprised if the DPP gives carte blanche for TD's to knowingly engage in wrongdoing. Unprecedented surely?

22-04-2021 10:15AM

I personally wouldn't be in favour of depriving anyone of their Niche enjoyment in this thread
I would continue to advise finding a new box set though as the British times has not only leaked the Finale of this one,they leaked the end of the show.

McMurphy · 22-04-2021 10:21AM

Marine Layer wrote: »

I personally wouldn't be in favour of depriving anyone of their Niche enjoyment in this thread
I would continue to advise finding a new box set though as the British times has not only leaked the Finale of this one,they leaked the end of the show.

If I'm not mistaken, there were many of the "pro Leo" camp completely dissing the times when they were first out of the blocks, weeks before anyone else with their revelation's that the preliminary investigation was upgraded to the criminal one.

Now their word seems to be gospel.

Just an observation.

blanch152 · 22-04-2021 10:22AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I would think it is forbidden for the DPP to be telling Gardai his/her thinking in the middle of an investigation tbh. And if he/she was I think there would be questions to be asked there too.

We know nothing of the experience or rank/role of the 'Garda source'. They may turn out to be right but the whooping and hollering is certainly a tad premature.

My feeling always was is that he will get a rap over the knuckles in a 'not enough evidence to prosecute' kind of way.

I'd be surprised if the DPP gives carte blanche for TD's to knowingly engage in wrongdoing. Unprecedented surely?

What a load of nonsense. How would the DPP believing there was no evidence of a crime equate to giving a carte blanche for TDs to knowing engage in wrongdoing?

The desperate attempts to build this into something it is not continue.

FrancieBrady · 22-04-2021 10:28AM

blanch152 wrote: »

What a load of nonsense. How would the DPP believing there was no evidence of a crime equate to giving a carte blanche for TDs to knowing engage in wrongdoing?

The desperate attempts to build this into something it is not continue.

The TD/Tanaiste has confessed to knowingly distributing a document he knew to be confidential. He said so in the Dáil.

I am not 'desperate' to do anything, just responding to the known facts.

22-04-2021 10:32AM

McMurphy wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken, there were many of the "pro Leo" camp completely dissing the times when they were first out of the blocks, weeks before anyone else with their revelation's that the preliminary investigation was upgraded to the criminal one.

Now their word seems to be gospel.

Just an observation.

It is the British Times,I always call it that
Great for catching up on British news mainly
What was your reaction to their news of this at the start? I've had a look,you praised the journalist and the quality of its garda source,mentioning her tribunal experience
So that table is firmly bolted to the ground
No turning it over I'm afraid
If the Garda source is correct,theres no crime and no suspect of crime needing action

McMurphy · 22-04-2021 10:41AM

Marine Layer wrote: »

It is the British Times,I always call it that

What you call it has absolutely nothing to do with my observation. Not sure of relevancy tbh.

Great for catching up on British news mainly
What was your reaction to their news of this at the start? I've had a look,you praised the journalist and the quality of its garda source,mentioning her tribunal experience
So that table is firmly bolted to the ground
No turning it over I'm afraid
If the Garda source is correct,theres no crime and no suspect of crime needing action

I said Debbie McCann (she's not the times) had great contacts within the Gardai. The article you're referencing wasn't penned by Debbie McCann. Be "afraid" or don't be "afraid" you haven't the point you think you have lol.

I don't seem to be in camp flip flop marine layer.

22-04-2021 10:45AM

McMurphy wrote: »

What you call it has absolutely nothing to do with my observation. Not sure of relevancy tbh.

I said Debbie McCann (she's not the times) had great contacts within the Gardai. The article you're referencing wasn't penned by Debbie McCann.

I don't seem to be in camp flip flop marine layer.

Well you can take it,I always call that paper the British Times (as opposed to the Irish Times)
So can you clarify are you questioning the British Times's Garda Source's veracity ?

FrancieBrady · 22-04-2021 10:50AM

Marine Layer wrote: »

Well you can take it,I always call that paper the British Times (as opposed to the Irish Times)
So can you clarify are you questioning the British Times's Garda Source's veracity ?

I doubt the story made the front page of the British Times...it made the front page of the Irish edition of the The Sunday Times though.

blanch152 · 22-04-2021 10:52AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The TD/Tanaiste has confessed to knowingly distributing a document he knew to be confidential. He said so in the Dáil.

I am not 'desperate' to do anything, just responding to the known facts.

No he didn't, and you have been called out on this lie repeatedly.

McMurphy · 22-04-2021 10:55AM

Marine Layer wrote: »

Well you can take it,I always call that paper the British Times (as opposed to the Irish Times)

Please explain why you think it's important what you call the paper, and why I would care anyway? What is your actual point here, where are you going with it?

So can you clarify are you questioning the British Times's Garda Source's veracity ?

What calcification is needed?

People here were dissing the times as "a Tory rag" when Debbie McCanns first revealed the investigation on Leo was a criminal one.

I pointed out that who owned the paper had no bearing on the story being true or untrue, and pointed out the journalist Debbie McCann had great contacts within the Gardai, and stated why I believed she had great contacts.

It turned out McCann was spot on, and was the first to break the story about the criminal investigation.

The latest article in the times isn't from Debbie McCann, and yet the then "Tory rag" is now next to gospel.

What part of this is confusing?

FrancieBrady · 22-04-2021 11:07AM

blanch152 wrote: »

No he didn't, and you have been called out on this lie repeatedly.

Varadkar apologises over leak of confidential GP contract to rival group

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/varadkar-apologises-over-leak-of-confidential-gp-contract-to-rival-group-1.4398960

He agreed it was confidential and that he leaked it under questioning in the Dáil.

22-04-2021 11:14AM

McMurphy wrote: »

Please explain why you think it's important what you call the paper, and why I would care anyway? What is your actual point here, where are you going with it?

What calcification is needed?

People here were dissing the times as "a Tory rag" when Debbie McCanns first revealed the investigation on Leo was a criminal one.

I pointed out that who owned the paper had no bearing on the story being true or untrue, and pointed out the journalist Debbie McCann had great contacts within the Gardai, and stated why I believed she had great contacts.

It turned out McCann was spot on, and was the first to break the story about the criminal investigation.

The latest article in the times isn't from Debbie McCann, and yet the then "Tory rag" is now next to gospel.

What part of this is confusing?

Fine,you directed the dissing comments at me by quoting me,I've never dissed them
You're accepting the British Time's article as the latest,I take it so
No crime,nothing further is it's take home point
New boxset still needed based on that
I've no idea what to suggest for you

FrancieBrady · 22-04-2021 11:20AM

Marine Layer wrote: »

Fine,you directed the dissing comments at me by quoting me,I've never dissed them
You're accepting the British Time's article as the latest,I take it so
No crime,nothing further is it's take home point
New boxset still needed based on that
I've no idea what to suggest for you

Why this snideness and trying to bully people into silence with the 'box set' remarks?

People are still interested in how this this unprecedented series of events will play out. On a discussion forum.

22-04-2021 11:24AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why this snideness and trying to bully people into silence with the 'box set' remarks?

People are still interested in how this this unprecedented series of events will play out. On a discussion forum.

Not going to work
Losing in the wonderous adventures thread doesn't make this one 2nd prize for you

McMurphy · 22-04-2021 11:25AM

Marine Layer wrote: »

Fine,you directed the dissing comments at me by quoting me,I've never dissed them
You're accepting the British Time's article as the latest,I take it so
No crime,nothing further is it's take home point
New boxset still needed based on that
I've no idea what to suggest for you

No I didn't direct it at you, I might have quoted you granted, but unless you were part of the "people dissing the times as a Tory rag" then it clearly doesn't apply to you.

I'll echo Francies sentiments about the "box set" jibe though.

Story clearly hasn't ran it's course, and whatever the outcome, Leo Varadkar has admitted to leaking a document to his friend whilst Taoiseach.

That'll follow him to his grave. (I'm afraid).

22-04-2021 11:28AM

McMurphy wrote: »

No I didn't direct it at you, I might have quoted you granted, but unless you were part of the "people dissing the times as a Tory rag" then it clearly doesn't apply to you.

I'll echo Francies sentiments about the "box set" jibe though.

Story clearly hasn't ran it's course, and whatever the outcome, Leo Varadkar has admitted to leaking a document to his friend whilst Taoiseach.

That'll follow him to his grave. (I'm afraid).

Well thats your opinion and you are more than welcome to it
Other opinions do vary

FrancieBrady · 22-04-2021 11:46AM

McMurphy wrote: »

No I didn't direct it at you, I might have quoted you granted, but unless you were part of the "people dissing the times as a Tory rag" then it clearly doesn't apply to you.

I'll echo Francies sentiments about the "box set" jibe though.

Story clearly hasn't ran it's course, and whatever the outcome, Leo Varadkar has admitted to leaking a document to his friend whilst Taoiseach.

That'll follow him to his grave. (I'm afraid).

That is why this will always be relevant when talking of his career. No doubt, future biographers will ignore it or downplay it but it's already not a very flattering episode, how ever it plays out.

blanch152 · 22-04-2021 12:23PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/varadkar-apologises-over-leak-of-confidential-gp-contract-to-rival-group-1.4398960

He agreed it was confidential and that he leaked it under questioning in the Dáil.

He never said he leaked it. He said that he shared the document appropriately, but that he regretted the manner in which he did so.

We have been over this many times, and it appears from the reports that the DPP is going to take the same type of view of this that I have done from the start. The document was not a confidential one in terms of the OSA and the Taoiseach was entitled to share it and didn't benefit from sharing it.

As always, the caveat is that opinion is based on the available public information.

shatners bassoon · 22-04-2021 12:28PM

blanch152 wrote: »

The document was not a confidential one in terms of the OSA and the Taoiseach was entitled to share it and didn't benefit from sharing it.

You wonder why he shared it on a 'confidential basis'...

Given some of your contributions to this thread it's absolutely laughable that you would try to pull the 'I told you so' card at this stage.

blanch152 · 22-04-2021 12:38PM

shatners bassoon wrote: »

You wonder why he shared it on a 'confidential basis'...

Given some of your contributions to this thread it's absolutely laughable that you would try to pull the 'I told you so' card at this stage.

I have said, from the start, based on the publicly available information, that there was nothing to this. It seems it has take others much longer (including the Gardai) to reach that conclusion. Not my fault that they took longer to understand the issues.

FrancieBrady · 22-04-2021 12:39PM

blanch152 wrote: »

He never said he leaked it. He said that he shared the document appropriately, but that he regretted the manner in which he did so.

We have been over this many times, and it appears from the reports that the DPP is going to take the same type of view of this that I have done from the start. The document was not a confidential one in terms of the OSA and the Taoiseach was entitled to share it and didn't benefit from sharing it.

As always, the caveat is that opinion is based on the available public information.

You and he can parse it and spin it whatever way you want.

He was asked in the Dáil,
'Have you ever leaked confidential cabinet information before?'

And answered:

'Not of this nature'.

Everyone but his defenders know we were talking about leaking a confidential document.

He also said he accepted it was confidential.

22-04-2021 12:39PM

shatners bassoon wrote: »

You wonder why he shared it on a 'confidential basis'...
.

I would theorise that calling in O'Tuatháil officially in his eyes might scupper the IMO relationship
It would be public
He should have been up front with all parties in my humble opinion

blanch152 · 22-04-2021 12:40PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You and he can parse it and spin it whatever way you want.

He was asked in the Dáil,
'Have you ever leaked confidential cabinet information before?'

And answered:

'Not of this nature'.

Everyone but his defenders know we were talking about leaking a confidential document.

He also said he accepted it was confidential.

I am not doing any spinning.

The document was not a confidential one in terms of the OSA and the Taoiseach was entitled to share it and didn't benefit from sharing it. I have repeatedly said this from the start. Based on the publicly available information, it seems that the authorities have belatedly accepted this view.

FrancieBrady · 22-04-2021 12:47PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I am not doing any spinning.

The document was not a confidential one in terms of the OSA and the Taoiseach was entitled to share it and didn't benefit from sharing it. I have repeatedly said this from the start. Based on the publicly available information, it seems that the authorities have belatedly accepted this view.

You are ignoring what he confessed to himself. You aren't his defence lawyer, your opinion is your own and not shared by everyone.

blanch152 · 22-04-2021 12:50PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are ignoring what he confessed to himself. You aren't his defence lawyer, your opinion is your own and not shared by everyone.

This is what I have said on the manner. Rather than pursuing red herrings or whataboutery or deflection, explain exactly why my opinion is in error. Nothing that you have posted invalidates a word of the truth in my post.

He never said he leaked it. He said that he shared the document appropriately, but that he regretted the manner in which he did so.

We have been over this many times, and it appears from the reports that the DPP is going to take the same type of view of this that I have done from the start. The document was not a confidential one in terms of the OSA and the Taoiseach was entitled to share it and didn't benefit from sharing it.

As always, the caveat is that opinion is based on the available public information.

FrancieBrady · 22-04-2021 12:57PM

blanch152 wrote: »

This is what I have said on the manner. Rather than pursuing red herrings or whataboutery or deflection, explain exactly why my opinion is in error. Nothing that you have posted invalidates a word of the truth in my post.

This is parsing and spinning by you and him (I presume you meant inappropriately':)

He said that he shared the document appropriately,

Everybody else, including Leo under questioning, knows we were talking about leaking the document.

P. Tobin: 'Have you ever leaked confidential cabinet information before?'

Leo: 'No, not of this nature'.

Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

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