Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

tudderone · 15-04-2021 11:44am

civdef wrote: »

If you start off believing all but a “few” scientists and medical professionals are genuine- you will be very hard to satisfy about anything in the modern world I fear.

Are you basing this assessment of millions of trained professionals off any training of your own?

What qualifications does Greta Thunberg have to be bleating on, on media worldwide about something as complex as climate ?

Grizzly 45 · 15-04-2021 2:37pm

civdef wrote: »

Traffic stops are bloody dangerous, mostly from other traffic though as borne out by stats for officer deaths. It must totally suck to have to police in a place where the chance of perp with gun is so high though.

Officers being killed by traffic on stops is the least of the problems on a routine stop. Thats why they are so jumpy on stops is because they dont know what they are facing with the potential of facing a gun being pointed on them.Hence it is better just to comply with their demands,and not give them a problem.De-escalate the situation as much as possible,as a driver being stopped.

I don't credit these two morons with functioning spidey senses though.

More in the term of "WTF is this guy doing,is this going to be the one,Fuk I'm not being paid enough to do this job!" type senses...dunno what sort of a term you give that.

I

nteresting but not relevant to the case in hand, and at the end of the day he was exercising his rights - think he had a CCW too?

Since the cops claimed it was another reason they pulled him over.... But even if he had a CCW,thats null and void once you are on Uncle Sams property,be it a military base, courthouse, school,prision etc, and esp if you are serving! Even if it is on base accommodation.
Unless the base commander and your CO has cleared you to carry to and from or on the base, its a question then for the military police.

Lawful orders, of course. I didn't see a whole lot of lawful. It definitely is more sensible to keep mouth shut and sue later - but in a free society, someone brave enough to protest injustice shouldn't be criticised for that.

Saw a lot of confusing and contradictory orders from the cops, and an LT playing stupid about his rights there and then ,when de-escalating and complying would be the better option in the moment. Keepit together until you get to lawyer up as he is g right

No argument there at all- doing some further reading, it seems towns in this area are known for poor policing standards. Amazing how a small town here that might justify a couple of guards here is able to run its own independent force there with very little oversight and fairly dodgy hiring / training practices

.

True that, but then again you have big forces like LAPD having the same problem, as does any police force.What the bigger problem IMO with the US police is they are hiring alot of Ex military personnel, who haven't been properly "Deactivated" What you could do out in Bagdad or Khandar doesn't apply too well in Baltimore or Kansas. Both policing systems have their pros and cons of voting in your local Sheriff or appointing your police chief by political appointment.

If it wasn't so tragic it'd be funny.

Fact!!

tudderone · 15-04-2021 4:44pm

Not to mention that the job of police officer in a lot of places in America is not well paid at all, leads to it not attracting the best for the job. More of a case of take what you can get.

BattleCorp · 15-04-2021 4:50pm

Mellor wrote: »

Pulling over in a well lit and safe place is pretty standard. Traffic police should be used to that.
Was the paper tag issued by the state? If so then it's not the drivers fault that it's the system. Even if hard to see, the very first thing the officer should have done was check for a tag. He didn't. He first action was to pull a gun and give confusing orders, then pepper spray the guy.
He's been fired. And rightfully so. Hope he gets nailed in civil court too.

Is it a lawful request for the cops to ask you to step out of the car if they think you don't have the correct 'tag'?

tudderone · 15-04-2021 4:52pm

CNN blabbermouth admitting what everyone knew anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4R_p-qG0wQ

tudderone · 15-04-2021 6:20pm

Anyone know the situation with importing items generally from the north ? Is duty to be paid when they cross the border ?

civdef · 15-04-2021 6:35pm

Officers being killed by traffic on stops is the least of the problems on a routine stop.

That perception is a big part of the problem, and it's not just a US thing.
Good resources:

https://www.policemag.com/340410/the-hazards-of-traffic-stops
https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2484&context=mlr

Since the cops claimed it was another reason they pulled him over.... But even if he had a CCW,thats null and void once you are on Uncle Sams property,be it a military base, courthouse, school,prision etc, and esp if you are serving! Even if it is on base accommodation.
Unless the base commander and your CO has cleared you to carry to and from or on the base, its a question then for the military police.

If these two were MP's on base it would be relevant. Public road, civilian cops - none of their business.

civdef · 15-04-2021 6:40pm

tudderone wrote: »

What qualifications does Greta Thunberg have to be bleating on, on media worldwide about something as complex as climate ?

If she was challenging the worldwide scientific consensus, I'd certainly question her credentials to do so. But she isn't!

otmmyboy2 · 15-04-2021 7:24pm

tudderone wrote: »

Anyone know the situation with importing items generally from the north ? Is duty to be paid when they cross the border ?

Dunno about carrying them across personally but shipping wise I believe if stuff is sent from NI to here it gets charged vat/duty/customs etc in the same manner as stuff from the rest of the UK.

AFAIK anyway.

Rows Grower · 15-04-2021 7:28pm

tudderone wrote: »

Anyone know the situation with importing items generally from the north ? Is duty to be paid when they cross the border ?

I bought a few things recently and there was no extra charges, as far as I know the North is classed as still in the EU as well as the UK.

tudderone · 15-04-2021 7:29pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Dunno about carrying them across personally but shipping wise I believe if stuff is sent from NI to here it gets charged vat/duty/customs etc in the same manner as stuff from the rest of the UK.

AFAIK anyway.

I thought the border was now down the middle of the Irish sea and there was no border on the Island ? I am looking at getting tools from the north, i got an offer on some and want to know am i going to get squeezed by vat/duty

otmmyboy2 · 15-04-2021 7:33pm

tudderone wrote: »

I thought the border was now down the middle of the Irish sea and there was no border on the Island ? I am looking at getting tools from the north, i got an offer on some and want to know am i going to get squeezed by vat/duty

Maybe it's been changed but I remember reading that from NI to Ireland was going to be the customs line, but open to correction on that.

If the stuff Rows Grower ordered was over €22 and got through with nothing added then happily I stand corrected, and I'll be making an order or two aswell

EDIT:
I stand corrected, according to KPMG:
"The terms of the revised NI Protocol mean an all-Ireland economy is preserved with no Tariffs, customs controls or border checks applied to the trade in goods between Ireland and Northern Ireland allowing for frictionless trade North/South."
https://home.kpmg/ie/en/home/insights/2020/12/brexit-vat-and-customs.html

EDIT 2:
Revenue seems to say the same:
https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs-traders-and-agents/brexit/information-for-businesses-trading-with-ni/vat-trade-with-ni-after-transition/trade-in-goods-with-northern-ireland.aspx

tudderone · 15-04-2021 9:17pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Maybe it's been changed but I remember reading that from NI to Ireland was going to be the customs line, but open to correction on that.

If the stuff Rows Grower ordered was over €22 and got through with nothing added then happily I stand corrected, and I'll be making an order or two aswell

EDIT:
I stand corrected, according to KPMG:
"The terms of the revised NI Protocol mean an all-Ireland economy is preserved with no Tariffs, customs controls or border checks applied to the trade in goods between Ireland and Northern Ireland allowing for frictionless trade North/South."
https://home.kpmg/ie/en/home/insights/2020/12/brexit-vat-and-customs.html

EDIT 2:
Revenue seems to say the same:
https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs-traders-and-agents/brexit/information-for-businesses-trading-with-ni/vat-trade-with-ni-after-transition/trade-in-goods-with-northern-ireland.aspx

Thanks for taking the time to post that Otmmyboy.

Grizzly 45 · 16-04-2021 12:11am

civdef wrote: »

That perception is a big part of the problem, and it's not just a US thing.
Good resources:

https://www.policemag.com/340410/the-hazards-of-traffic-stops
https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2484&context=mlr

Haven't read fully the 2nd article yet.But the first is making a lot of my points about why cops are soo lerry and cocked on routine traffic stops.

If these two were MP's on base it would be relevant. Public road, civilian cops - none of their business.

Missing the point. He might have been legal by carrying a CWP in a public place But he came FROM, apparently work IE the base. So in that case he was illegally[?] carrying it on base. Which if he had it in his possession on the base area, would also be a violation of his CWP.This is why a lot of people are making a big deal of it.

Now,if he had stored it, say in a locker in a gym say, or a left luggage locker ,a friends house etc or before going anywhere near the base, he's good to go and that negates any US military investigation as well, or he has the authorisation from his C/O to carry on the base?AND destroys the cop's arguments too, as it is irrelevant anyway as it was a moving vehicle violation they were supposedly pulling him over for.

Grizzly 45 · 16-04-2021 12:25am

Mellor wrote: »

Pulling over in a well lit and safe place is pretty standard. Traffic police should be used to that.
Was the paper tag issued by the state? If so then it's not the drivers fault that it's the system. Even if hard to see, the very first thing the officer should have done was check for a tag. He didn't. He first action was to pull a gun and give confusing orders, then pepper spray the guy.
He's been fired. And rightfully so. Hope he gets nailed in civil court too.

The Tag if I rightly remember from buying a car over is a dealer issued on the behalf of the state, to allow you to drive until your state-issued plates arrive.That you apply for thru the Dept of Motor Vechicles for the State.
So he was legit and displaying it legally, and it is still visible on the back window, despite the tint. Maybe not the fine detail, but that could have been sorted with a torch and 20 seconds on looking at it and tipping in the details into the computer. Now it might not come back as registered to the owner's new name, as it can take,like anywhere,a few days to pop up. Well it did in my case, but that was 25 plus years ago, So I'd assume it's quicker now but in that case, you'd just keep the dealer receipt or title with you to prove such.

So yeah an utter shambles from the word go on dealing with this situation.

Grizzly 45 · 16-04-2021 1:08am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

civdef wrote: »

If she was challenging tthe worldwide scientific consensus, I'd certainly question her credentials to do so. But she isn't!

Which side should we listen to oh all-knowing, Soros financed sock puppet, Greta?? The one side of qualified scientists and academics who say it is as bunkum

Or the crowd who have been caught out, and bought out trying to fit the facts to suit their agenda in the Climategate scandal and dodgy hockey stick graphs and computer programmes and haven't had ONE prediction of climate alarmism come true since they assured us with [JUNK] Science since 1964 would happen in the 1960s, then the 70s, well ok! The 80s then! What we meant was really the 90s!... Oh well deffo in the Oughties...Definitely by the 2020s and no doubt by the 2030s, and we'll hedge our bets by the 2050s!!! as THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED[!Cos we say so!:D] Maybe they are...Take it away Brian!

civdef · 16-04-2021 10:46am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Which side should we listen to oh all-knowing, Soros financed sock puppet, Greta?? The one side of qualified scientists and academics who say it is as bunkum

Well it’s fairly clear which side of the debate you fall on here- but will you admit that the number of real scientists (lets define that as people with PhDs in peer reviewed journals in a relevant topic) on one side massively outnumber the other?

otmmyboy2 · 16-04-2021 12:00pm

Now I have no love for the unelected EU Commission, but it would definitely tickle me if they slapped down the government's hotel quarantine nonsense:

My favorite quotes:

“The Commission is looking into these measures as there are some concerns in relation to the general principles of EU law, in particular proportionality and non-discrimination,” a Commission spokesman said.

It comes after the five countries concerned launched a diplomatic push against the measure, with Italian ambassador to Ireland Paolo Serpi describing it at “discriminatory” and calling for its immediate cancellation.

civdef · 16-04-2021 1:05pm

I don't get it. You have a problem with visitors being restricted to Ireland in the middle of a global pandemic?

One of the big lessons from 2020 is that measures like this should have been applied much much more quickly.

otmmyboy2 · 16-04-2021 1:24pm

civdef wrote: »

I don't get it. You have a problem with visitors being restricted to Ireland in the middle of a global pandemic?

One of the big lessons from 2020 is that measures like this should have been applied much much more quickly.

I have a problem with the arbitrary and somewhat nonsensical nature of Ireland's hotel quarantine policy, most especially:
it's lack of accounting for those already vaccinated and tested prior to arrival,
it's lack of accountability,
it's exorbitant cost,
it's supposed exemptions on compassionate grounds not being applied in a reasonable and fair manner(see the numerous high court cases being run through currently),
it's implementation at this exceedingly late stage,
it's effectiveness, given the positivity rate of tests from travellers quarantined in hotels thus far,
it's legality(with regards to both EU and Irish law),
the lack of adequate facilities(both in numbers and appropriateness) for families, those with special medical needs, special needs, etc,
it's administration by the military,
it being applied seemingly arbitrarily(to some countries on the basis of their case levels, etc but not to others with similar or higher risk),
the exemption of state officials & politicians(I was unaware that job title protected you from covid, either getting or carrying it),
the lack of exemption for essential business travel,
the appeals process only being available once you have already booked, paid, arrived and been processed in,

I'm sure there are more but those are some off the top of my head.

You yourself mention

measures like this should have been applied much much more quickly

.
Personally I think this measure, particularly for EU countries and the US as a whole rather on a state by state basis, is another case of shutting the barn door after the horses have gone, been free, died of old age and already buried. :P

Also one final point,

middle of a global pandemic

?
Leo not ruling out another lockdown next Christmas would make that 21 months since normality ended.

I don't think middle is on the cards here, and also if that Christmas 2021 lockdown does come to fruition I think the entire gov should be thrown out for mismanagement of this pile of manure.
21 months and still using the big stick, with evidently still no other plan or approach bar rolling lockdowns until some arbitrary vaccination number has been reached?
Come on, that is utterly pathetic.

Grizzly 45 · 16-04-2021 1:44pm

civdef wrote: »

Well it’s fairly clear which side of the debate you fall on here- but will you admit that the number of real scientists (lets define that as people with PhDs in peer reviewed journals in a relevant topic) on one side massively outnumber the other?

No, I wil not admit that Civ, and I will also not let you set the narrative on it either.
As you well know there are more than enough qualified professors,PhDs and whatnot in various fields related to climate change that say this is just so much horse manure as well.
But obviously, we should swallow and not question the narrative of the great majority of climate alarmists with Phds who have been caught faking their data, and haven't once been right since 1964 in their doom sayings.

That's not science that's a CULT indoctrination technique.
Used by doomsaying cults to keep their sheep fleeced on when their version of end times didn't happen but have an excuse as to why the next prophecy will happen, and of course, it is hearsay and blasphemy to question the prophecies. Be it on the coming of the end times or that mankind will be doomed,on any arbitrary date it seems between 1964 and now 2050.
Is this the "A blind chicken will find occasionally some grains too"methodology?

If you consider that " Respectable and factual science" well then ....:rolleyes:

Please refute and explain why "science" has been wrong on all of these occasions when we were "all gonna die" events in the last 56 years?

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-of-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions/

otmmyboy2 · 16-04-2021 2:10pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Please refute and explain why "science" has been wrong on all of these occasions when we were "all gonna die" events in the last 56 years?

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-of-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions/

I remember my geography teacher in secondary school when climate change came up that he had been told the same by his teachers, a good 45 years previous lol :P

civdef · 16-04-2021 3:12pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

No, I wil not admit that Civ, and I will also not let you set the narrative on it either.
As you well know there are more than enough qualified professors,PhDs and whatnot in various fields related to climate change that say this is just so much horse manure

Tell ya what- I’ll propose a number. 97%
To give myself a bit of credibility I’ll also provide some references.
https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/17/do-scientists-agree-on-climate-change/

Mellor · 16-04-2021 3:38pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Is it a lawful request for the cops to ask you to step out of the car if they think you don't have the correct 'tag'?

If they believed the tag was incorrect or fake. Standard procedure would be to look up the tag on the system before approaching the car. So very hard to add any credit to the idea the tag was incorrect.

If they couldn’t see it. I’d expect them to at least look in the rear window before going on the offensive with a firearm and pepper spray.
Even if the request to pull over was lawful. His actions on the side of the road are why he was fired.

Mellor · 16-04-2021 3:58pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Please refute and explain why "science" has been wrong on all of these occasions when we were "all gonna die" events in the last 56 years?

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-of-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions/

Those are newspaper headlines. Not scientific papers.

Not to saying, scientific papers predictions have never been wrong. But it’s a bit silly to pull random headlines over a half century time span and claim they’ve never been right.
This claim has already been disproven on thread.

Rows Grower · 16-04-2021 4:32pm

Mellor wrote: »

Those are newspaper headlines. Not scientific papers.

Not to saying, scientific papers predictions have never been wrong. But it’s a bit silly to pull random headlines over a half century time span and claim they’ve never been right.
This claim has already been disproven on thread.

I didn't bother looking at the link (or even finish reading the post to be honest) which made your first two sentences very funny.

civdef · 16-04-2021 4:45pm

I don't think middle is on the cards here, and also if that Christmas 2021 lockdown does come to fruition I think the entire gov should be thrown out for mismanagement of this pile of manure.
21 months and still using the big stick, with evidently still no other plan or approach bar rolling lockdowns until some arbitrary vaccination number has been reached?
Come on, that is utterly pathetic.

I'm all ears for an alternative. As are every government in the world, I'd say. What do you know everyone else doesn't?

There's probably a Nobel prize in it for whoever works that one out.

otmmyboy2 · 16-04-2021 5:00pm

civdef wrote: »

I'm all ears for an alternative. As are every government in the world, I'd say. What do you know everyone else doesn't?

There's probably a Nobel prize in it for whoever works that one out.

An alternative, you mean to rolling lockdowns?

Off the top of my head - reopening.

People who are vulnerable, uncomfortable with going back to normal life etc can cocoon if they wish, continue in self imposed lockdown, but let other people who are willing and able to restart their lives do so.

Let people manage their own levels of risk rather than trying to nanny everyone and vilifying & smearing those who disagree with you.

Look at other countries and their approaches to getting out of this lunatic lockdown cycle.

There are other ways of dealing with covid, the WHO even said lockdowns should not be used as the primary way to control it.

Is anyone going to deny that is exactly what our gov are doing and have been doing?

Fair enough in the beginning but 14 months later and looking on to 21 months later?

Doing the same thing again and again is ridiculous, so stop the rolling lockdowns and implement another policy!

Even our leaders and NPHET agree that a zero covid island is not a practical approach, so what is their strategy of rolling lockdowns aimed to achieve?

We cannot eradicate covid.
Whenever we reopen the country, our economy, industry etc it will re-emerge.

So what is their plan 14 months later?
Nada.
Zip.
Zilch.

Just talk of vaccines and "not ruling out another lockdown".

It is, as I said before, pathetic.

These are the people paid to(among other things) figure a way out of this and they have failed miserably.

Finally, "everyone else"?

Several other countries seem to have somewhat of a clue to getting out of lockdowns, so why not follow their leads?
They haven't even had as strict a lockdown as ours have been, and continue to be for the forseeable.

Texas recently re-opened, lifted it's mask mandate and their hospitalisations are going down.
Florida never locked down!
Sweden never locked down, only issued recommendations and guidelines.
The UK are reopening.
New cases in Germany are on the rise despite the highest mask mandate compliance in the EU.

After 14 months of trial there has to be some degree of retrospective analysis to see what worked and what did not. Look at the first to see should it be modified, and scrap the latter.

I also think it is interesting that from a 24 line post answering your previous query fully that you will pick out the final 4 lines to take issue with, but not the rest. :P

Grizzly 45 · 16-04-2021 9:01pm

Mellor wrote: »

Those are newspaper headlines. Not scientific papers.

Not to saying, scientific papers predictions have never been wrong. But it’s a bit silly to pull random headlines over a half century time span and claim they’ve never been right.
This claim has already been disproven on thread.

Well please provide scientific papers " to refute them then? And please tell us which one of the varied and multiple scenarios have come even 50% true in the Climate alarmists predictions over the last 57 years?

civdef · 16-04-2021 9:17pm

I also think it is interesting that from a 24 line post answering your previous query fully that you will pick out the final 4 lines to take issue with, but not the rest. :P

I really hate those long line by line quote posts- and life is too short to be writing them.

If I thought your plan would work I’d be all for it. But it won’t.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Comments