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How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

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    #6902
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    downcow wrote: »
    ...and would that include disposing the likes of bobby sands?
    You see that’s one of the points that the unionist community were shocked, and still are, that ordinary nationalists can revere people who were involved in the murder of innocent members of our community?

    Bobby Sands wasn't a murderer.


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    #6903
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    Yes, terrorists. Back in the day there wouldn't have been any sympathy if someone in the UDA got killed around where I was living, these guys were only a few streets away and frequently came over to shoot people who had no involvement at all. But most people did not agree with the IRA campaign.

    What I was questioning originally Downcow, do most (not all, but most) Protestants accept that the Plantation of Ulster was terribly wrong, that the treatment of Catholics post partition was also terribly wrong as was Bloody Sunday? No doubt the vast majority of Catholics think that things like the Enniskillen bombing and La Mon were atrocities.

    Yes. But themuns started it


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    #6904
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    downcow wrote: »
    I appreciate the honesty in your post.
    As for the issues you raise. I see the plantation as something long back in history. Who are you going to blame? Those living in Dublin now whose ancestors benifited? Do you blame my people? - some of whom arrived during the plantation and most who did not arrive during the plantation. Presbyterians were treated worse than Catholics by the Anglican rulers at times - we have let it go. We don’t blame our Anglican neighbours. I honestly think it’s nuts to refer to the plantation as a factor today. It was a long time before land was taken off native Americans, auusies, etc, etc. I think it’s this old victim mentality. If it’s not the plantation then it’s the famine. Many of your people benefited from both.

    Bloody Sunday is over-egged. It was very unfortunate but it certainly wasn’t any worse (and I would suggest not as bad as) la mon etc. These were protesters and there was a riot taking place. The people in la mon were having dinner and were burned to death simply because they were Protestant .

    Many Catholics were treated badly after partition and it was blatant sectarianism and to be condemned. But you are missing the context. They were seen by those running the country as out to wreck the country (no excuse) but a reality.
    I do get fed up with nonsense like Catholics didn’t have the vote etc - just lies.

    These issues were all complex but I am accepting us brits got it very wrong a lot of the time I am sorry for that. But I have to stomach the constant innocence being portrayed by many on this forum of the Irish. You Irish have discriminated against us brits in a major way also but seem in denial. No acceptance by many of the vicious sectarian campaigns of the ira. No responsibility taken for 70% of the Protestant population having to get out of ROI, nor the mass movement of people in ni eg 90%+ of the Protestant population of derry have to set up new communities on the waterside and those that are left living in a fortress. No acceptance of the sectarianism of the ira cleansing entire towns of Protestants eg my home town
    Etc etc

    Bloody Sunday "over-egged" ?
    Innocent people standing up against sectarianism, gerrymandering, discrimination... executed in the street by the state ...
    Widgery's lies portraying the innocent as terrorists...

    But for the sectarianism by the Unionist govt in Stormont...


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    #6905
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Nqp15hhu wrote: »
    Not in modern times. I would like you though to provide evidence of a how a Protestant in NI would be treated more favourably in 2021? Could you provide that evidence please, thanks.


    https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/agri/protestant-farmers-more-likely-to-have-large-farms-northern-ireland-statistics-show-37474528.html

    This ties in with my earlier post.


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    #6906
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,242 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Not asking for justification...I'm asking what it is that is different. downcow struggled with this too, funnily enough.

    Downcow gave you an endless list. It was Irish posters on here who really struggled to give examples of how they were distinct from british culture. I think it was narrowed down to leprechauns, Irish dancing (which we discovered was copied from the british army) and garlic sports


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    #6907
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Nqp15hhu wrote: »
    So you think that a United Ireland will solve the division in my country? How? It'll just flip things over.

    Partition was a wrong that needs correction.
    The difference is uniting Ireland won't lead to inequality for anyone. Nobody will be burnt out while authorities turn a blind eye. There will be little support for terrorism from any side.
    People give less and less of a **** about religion, thank Jebus.
    I think any no campaigners north and south are really only concerned about no longer being top dog and looking after their own. No government or party should be putting one group above another.


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    #6908
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,121 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    Downcow have you an endless list. It was Irish posters on here who really struggled to give examples of how they were distinct from british culture. I think it was narrowed down to leprechauns, Irish dancing (which we discovered was copied from the british army) and garlic sports

    downcow...the British see us as a distinct culture and sadly(for you) you are included in that. Davis Trimble, Ian Paisley knew it and so does everyone else. We are all seen as 'Irish' distinctly, by Britain and the rest of the world.
    The Orange is as much part of my culture as it is yours. It just happens to be a part of my culture I wish it wasn't...like the RC church might be to you. But the RC church is part of you too.


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    #6909
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,242 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Rodin wrote: »
    Bobby Sands wasn't a murderer.

    You know this?
    I couldn’t confirm that but i know he belonged to an organisation who’s raison detre was murder.
    I understand he was a thief.


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    #6910
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,242 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Rodin wrote: »
    Bloody Sunday "over-egged" ?
    Innocent people standing up against sectarianism, gerrymandering, discrimination... executed in the street by the state ...
    Widgery's lies portraying the innocent as terrorists...

    But for the sectarianism by the Unionist govt in Stormont...

    It was terrible. But thousands of people were murdered in ni and many were just trying to keep their heads down and live.


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    #6911
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,403 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    Downcow have you an endless list. It was Irish posters on here who really struggled to give examples of how they were distinct from british culture. I think it was narrowed down to leprechauns, Irish dancing (which we discovered was copied from the british army) and garlic sports

    Do you really want to go over this nonsense again, Downcow?

    Language, music, sport, literature, food, myth/legends, I could go on. Irish culture is well defined and known across the world.

    Even many similarities between the less....sophisticated British and Irish cultures are easily differentiated, for example compare the typical British style estate pub and it's atmosphere to the typical traditional Irish pub.

    Why so insecure all the time? The existence of an internationally known and widely loved Irish culture doesn't diminish yours. Perhaps the bigger issue is Ulster Unionism's constant striving to define itself as, 'not Irish' rather than focusing on what it actually is forms part of the problem.


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    #6912
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,242 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    downcow...the British see us as a distinct culture and sadly(for you) you are included in that. Davis Trimble, Ian Paisley knew it and so does everyone else. We are all seen as 'Irish' distinctly, by Britain and the rest of the world.
    The Orange is as much part of my culture as it is yours. It just happens to be a part of my culture I wish it wasn't...like the RC church might be to you. But the RC church is part of you too.

    I can’t understand why you are so infatuated by what ‘Britain’ thinks?
    What Britain or anyone else thinks about me doesn't change who I am. Just because the world thought Irish people were thick, alcoholics who liked fighting, doesn’t mean that they are.


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    #6913
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,121 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    I can’t understand why you are so infatuated by what ‘Britain’ thinks?
    What Britain or anyone else thinks about me doesn't change who I am. Just because the world thought Irish people were thick, alcoholics who liked fighting, doesn’t mean that they are.

    *
    We are all seen as 'Irish' distinctly, by Britain and the rest of the world.


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    #6914
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,242 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    Do you really want to go over this nonsense again, Downcow?

    Language, music, sport, literature, food, myth/legends, I could go on. Irish culture is well defined and known across the world.

    Even many similarities between the less....sophisticated British and Irish cultures are easily differentiated, for example compare the typical British style estate pub and it's atmosphere to the typical traditional Irish pub.

    Why so insecure all the time? The existence of an internationally known and widely loved Irish culture doesn't diminish yours. Perhaps the bigger issue is Ulster Unionism's constant striving to define itself as, 'not Irish' rather than focusing on what it actually is forms part of the problem.

    Kettle and pot come to mind. You are barely indistinguishable from the English and yet you try to distance yourself.


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    #6915
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    downcow wrote: »
    It was terrible. But thousands of people were murdered in ni and many were just trying to keep their heads down and live.

    Nobody has said those murders were ok.
    You've said Bloody Sunday was "over-egged"

    But Unionist sectarian discrimination is the Sine Qua Non of the modern troubles.


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    #6916
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,121 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    Kettle and pot come to mind. You are barely indistinguishable from the English and yet you try to distance yourself.

    The English can distinguish us in a heartbeat.


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    #6917
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,121 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Rodin wrote: »
    Nobody has said those murders were ok.
    You've said Bloody Sunday was "over-egged"

    But Unionist sectarian discrimination is the Sine Qua Non of the modern troubles.

    We've come a long way. When Bloody Sunday happened Unionism was happy it did, as was Britain.
    Now only belligerent Unionism thinks it was was 'over egged''
    Belligerent Unionism is meeting in the upstairs rooms of pubs these days and inventing Loyalist threats to try to stop a Protocol that today the EU and THE UK said is going nowhere.


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    #6918
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,403 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    Kettle and pot come to mind. You are barely indistinguishable from the English and yet you try to distance yourself.

    You're projecting your own insecurities again, Downcow.

    I've no problem with acknowledging significant crossover between British and Irish culture (I can think of around 800 reasons for that), but the absolute fact of the matter is Irish culture is recognised (and celebrated) across the world, and easily distinguished from British culture.

    Irish culture is easily defined, no amount of shouting, 'NEVER, NEVER, NEVER' will change that.

    Instead of the snide comments with no basis in actual fact, perhaps actually address the odd point. I'll remind you that when this discussion last came up, I was happy to provide examples as to how Ulster Unionist culture and traditions are different from Irish culture. As I said already, perhaps better to focus on the positives of your culture instead of trying to define yourself as, 'whatever those ones down the road aren't' to the extent you try claiming to know nothing of what happens twenty or thirty mile down the road from you.


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    #6919
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,403 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    We've come a long way. When Bloody Sunday happened Unionism was happy it did, as was Britain.
    Now only belligerent Unionism thinks it was was 'over egged''
    Belligerent Unionism is meeting in the upstairs rooms of pubs these days and inventing Loyalist threats to try to stop a Protocol that today the EU and THE UK said is going nowhere.

    The absurdity of today's news that the Orange Order were removing themselves from cross-border projects....because of an agreement with the EU that their British government agreed to. It's genuinely perplexing the level of mental gymnastics required to avoid acknowledging the responsibility the UK (and specifically the DUP who make up a significant number of their membership) hold for.....you know, signing up to an international agreement which they then claimed was fantastic.


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    #6920
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,242 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    You're projecting your own insecurities again, Downcow.

    I've no problem with acknowledging significant crossover between British and Irish culture (I can think of around 800 reasons for that), but the absolute fact of the matter is Irish culture is recognised (and celebrated) across the world, and easily distinguished from British culture.

    Irish culture is easily defined, no amount of shouting, 'NEVER, NEVER, NEVER' will change that.

    Instead of the snide comments with no basis in actual fact, perhaps actually address the odd point. I'll remind you that when this discussion last came up, I was happy to provide examples as to how Ulster Unionist culture and traditions are different from Irish culture. As I said already, perhaps better to focus on the positives of your culture instead of trying to define yourself as, 'whatever those ones down the road aren't' to the extent you try claiming to know nothing of what happens twenty or thirty mile down the road from you.

    It’s actually a pathetic go to discussion for Irish nationalists. I actually don’t care where we overlap and where we don’t. I don’t know why you need to get ni british folk to fit into your wee Irish box. It’s clearly an insecurity


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    #6921
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,242 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Rodin wrote: »
    Nobody has said those murders were ok.
    You've said Bloody Sunday was "over-egged"

    But Unionist sectarian discrimination is the Sine Qua Non of the modern troubles.

    What I mean about over-egged is that it get more attention than any other atrocity in ni. That’s all

    If you asked me to list atrocities in ni I would have a very long list before I even thought of Bloody Sunday - and that would include many attacks on the nationalist community like loughinisland. The people murdered in loughinisland were like the people in la mon. They weren’t protesting or in a riot situation They were having a drink and the were murdered simply because they were catholic


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    #6922
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,403 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    It’s actually a pathetic go to discussion for Irish nationalists. I actually don’t care where we overlap and where we don’t. I don’t know why you need to get ni british folk to fit into your wee Irish box. It’s clearly an insecurity

    You don't care.....yet you're off on one about how they're the same.


    Also, as for needing to get NI British folk to fit into an Irish box....I'd suggest reading my post again. Specifically where I said "I'll remind you that when this discussion last came up, I was happy to provide examples as to how Ulster Unionist culture and traditions are different from Irish culture.".....

    Are you even reading the posts you're trying to argue with?


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    #6923
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,242 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    You don't care.....yet you're off on one about how they're the same.


    Also, as for needing to get NI British folk to fit into an Irish box....I'd suggest reading my post again. Specifically where I said "I'll remind you that when this discussion last came up, I was happy to provide examples as to how Ulster Unionist culture and traditions are different from Irish culture.".....

    Are you even reading the posts you're trying to argue with?

    So we can agree and move on


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    #6924
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,121 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    The absurdity of today's news that the Orange Order were removing themselves from cross-border projects....because of an agreement with the EU that their British government agreed to. It's genuinely perplexing the level of mental gymnastics required to avoid acknowledging the responsibility the UK (and specifically the DUP who make up a significant number of their membership) hold for.....you know, signing up to an international agreement which they then claimed was fantastic.

    There is no nuance in 'Unionism' until they actually remove the DUP. It is a homogenous entity until those who pretend they are not DUPers remove the DUP.

    Far too many Unionists stand idly by.


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    #6925
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,242 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    There is no nuance in 'Unionism' until they actually remove the DUP. It is a homogenous entity until those who pretend they are not DUPers remove the DUP.

    Far too many Unionists stand idly by.

    There is the arrogance and naivety of republicanism summed up all in one post.
    Such a short post and yet there is so much I could react to in it - but I guess it doesn’t need exaination to anyone, it is so glaring.
    ......and all the time we have a nationalist community in our country whom the majority vote for Sinn Fein, lol, you couldn’t make it up. But that’s their choice and I’m sure they have their reasons, which is up to them and non of my business


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    #6926
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    So if we use this thread a litmus test, I don't see much uniting of minds between Orange & Green, indeed quite the opposite!

    Poles apart, so how do you unite the two parts of the island if such different opinions & aspirations exist between the two main tribes?

    Answer; You don't unite, you just make sure to outbreed the Unionists, win a border poll and you get a "United" Ireland ..... not by uniting with the enemy (unionism) but by outbreeding them.

    Is that good?


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    #6927
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,242 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    So if we use this thread a litmus test, I don't see much uniting of minds between Orange & Green, indeed quite the opposite!

    Poles apart, so how do you unite the two parts of the island if such different opinions & aspirations exist between the two main tribes?

    Answer; You don't unite, you just make sure to outbreed the Unionists, win a border poll and you get a "United" Ireland ..... not by uniting with the enemy (unionism) but by outbreeding them.

    Is that good?

    Yeah that seems to be the plan.
    The problem is it’s like chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, as more and more Catholics enjoy and buy into the benefits of the U.K.


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    #6928
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,403 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    So if we use this thread a litmus test, I don't see much uniting of minds between Orange & Green, indeed quite the opposite!

    Poles apart, so how do you unite the two parts of the island if such different opinions & aspirations exist between the two main tribes?

    Answer; You don't unite, you just make sure to outbreed the Unionists, win a border poll and you get a "United" Ireland ..... not by uniting with the enemy (unionism) but by outbreeding them.

    Is that good?

    Conveniently ignoring the rapidly growing middle ground in NI, primarily voting Alliance/GP who are open to being convinced on the benefits of Unification (or continued membership of the Union).

    Despite your rhetoric, the decision will be carried by this middle ground, not who, 'outbreeds' the other.

    As I've said already, threads like this aren't actually a very useful litmus test; they carry a massive inherent selection bias as they tend to attract the more entrenched views of those who care enough to actually post about it (along with a small handful of WUMs who think their trolling is clever and subtle). I include myself, but then I don't think my view is necessarily reflective of what the average person twenty or thirty years younger than me who grew up in a different environment altogether holds.


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    #6929
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    Conveniently ignoring the rapidly growing middle ground in NI, primarily voting Alliance/GP who are open to being convinced on the benefits of Unification (or continued membership of the Union).

    Despite your rhetoric, the decision will be carried by this middle ground, not who, 'outbreeds' the other.

    As I've said already, threads like this aren't actually a very useful litmus test; they carry a massive inherent selection bias as they tend to attract the more entrenched views of those who care enough to actually post about it (along with a small handful of WUMs who think their trolling is clever and subtle). I include myself, but then I don't think my view is necessarily reflective of what the average person twenty or thirty years younger than me who grew up in a different environment altogether holds.

    The evidence from the last GE is that your “the rapidly growing middle ground in NI, primarily voting Alliance/GP” was largely confined to “traditional” unionist areas. In most such areas, the Alliance came in second to the DUP (ie under FPTP, they are the main “challenger” party to the incumbents). In “traditional” nationalist areas, by way of contrast, the Alliance were coming in fifth or sixth (ie with not even the remotest chance of victory).

    As such, it’s a major assumption to think that, in an either/or referendum, those rapidly growing middle ground Alliance voters are going to vote to unite with Ireland - unless that is, serious effort to persuade them has been put in. That though would require much more effort and political flexibility that the usual “shut up, we’re going to outvote you” crowd are interested in.


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    #6930
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,121 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    So if we use this thread a litmus test, I don't see much uniting of minds between Orange & Green, indeed quite the opposite!

    Poles apart, so how do you unite the two parts of the island if such different opinions & aspirations exist between the two main tribes?

    Answer; You don't unite, you just make sure to outbreed the Unionists, win a border poll and you get a "United" Ireland ..... not by uniting with the enemy (unionism) but by outbreeding them.

    Is that good?

    There is and never was a need to unite with belligerents, they will, like before, be left behind.

    The Jamie Bryson's and the Gregory Campbell's are the ever diminishing rump of those left behind by the GFA.
    They are meeting in the upstairs rooms of pubs these days...literally.

    Look at the protocol...a bit of foot stamping and we have the EU and the UK copperfastening it just yesterday.

    Left behind again. And that will continue to happen as long as Unionism allows the DUP to represent them.


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    #6931
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    I do find the DUP success very strange. Surely the majority, the vast majority, of Protestants can’t be anti gay marriage these days, but somehow they did nit turn on the DUP. Why not? Why wasn’t there an exodus to more liberal unionist over that? Plus Gregory Campbell complaining about too many black people on a TV show and that other buffoon about gay dancers. Very strange that the DUP have held so well.


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