How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Nqp15hhu

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

There’s a lot there, too much to respond to at once.
I think the plantation still is relevant, because integration never followed.
Saying Bloody Sunday is over egged, hats a pterttt bad choice of words.
Very few if any Catholics think wrongs haven’t been inflicted on Protestants, you’d find it hard to get someone who doesn’t think that tbh. But there’s no question that Irish Catholics have been dispossessed and terribly mistreated over the arc of the history of Irish-British relations. There’s really no question they have been far worse treated than the descendants of the planters.

Not in modern times. I would like you though to provide evidence of a how a Protestant in NI would be treated more favourably in 2021? Could you provide that evidence please, thanks.

Five Eighth

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

This is Ulster Protestant culture, not Unionist culture.

If you are distinguishing between 'Ulster Protestant' culture (e.g. celebrating the relief of the siege of Derry and marching on the 12th July) and 'Unionist' culture then could you give us examples of unique 'Unionist' culture which is shared by unionists in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland?

Nqp15hhu

Five Eighth wrote: »

If you are distinguishing between 'Ulster Protestant' culture (e.g. celebrating the relief of the siege of Derry and marching on the 12th July) and 'Unionist' culture then could you give us examples of unique 'Unionist' culture which is shared by unionists in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland?

Well I suppose being a British citizen and having alignment to the rest of the country. But the point I was making was that not all Unionists are Protestant and not all Unionists have an allegiance to the 12th.

hometruths

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Do you understand what you are saying here? I see this continually raised as a point by southerners, it is quite sectarian and narrowminded to want Protestantism to 'die out'.

Thankfully the 'change' in demographics does not guarantee a United Ireland, and the change is levelling off.

I certainly don't want Protestants in Ulster to die out - my mother is one. I'm simply acknowledging demographic shifts are taking place in an electorate.

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

With all of the negative influence that the Catholic church had on the Republic, one would think that its citizens wouldn't be desperate for a stronger link to Catholism.

Do you understand what you are saying here? I see this continually raised as a point by Northerners.

The idea that we are all raving papists down south in thrall to the Catholic church is a little outdated.

Nqp15hhu

schmittel wrote: »

I certainly don't want Protestants in Ulster to die out - my mother is one. I'm simply acknowledging demographic shifts are taking place in an electorate.



Do you understand what you are saying here? I see this continually raised as a point by Northerners.

The idea that we are all raving papists down south in thrall to the Catholic church is a little outdated.

It is a sectarian point and not particularly relevant given that the increase is not massively greater. Also many of these young Catholics are the product of mixed marriages.

FrancieBrady

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

This is Ulster Protestant culture, not Unionist culture.

Do you ever wonder why southern protestants aren't invested in the same 'culture'?

You have used these events to develop a siege mentality basically. My partner is a protestant and she and her family have zero interest in these events and cringe at the antics north of the border over them.

Nqp15hhu

I do agree that the Orange Order and the 12th Celebrations are backward. I personally have no interest in either organisation or event, I leave my house and go on a drive or am already abroad on that day itself. I think Unionism needs to disassociate itself from the Orange Order if it wishes to gain support from Non-Protestants.

Southern Protestants were absorbed into the Irish culture as they were isolated and did not form their own culture or distinctive group.

Five Eighth

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Well I suppose being a British citizen and having alignment to the rest of the country. But the point I was making was that not all Unionists are Protestant and not all Unionists have an allegiance to the 12th.

Do you not think that your reply is, at the very least, nebulous? I would respectfully suggest that you have a look at what culture means in an nation state context.

hometruths

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

It is a sectarian point and not particularly relevant given that the increase is not massively greater. Also many of these young Catholics are the product of mixed marriages.

But the point is not that the fresh influx of voters are young Catholics or young Protestants, it's the fact that they are young.

It is not a sectarian point.

FrancieBrady

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

I do agree that the Orange Order and the 12th Celebrations are backward. I personally have no interest in either organisation or event, I leave my house and go on a drive or am already abroad on that day itself. I think Unionism needs to disassociate itself from the Orange Order if it wishes to gain support from Non-Protestants.

Southern Protestants were absorbed into the Irish culture as they were isolated and did not form their own culture or distinctive group.

So if you eschew the Orange and the 12th, you have no culture distinct from the rest of us on the island.
Yet you claimed one as distinct from Ulster Unionism.

hometruths

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

I do agree that the Orange Order and the 12th Celebrations are backward. I personally have no interest in either organisation or event, I leave my house and go on a drive or am already abroad on that day itself. I think Unionism needs to disassociate itself from the Orange Order if it wishes to gain support from Non-Protestants.

Southern Protestants were absorbed into the Irish culture as they were isolated and did not form their own culture or distinctive group.

This is a good thing surely?!

Nqp15hhu

Five Eighth wrote: »

Do you not think that your reply is, at the very least, nebulous? I would respectfully suggest that you have a look at what culture means in an nation state context.

Again, I don't owe anyone a justification for my own identity. I am what I am.

Nqp15hhu

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So if you eschew the Orange and the 12th, you have no culture distinct from the rest of us on the island.
Yet you claimed one as distinct from Ulster Unionism.

Culture is more than Orange parades. :pac: As above I don't owe you a justification for my own identity.

FrancieBrady

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Culture is more than Orange parades. :pac: As above I don't owe you a justification for my own identity.

Not asking for justification...I'm asking what it is that is different. downcow struggled with this too, funnily enough.

Five Eighth

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Again, I don't owe anyone a justification for my own identity. I am what I am.

I am not asking you to provide an explanation of your identity. It's just we seem to always hear about the preservation of the 'unionist culture'. I just thought that you, as a unionist, might be able to give examples of this culture.

Nqp15hhu

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not asking for justification...I'm asking what it is that is different. downcow struggled with this too, funnily enough.

I think because you would probably say the usual 'this is a regional difference just as cork to dublin' etc.

Nqp15hhu

Five Eighth wrote: »

I am not asking you to provide an explanation of your identity. It's just we seem to always hear about the preservation of the 'unionist culture'. I just thought that you, as a unionist, might be able to give examples of this culture.

That is a reference to Orange culture. Again nothing to do with me.

briany

schmittel wrote: »

I certainly don't want Protestants in Ulster to die out - my mother is one. I'm simply acknowledging demographic shifts are taking place in an electorate.

The 2021 NI census has been mentioned in the news as being the first NI census that's expected to return a slight Catholic majority, so it's true that demographics in NI are shifting, but what this means re: a UI is certainly not conclusive. The rise of the Alliance party and the Green party in the North shows a growing appetite for non-partisan politics and it would be my suspicion that such people would not vote in a border poll along tribal lines. They'd be looking at the economic and sociological ramifications primarily. This is backed up by identity polls done in NI where many a sizable contingent respond not as British or Irish, but as Northern Irish.

So, in my opinion, for a border poll to return a vote for unification, you'd have to have a Catholic/Irish Nationalist majority so overwhelming that even subtracting the ones who vote pragmatically, you'd still get over the 50 percent mark. I don't think NI is anywhere near that. We may get a border poll in 10 years, but I don't think it would return a unification vote. That is unless there is some force majeure which drastically changes the political picture, but by its very nature force majeure is not a surety. We could suppose the economic ramifications of Brexit might fit that bill, but so far I don't see the fallout there being major enough to push enough NI citizens into yet another economic unknown.

Five Eighth

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

That is a reference to Orange culture. Again nothing to do with me.

Am i right in thinking that 'Ulster culture' is inextricably linked with 'Orange culture'? If you remove the 'Orange Culture' from 'Ulster Culture' what are you left with?

Hamsterchops

I suspect that even in the event of a "United Ireland", there will always be a Northern Ireland (within the new United island). The differences between NI & ROI will still remain.

In other words, NI will always do it's own thing whether it's governed by London or Dublin.

NI leaves the UK, we pay for it and London saves a fortune, happy days for them, heavy price for us as the Gardai move North into Loyalist areas

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do you ever wonder why southern protestants aren't invested in the same 'culture'?

You have used these events to develop a siege mentality basically. My partner is a protestant and she and her family have zero interest in these events and cringe at the antics north of the border over them.

Not one of my Ulster Prod mates have any interest in that side of their culture if anything the sheer batshíttery of it and the fact they escaped has enhanced their appreciation of the Irish culture that they missed out on when they grew up.

One of them is a Doctor from Larne as well... 'magine, an educated Larnonian!

BonnieSituation

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I suspect that even in the event of a "United Ireland", there will alwsys be a Northern Ireland (within the new United island). The differences between NI & ROI will still remain.

In other words, NI will always do it's own thing whether it's governed by London or Dublin.

NI leaves the UK, we pay for it and London saves a fortune, happy days for them, heavy price for us as the Gardai move North into Loyalist areas

Thankfully your ill-educated suspicions can be discounted.

Again, you go othering northern Nationalists. Almost like everyone north and west of Jonesborough are the same.

Nqp15hhu

briany wrote: »

The 2021 NI census has been mentioned in the news as being the first NI census that's expected to return a slight Catholic majority, so it's true that demographics in NI are shifting, but what this means re: a UI is certainly not conclusive. The rise of the Alliance party and the Green party in the North shows a growing appetite for non-partisan politics and it would be my suspicion that such people would not vote in a border poll along tribal lines. They'd be looking at the economic and sociological ramifications primarily. This is backed up by identity polls done in NI where many a sizable contingent respond not as British or Irish, but as Northern Irish.

So, in my opinion, for a border poll to return a vote for unification, you'd have to have a Catholic/Irish Nationalist majority so overwhelming that even subtracting the ones who vote pragmatically, you'd still get over the 50 percent mark. I don't think NI is anywhere near that. We may get a border poll in 10 years, but I don't think it would return a unification vote. That is unless there is some force majeure which drastically changes the political picture, but by its very nature force majeure is not a surety. We could suppose the economic ramifications of Brexit might fit that bill, but so far I don't see the fallout there being major enough to push enough NI citizens into yet another economic unknown.

Just know that this a plurality not a majority. So 55%+ will not have been baptised in a catholic church.

I identify as Northern Irish and am a Unionist, I would imagine most who also identify as Northern Irish like me, see Northern Ireland as their country and would not want to lose that.

FrancieBrady

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

I think because you would probably say the usual 'this is a regional difference just as cork to dublin' etc.

Yeh I would...if it was.

flanna01

Just reading over a few of the topics of conversation on this thread......

In this day and age, can anybody really discriminate about another's religious leanings..?? Would you even care like..??

Paddy Orangeman - Sorry for your troubles there, but Britain couldn't give two hoots about you... Go into any bars or restaurants in 'Landan Tawn' and start your gap about being part of the Union.... Watch the eyes roll back, and the look of distain from your British born and bred Brothers...... I rest my case.

Paddy Greenman - Oh Lord... What the Tans did to us! How we sang rebel songs and bate ye the hell away again... Yet we can't help travelling to soccer matches as true supporters of British towns and citys... How we love to work in England, party in London, Liverpool & Manchester...... And don't forget we shot our load when her Madge graced us with an appearance..

Will ye both go way and cop the fu*k on......!!!

The two Islands share a violent and turbulent past..... But that's what it is, the past.

Who hasn't got Catholic friends?
Who hasn't got Protestant friends?
Who hasn't got Irish friends?
Who hasn't got English friends?
Who really cares...?

The rock that we live on has been around for billions of years before we came along, nobody really owns it.

The Orange Order... The Shamrock this, that or the other....

Everybody needs to grow up a little.

hometruths

briany wrote: »

The 2021 NI census has been mentioned in the news as being the first NI census that's expected to return a slight Catholic majority, so it's true that demographics in NI are shifting, but what this means re: a UI is certainly not conclusive. The rise of the Alliance party and the Green party in the North shows a growing appetite for non-partisan politics and it would be my suspicion that such people would not vote in a border poll along tribal lines. They'd be looking at the economic and sociological ramifications primarily. This is backed up by identity polls done in NI where many a sizable contingent respond not as British or Irish, but as Northern Irish.

So, in my opinion, for a border poll to return a vote for unification, you'd have to have a Catholic/Irish Nationalist majority so overwhelming that even subtracting the ones who vote pragmatically, you'd still get over the 50 percent mark. I don't think NI is anywhere near that. We may get a border poll in 10 years, but I don't think it would return a unification vote. That is unless there is some force majeure which drastically changes the political picture, but by its very nature force majeure is not a surety. We could suppose the economic ramifications of Brexit might fit that bill, but so far I don't see the fallout there being major enough to push enough NI citizens into yet another economic unknown.

Totally agree the future is more about pragmatists vs idealogues rather than Catholic vs Protestant.

This is why Brexit is significant, as you say it potentially provides pragmatic reasons to vote for a UI, particularly given the mess the DUP have made with their input.

But more importantly, aside from the in/out EU economic arguments concerning Brexit, I think the biggest impact of Brexit on pragmatic Northerners will be the realisation that GB does not really care a damn about them. I suspect most English Brexiteers, including Boris Johnson, would think that the loss of Northern ireland might well be a price worth paying for a nice clean Brexit.

If the English were not so worried about losing Scotland, we might already have seen a border poll in the North!

You mention sociological issues as well as economic, which I think is bang on. I have no idea what the young of Northern Ireland are concerned about, but if it is anything like the rest of the world they are more likely to be worried about climate change, equality etc than flags and protecting the right to march provocatively.

The more I see stereotypical Unionists blinded to the ambivalence towards them in London, and blaming Dublin for all their problems, I wonder if they are pushing younger voters towards a UI rather than away from it.

Nqp15hhu

flanna01 wrote: »

Just reading over a few of the topics of conversation on this thread......

In this day and age, can anybody really discriminate about another's religious leanings..?? Would you even care like..??

Paddy Orangeman - Sorry for your troubles there, but Britain couldn't give two hoots about you... Go into any bars or restaurants in 'Landan Tawn' and start your gap about being part of the Union.... Watch the eyes roll back, and the look of distain from your British born and bred Brothers...... I rest my case.

Paddy Greenman - Oh Lord... What the Tans did to us! How we sang rebel songs and bate ye the hell away again... Yet we can't help travelling to soccer matches as true supporters of British towns and citys... How we love to work in England, party in London, Liverpool & Manchester...... And don't forget we shot our load when her Madge graced us with an appearance..

Will ye both go way and cop the fu*k on......!!!

The two Islands share a violent and turbulent past..... But that's what it is, the past.

Who hasn't got Catholic friends?
Who hasn't got Protestant friends?
Who hasn't got Irish friends?
Who hasn't got English friends?
Who really cares...?

The rock that we live on has been around for billions of years before we came along, nobody really owns it.

The Orange Order... The Shamrock this, that or the other....

Everybody needs to grow up a little.

I am not going to comment on the above, I will always remain as a Unionist irrespective of English opinion.

Your comment about religion is true... why do people feel the need to tell us that they have Protestant friends as if they are a peg above the rest of the Southern population and enlightened.

You are not enlightened, you did not grow up in Northern Ireland, you did not experience life here. Having a Protestant friend does not make you unique or special.

Fr D Maugire

downcow wrote: »

I have no idea what your point is about the plantation being a long time ago. Of course it was time ago. As for my community celebrating the siege of Derry - it was a long time ago was well, but why should we not celebrate it. Actually we celebrated in a very positive nature. We do not spend time talking about how an army surrounded the city and wanted to massacre all the people in it and the hardships of that time,, but rather we celebrate the 'relief of Derry' and the saving of the me if n women and children. Many people still celebrate Jesus birth which was 2000 years ago. If

You are probably aware that when Protestants are referred to as 'black bastards', it is traced back to when Presbyterians were referred to as blackmouths - this was because they had little else to eat but the blackberries along the roads, hence the mouths were black.
History also shows that in conflict people are more vicious on those that are different but almost like them. Penal laws were implemented against the Presbyterians with gusto by the Anglicans. In addition the Presbyterians had to deal with negative attention from the Catholics


This might answer your question about why Presbyterians became Unionists.
"The General Assembly agreed unanimously that "a separate parliament for Ireland would, in our judgment, lead to the ascendancy of one class and creed in matters pertaining to religion, education, and civil administration. We do not believe that any guarantees, moral or material, could be devised which would safeguard the rights and privileges of minorities scattered throughout Ireland against encroachment of a majority vested with legislative and executive functions."
IfGladstone found it hard to understand that the Ulster Presbyterians who had led the United Irish movement a century before were implacable opponents of his Home Rule policy.
IfThe nub of the Irish Presbyterian opposition to Home Rule was their lack of trust in an Irish Catholic government to maintain civil and religious liberty for Protestants in Ireland."

You didn't really answer my question though. We already know how Unionists felt about Home Rule, I am asking how Ulster Presbyterians went from believing in a Independent Democratic Republic in which all people would be equal, to the type of belief that you posted above. Why did they have less trust in Catholics who had never been in a position to discriminate against them than the Anglicans who openly did discriminate against them, yet who they joined forces with and would have continued to persecute Catholics if they had had their way.

The anecdote about struggling Presbyterians during penal times does not come across as anything worse than what Catholics had to endure during the same period.

Finally you were dismissive of the relevance of the Plantation to modern NI as it happened a long time ago, but of course it is relevant. Everything that has happened since the Plantation is relevant to modern NI.

Nqp15hhu

schmittel wrote: »

Totally agree the future is more about pragmatists vs idealogues rather than Catholic vs Protestant.

This is why Brexit is significant, as you say it potentially provides pragmatic reasons to vote for a UI, particularly given the mess the DUP have made with their input.

But more importantly, aside from the in/out EU economic arguments concerning Brexit, I think the biggest impact of Brexit on pragmatic Northerners will be the realisation that GB does not really care a damn about them. I suspect most English Brexiteers, including Boris Johnson, would think that the loss of Northern ireland might well be a price worth paying for a nice clean Brexit.

If the English were not so worried about losing Scotland, we might already have seen a border poll in the North!

You mention sociological issues as well as economic, which I think is bang on. I have no idea what the young of Northern Ireland are concerned about, but if it is anything like the rest of the world they are more likely to be worried about climate change, equality etc than flags and protecting the right to march provocatively.

The more I see stereotypical Unionists blinded to the ambivalence towards them in London, and blaming Dublin for all their problems, I wonder if they are pushing younger voters towards a UI rather than away from it.

I don't know why people in ROI keep saying this as if its some sort of epiphany. We all know this and don't care a jot.

FrancieBrady

schmittel wrote: »

Totally agree the future is more about pragmatists vs idealogues rather than Catholic vs Protestant.

This is why Brexit is significant, as you say it potentially provides pragmatic reasons to vote for a UI, particularly given the mess the DUP have made with their input.

But more importantly, aside from the in/out EU economic arguments concerning Brexit, I think the biggest impact of Brexit on pragmatic Northerners will be the realisation that GB does not really care a damn about them. I suspect most English Brexiteers, including Boris Johnson, would think that the loss of Northern ireland might well be a price worth paying for a nice clean Brexit.

If the English were not so worried about losing Scotland, we might already have seen a border poll in the North!

You mention sociological issues as well as economic, which I think is bang on. I have no idea what the young of Northern Ireland are concerned about, but if it is anything like the rest of the world they are more likely to be worried about climate change, equality etc than flags and protecting the right to march provocatively.

The more I see stereotypical Unionists blinded to the ambivalence towards them in London, and blaming Dublin for all their problems, I wonder if they are pushing younger voters towards a UI rather than away from it.

'Unionism' has made a mess of Brexit, because Unionist voters are not prepared to dethrone the DUP.

If FG or FF made that scale of a mess (think the financial crash and FF being decimated) they'd be gone for several electoral cycles.