How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Fionn1952

View wrote: »

The evidence from the last GE is that your “the rapidly growing middle ground in NI, primarily voting Alliance/GP” was largely confined to “traditional” unionist areas. In most such areas, the Alliance came in second to the DUP (ie under FPTP, they are the main “challenger” party to the incumbents). In “traditional” nationalist areas, by way of contrast, the Alliance were coming in fifth or sixth (ie with not even the remotest chance of victory).

As such, it’s a major assumption to think that, in an either/or referendum, those rapidly growing middle ground Alliance voters are going to vote to unite with Ireland - unless that is, serious effort to persuade them has been put in. That though would require much more effort and political flexibility that the usual “shut up, we’re going to outvote you” crowd are interested in.

.... That would be why I didn't make the assumption that the rapidly growing middle ground were going to vote for a United Ireland, and specifically said that they were open to being convinced of the benefits of either Unification or remaining part of the Union. That Unification lies in the hands of the middle ground who aren't dogmatically bound to either Unionism or Nationalism has been my point all along; one that I've raised with a great degree of regularity.

The allegedly, 'usual' crowd of shut up we're going to outvote you? Even the most ardent of Shinners talks of dialogue and engagement with Unionists. Apart from a handful of fringe lunatics, this, 'usual crowd' is just a strawman. I suppose it is easier to argue against an opinion that pretty much no one actually holds though.

Regarding APNI's general performance, I'd warrant that FPTP voting is a massive factor there; just taking myself as an example, in a STV system, they would be my first preference every time....when I lived in the Fermanagh South Tyrone constituency with FPTP voting, I voted for SF despite them not reflecting my views; the alternative was someone who reflected my views even less and a wasted vote.

Hamsterchops

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Conveniently ignoring the rapidly growing middle ground in NI, primarily voting Alliance/GP who are open to being convinced on the benefits of Unification (or continued membership of the Union).

Despite your rhetoric, the decision will be carried by this middle ground, not who, 'outbreeds' the other.

Rhetoric? Not sure about that, just stating the obvious deep division between the two main tribes on this island, one Unionist/ Loyalist, one Nationalist/Republican ....

Uniting together as one unified Ireland.
No way baby, no sign of that anytime soon.

The middle ground is good news indeed, once inhabited by the SDLP and the UUP and now (as you say) inhabitited by the Alliance and the Greens.

All I'm saying is that there seems to be no uniting of hearts & minds between Unionism & Nationalism.

BonnieSituation

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Rhetoric? Not sure about that, just stating the obvious deep division between the two main tribes on this island, one Unionist/ Loyalist, one Nationalist/Republican ....

Uniting together as one unified Ireland.
No way baby, no sign of that anytime soon.

The middle ground is good news indeed, once inhabited by the SDLP and the UUP and now (as you say) inhabitited by the Alliance and the Greens.

All I'm saying is that there seems to be no uniting of hearts & minds between Unionism & Nationalism.

And you say it repeatedly every 3 to 4 weeks.

Dyr

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Rhetoric? Not sure about that, just stating the obvious deep division between the two main tribes on this island, one Unionist/ Loyalist, one Nationalist/Republican ....

Uniting together as one unified Ireland.
No way baby, no sign of that anytime soon.

The middle ground is good news indeed, once inhabited by the SDLP and the UUP and now (as you say) inhabitited by the Alliance and the Greens.

All I'm saying is that there seems to be no uniting of hearts & minds between Unionism & Nationalism.

The UUP were never the middle ground.

Hamsterchops

Bambi wrote: »

The UUP were never the middle ground.

You probably mean as Unionists they were never Nationalist leaning in their thinking.

The UUP had the main middle of the road Unionist vote, until the extreme DUP took over, while the SDLP had the main middle of the road Nationalist vote until the extreme Sinn Fein took over.

Back when the UUP and the SDLP held the middle ground the DUP and the Shinners were referred to as being at the two extremes of Loyalism & Republicanism.

Rodin

downcow wrote: »

What I mean about over-egged is that it get more attention than any other atrocity in ni. That’s all

If you asked me to list atrocities in ni I would have a very long list before I even thought of Bloody Sunday - and that would include many attacks on the nationalist community like loughinisland. The people murdered in loughinisland were like the people in la mon. They weren’t protesting or in a riot situation They were having a drink and the were murdered simply because they were catholic

There's a clear distinction between illegal paramilitary activity and state street executions. You fail to see that.

And it gets more attention because the people of Derry kept the pressure on. If they hadn't then Saville would not have exonerated their loved ones. They've no apologies to make for making the incident front and centre...

Unjustified and unjustifiable.

Rodin

There doesn't need to be a uniting of Nationalism and Unionism. They're twins with twin to twin transfusion. As one grows, the other withers.
The Red Sea will part with a vote on reunification and when a United Ireland happens, the sea will close again, swallowing the enslavers once more. Unionism will be consigned to the rubbish bin of history.. another failed empire.

Tá an lá ag teacht....

Dyr

Hamsterchops wrote: »

You probably mean as Unionists they were never Nationalist leaning in their thinking.

The UUP had the main middle of the road Unionist vote, until the extreme DUP took over, while the SDLP had the main middle of the road Nationalist vote until the extreme Sinn Fein took over.

Back when the UUP and the SDLP held the middle ground the DUP and the Shinners were referred to as being at the two extremes of Loyalism & Republicanism.

Nope, the idea that UUP were the Unionist equivalent of the SDLP or Alliance is just not true. It was the UUPs endorsement of the GFA that killed them off with their voters and turned the DUP into the main Unionist party, that's how middle ground the UUP were.

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

You know this?
I couldn’t confirm that but i know he belonged to an organisation who’s raison detre was murder.
I understand he was a thief.

So every BA soldier is a murderer too by default.

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

I can’t understand why you are so infatuated by what ‘Britain’ thinks?
What Britain or anyone else thinks about me doesn't change who I am. Just because the world thought Irish people were thick, alcoholics who liked fighting, doesn’t mean that they we are.

Fixed that for you.

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I do find the DUP success very strange. Surely the majority, the vast majority, of Protestants can’t be anti gay marriage these days, but somehow they did nit turn on the DUP. Why not? Why wasn’t there an exodus to more liberal unionist over that? Plus Gregory Campbell complaining about too many black people on a TV show and that other buffoon about gay dancers. Very strange that the DUP have held so well.

I agree I wish a greater number would go with liberal unionism.
Maybe is reflective of coming out of conflict. The nationalist community surprise me and I assume the don’t support sectarian murder yet they vote in very large numbers for a party that contains sectarian murderers at all levels and their entire party refuses to condemn the sectarian murder of the past. Very hard to understand

downcow

Rodin wrote: »

There's a clear distinction between illegal paramilitary activity and state street executions. You fail to see that.

And it gets more attention because the people of Derry kept the pressure on. If they hadn't then Saville would not have exonerated their loved ones. They've no apologies to make for making the incident front and centre...

Unjustified and unjustifiable.

I have no problem with them raisin it continually. After all they are victims. I remain of the opinion la mon and loughinisland were worse in that the victims were not on a protest march that broke down into a riot with ira men knocking about with guns intending to murder those policing the situation.
In ni terms Bloody Sunday was not more, and I would contend was less, vicious than hundreds of other atrocities.

I think we are going to disagree on this so maybe we should leave it at that

downcow

James Brown wrote: »

So every BA soldier is a murderer too by default.

This makes no sense.
Firstly I didn’t say m mcg was a murderer so no idea what you mean.
Also, the army’s raisondetre is not murder The main aim of their organisation is not sneaking around attempting to shoot unarmed people in the back.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

This makes no sense.
Firstly I didn’t say m mcg was a murderer so no idea what you mean.
Also, the army’s raisondetre is not murder The main aim of their organisation is not sneaking around attempting to shoot unarmed people in the back.

Their main aim is hardly throwing parties and baking cakes, Downcow.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Their main aim is hardly throwing parties and baking cakes, Downcow.

I never suggested it was, but now you raise it, that is fairly close to the main aim of the Army Catering Corps.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I remain of the opinion la mon and loughinisland were worse

Let me explain this to you again and I'd appeal to you to think before you write on this issue in the future. Nobody blames the victims of La Mon and Loughinisland for their own killings.

The Bloody Sunday victims took 40 years and to have their loved ones found innocent of being lawfully shot to death by British Army murderers.

Do you understand the difference?

External Association

I think the Troubles postponed it b0y 50-80 years. I won't see it in my life time, though I'd like to. I don't have a partitionist mentality. The fake state was setup through political chicanery in 1920.

You could remove a segment from most nations like that.

Rodin

downcow wrote: »

I have no problem with them raisin it continually. After all they are victims. I remain of the opinion la mon and loughinisland were worse in that the victims were not on a protest march that broke down into a riot with ira men knocking about with guns intending to murder those policing the situation.
In ni terms Bloody Sunday was not more, and I would contend was less, vicious than hundreds of other atrocities.

I think we are going to disagree on this so maybe we should leave it at that

How dare people be out protesting and fighting for their rights...
Should have been in a pub putting the world to rights over a pint...

Sunny Disposition

Rodin wrote: »

How dare people be out protesting and fighting for their rights...
Should have been in a pub putting the world to rights over a pint...

Hard put any massacre over another. What makes Bloody Sunday almost unique is the lying afterwards by the authorities that the State demanded the public respect. The British State has never recovered its standing in Ireland since that time. Hard believe it, but in West Belfast in the 70s there were quite a few men who had been in the British army. No young fellas in Ireland could join it since without putting themselves at some degree of risk.

Junkyard Tom

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

in West Belfast in the 70s there were quite a few men who had been in the British army.

There were quite a few from the Bogside in the British Army too, it was one of the few routes out of desperate poverty.

Rodin

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

There were quite a few from the Bogside in the British Army too, it was one of the few routes out of desperate poverty.

Poverty because they were 2nd class citizens in a gerrymandered city and discriminatory Unionist state

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Let me explain this to you again and I'd appeal to you to think before you write on this issue in the future. Nobody blames the victims of La Mon and Loughinisland for their own killings.

The Bloody Sunday victims took 40 years and to have their loved ones found innocent of being lawfully shot to death by British Army murderers.

Do you understand the difference?

Every atrocity is different Tom. That’s obvious. I am just saying that in my view Bloody Sunday is not worse than la mon or loughinisland.
No one ever goes on a street protest, during a violent conflict, and doesn’t realise there is a real risk of getting injured or killed. People do go out for dinner without considering that there is a risk of injury or death.
To me it’s very obvious which group were putting themselves most at risk.
You could legitimately admire the Bloody Sunday victims as some of them died for a cause, while the la mon and loughinisland victims were just the unlucky victims of sectarian murder gangs.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Every atrocity is different Tom. That’s obvious. I am just saying that in my view Bloody Sunday is not worse than la mon or loughinisland.
No one ever goes on a street protest, during a violent conflict, and doesn’t realise there is a real risk of getting injured or killed. People do go out for dinner without considering that there is a risk of injury or death.
To me it’s very obvious which group were putting themselves most at risk.
You could legitimately admire the Bloody Sunday victims as some of them died for a cause, while the la mon and loughinisland victims were just the unlucky victims of sectarian murder gangs.

The spin and victim blaming is unreal.....genuinely unbelievable.

downcow

Rodin wrote: »

How dare people be out protesting and fighting for their rights...
Should have been in a pub putting the world to rights over a pint...

I just posted before reading this and I think you’ll find I am acknowledging that some of the Bloody Sunday victims died for a cause

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The spin and victim blaming is unreal.....genuinely unbelievable.

Fionn. Where have I either spun or blamed any victims?
Please be clear why you are accusing me of this.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Fionn. Where have I either spun or blamed any victims?
Please be clear why you are accusing me of this.

No one ever goes on a street protest, during a violent conflict, and doesn’t realise there is a real risk of getting injured or killed.

Awfully akin to, 'well what was she thinking going out dressed like that...."

It is textbook victim blaming, Downcow.

Entirely unconscionable, and I'm sure you'd be the first to start bitching and moaning if anyone suggested that any complaints about British soldiers dying in NI were over-egged, because they should've been aware that there was a real risk of being injured and killed.

If you can't see the issue, you're beyond help.

Rodin

downcow wrote: »

I just posted before reading this and I think you’ll find I am acknowledging that some of the Bloody Sunday victims died for a cause

I doubt they expected to be executed in the street by the Crown or to be sullied with labels of IRA terrorist which didn't belong to them...
It was the travesty of Widgery and the 40years of struggle for the truth that makes Bloody Sunday different .

But ultimately, the modern NI troubles were caused by Unionist discrimination and I for one can't wait to get rid of Unionist rule. And f..k recognising their tradition, because once Unionism is gone, it's gone for good. Their rule has brought nothing but discrimination, hate, intransigence... time to move forward.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

No one ever goes on a street protest, during a violent conflict, and doesn’t realise there is a real risk of getting injured or killed.

Awfully akin to, 'well what was she thinking going out dressed like that...."

It is textbook victim blaming, Downcow.

Entirely unconscionable, and I'm sure you'd be the first to start bitching and moaning if anyone suggested that any complaints about British soldiers dying in NI were over-egged, because they should've been aware that there was a real risk of being injured and killed.

If you can't see the issue, you're beyond help.

Shocking stuff really and I wouldn't engage with it. Those victims have been through enough without somebody here, once again using them for a cheap political taunt.

briany

Rodin wrote: »

I doubt they expected to be executed in the street by the Crown or to be sullied with labels of IRA terrorist which didn't belong to them...
It was the travesty of Widgery and the 40years of struggle for the truth that makes Bloody Sunday different .

But ultimately, the modern NI troubles were caused by Unionist discrimination and I for one can't wait to get rid of Unionist rule. And f..k recognising their tradition, because once Unionism is gone, it's gone for good. Their rule has brought nothing but discrimination, hate, intransigence... time to move forward.

Hate begets hate so saying to Unionists 'f..k your traditions' would only serve to confirm their worst fears about a UI and give a mandate to violent elements. It wouldn't work, in other words.

Rodin

briany wrote: »

Hate begets hate so saying to Unionists 'f..k your traditions' would only serve to confirm their worst fears about a UI and give a mandate to violent elements. It wouldn't work, in other words.

They're right to be afraid.
Once reunited, never again will any part of this island(s) be British.