Feisar wrote: »

And I’d be happy enough if half the country was vaccinated that they’d be able to get out and about and get business back motoring again. IMHO it’s much more unfair to keep strangling business and people’s mental health when there is an option available.

In that case when it was being debated months ago that the rest of the country start opening up and those who were most at risk (the elderly, immunocompromised, etc) stay at home such a plan was shot down by the gov because it would be unfair, create a 2 tier society, etc.

Which is exactly what they are doing now.

I don't see how you can be for letting those who are least likely to have severe reactions to covid have more freedom now, but not before...

That lockdown is the correct option

Why?

Maybe, in the very beginning, when the virus was predicted to be significantly more easily spread and deadly. But if that was the case why were our borders open then but largely closed now...
Now we know lockdowns are not the best solution, nor are they warranted on the scale and longevity they have been used here.

On national unity, we seem to lack a sense of civic duty one sees in other countries. Even when we were piss poor and people would help their neighbours they’d still do their best to dodge the taxman. There is no big picture with us for some reason.

Perhaps that has something to do with liking our neighbours, and despising the ridiculously high taxes we have to pay only to get rightly buggered in return.

Mellor wrote: »

But the virus has been shown to be easily spread. Not sure what you are referring to here with the "now we know stuff".
The Irish border has been a farce.

WHO reported the mortality rate at 3.4% in March 2020.
Similarly an R0 of 4 was reported.
There have been very few suspected cases of transmission by surface, which was said to be a problem for up to 48 hours after the fact, and in the air if an infected person had sneezed for up to 24 hours.

There was a lot of speculation and inflated sense of danger at the start, statistically now we can see that.

We have a lot more concrete idea of the realities of covid now, so our strategy should be based on that reality, not still stuck in the past.

Well implemented lockdowns have been shown to be very effective.
But people taking the mick with them, easily undermine it and a small group ignoring it continues to extend it for everyone.

And what makes you think Ireland could ever achieve such?
All evidence to the contrary of the past 13 months included.

Sweden being a prime example, with relatively low excess mortality, mental impact, good economic performance, etc and still the main part of their covid strategy is recommendations, not house arrest and draconian laws backed up by penal provisions.

Our strategy has evidently not worked, regardless of reason.
So why can we not accept it as a failed gambit and move onto to something that could?

Everyone has "lockdown fatigue" as it now seems to be known, people are stressed, lonely, miserable, etc, so why not adopt a more Swedish model and change the message to something milder than the incessant warble coming from the government currently.

If the stick is not working(which by your own writing I think you agree with) then why not remove it and try something, anything different, rather than doubling down on the draconian and attempting to make segments of society (the young, the old, the rich, the poor, the un-vaccinated, the vaccinated, etc) turn against each other?

Even the WHO have come out against having lockdowns as the primary method of covid control.

Now with the recent news of possible transmissions including shopping being 55.8% seemingly I think that should call into question the other mandatory measures, ie masks, distancing, screens, visors, capacity limits, etc for review, since they evidently are not particularly effective.

The FT's stringency index even shows Ireland as having the most stringent level of lockdown starting on March 28 until mid June, then back up in October, and all the time since absenting a few days in December.

BattleCorp wrote: »

With respect, stringent me hole.

Hundreds at loads of funerals, parties galore, shebeens, visiting houses etc.

Stringent looking at the regulations in place, read the explainer if you haven't already.

Mellor wrote: »

The WHO estimated R0 to be 2.5. Other estimates had it higher. I don’t think that number has been shown to be unrealistic for built up areas.
R0 is is not the same as the current R number.

But that R0 reported was overall, not urban, thus the overall R0 is lower by a decent bit.

And even it the R0 is not as high as initial thought, that doesn’t mean it isn’t easily spread. An R0 of 2.5 isn’t the benchmark for highly contagious.
Previous coronaviruses has R0’s of around 0.5. Corona-19 is quite obviously passed much more readily. That’s why previous virus went away relatively easily.

I said "more easily spread", not easily spread, indicating the difference of the initial expectation of spread vs what we now know.

civdef wrote: »

Ireland has actually done well compared to other similar countries, except for the times when we relaxed precautions. If we had avoided losing the head around Christmas we'd have done really well.

Disagree wholeheartedly.
If their initial lockdown worked so well, when they had the time to come up with other methods then why are we on lockdown 3 or 4, I dunno which at this point.
Same question again, if any of the lockdowns worked why did we need subsequent ones?
Why are we still sitting here after over a literal year of lavish spending with a health service which is still incapable of handling surges in hospitalisations?

Why when it has become clear that, regardless of the reason(disobedience, lack of cohesive messaging, contradictions, etc) lockdowns have not been effective in that as soon as they are released in any way numbers shoot up again?
Lockdowns should have been used to create some time to get the HSE in order and capable, instead they are still the go to, which is why we are here a year later and still in the most stringent and long lasting lockdowns in Europe!
More than some EU countries combined.
What lockdowns have been effective in doing has been killing the economy, racking up a huge increase in national debt, and committing every tax payer in Ireland, and their children, and likely grandchildren, to paying off that massive and still increasing debt.

How does that make lockdown in any way effective at beating covid?

Martin even said there was no strategy bar a string of lockdown, easing, lockdown until vaccinations were completed!
How the hell is that a strategy, after over a year of time to think, plan, etc?!

That is literally the same stupidity seen with firearms regulation, knee jerk, and if that is ineffective knee jerk harder. :mad:

I am sick to f*** of lockdown. As soon as anyone shows me an alternative that doesn't involve burying thousands of vulnerable people, I'll be all for it.

Given our method of counting includes "suspected" deaths and there have been some reports of a very low excess mortality in Ireland in 2020 vs previous years I'll be waiting until official figures are out before counting the thousands.

Uncountable will be the number of deaths which are a result of the government's mishandling of covid, the missed cancer treatments & diagnosis, scans, mental health declining, businesses failing, etc.

The only one I see is universal vaccinations - but a lot of the same people against lockdowns, masks etc are against vaccinations!

Personally I'm not against vaccinations at all, however I am completely against forced vaccinations.

That includes denial of equal rights for unvaccinated vs vaccinated people, which is just a way to backdoor mandatory vaccinations, same as the PSC was for driving licences.

Bodily autonomy is a big thing and I cannot comprehend how mandatory vaccinations doesn't go against that.

And I use the term mandatory because I take it that is what you mean by universal.
Are you planning on holding people down and forcing the needle into their arms?
Or possibly you are ok with your taxes going to those who are willing to do that job?
Or maybe you are just ok with the more insidious approach of slowly cutting off that segment of society until they are forced into it.

That is of course leaving aside the following issues around vaccinations which have never been addressed in a concrete manner:

• Religious objections
• Moral objections
• Not being medically fit
• Not being eligible
• Vaccine supply problems
• Efficacy of vaccines vs new variants
• Pregnant women
• Children, toddlers & babies

I think there are far too many issues around the above scenarios to just think mandatory vaccinations are a potential path to go down.