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All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

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    #2672
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    The biggest hypocrisy I think is if I say anything against covid measures I am dismissed as I don't have the qualifications or credentials by people who don't have them either. Then when people who do have qualifications like Delores Cahill speak out they are dismissed as cranks.


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    #2673
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    Btw I am not anti vax. I have nothing against vaccines being developed and distributed. I am only against any additional restrictions being placed on people who have not taken a covid vaccine. I personally have no interest in taking a covid vaccine not because I fear it will kill me I just don't want it or feel the need for it. Nothing against people who do want to take it it's just not for me.


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    #2674
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,781 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    GT89 wrote: »
    The biggest hypocrisy I think is if I say anything against covid measures I am dismissed as I don't have the qualifications or credentials by people who don't have them either.

    Victim card. Your arguments are addressed like anyone else.
    Then when people who do have qualifications like Delores Cahill speak out they are dismissed as cranks.

    Individual "experts" can be cranks. There are individual doctors and physicians who believe that e.g. vaccines don't work, there are individual medical professionals who make false claims on social media and make money from it. Isolated experts can have extreme opinions and world views for a range of reasons.

    This is why we look at the consensus of experts. If 1000 experts claim X and 2 claim Y, rational people will know X is more likely to be right, whereas irrational thinkers (including conspiracy theorists) will often gravitate towards Y if it validates an extreme view they have.


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    #2675
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    GT89 wrote: »
    Flu vaccines are generally mostly taken up by the vulnerable. No vaccine passports for the flu. Flu vaccines are supposed to work. Surely they would work better if everyone got one in order for herd immunity and less deaths during flu season..
    Again I don't think you actually know what vaccines are.
    GT89 wrote: »
    Impossible to stop all deaths if we go by official figures 2m have died due to covid worldwide. Surely more could have been done to prevent those deaths we should all be wearing at least 2 masks. Shops should be delivery only no excuses for leaving home bar work. At the end of the day this is a deadly virus people shouldn't be going jogging or going shopping.
    More nonsense thrown out to avoid the questions put to you.
    More evading and dishonesty.
    It's a bit sad at this stage you think you're fooling anyone.


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    #2676
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    GT89 wrote: »
    If you keep feeling the need to explain every element make you should stop doing it. It doesn't work on me your not gonna change my views if that's what you want.

    Yes we realise that you are unwilling to listen to actual explanations that contradict the conspiracy theories.

    But why do your views require you to plug your ears, ignore explanations and force you to dodge questions?


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    #2677
    PintOfView
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭PintOfView


    GT89 wrote: »
    Covid 19 is not a severe virus. I find it funny that the CDC are telling people they can meet without masks when I have been meeting my friends for the last 9 months without masks

    I'd expect most reasonable people would want to know the truth, and to then act responsibly based on that.

    You've made clear what you consider to be the truth about covid.
    I think you are likely genuine, but are very much mistaken, and mislead.

    It seems you selectively choose what information to believe, and ignore anything that contradicts your narrative.
    To be fair to you, you are likely reading this misinformation on fringe web sites, and it probably seems plausible to you.

    However there are very many more web sites, and the news media, etc., that directly contradict what you are reading there.
    So we have two interpretations of a single reality, and both can't be correct, can they?

    You would expect a responsible person faced with these contradictory narratives would need to sit down, and fact check, and work out for themselves what is correct, especially given the damage to your community you could cause by getting it wrong (eg. by helping spread the virus)!

    You say "Covid 19 is not a severe virus". In a way you're correct.
    For an estimated 20% or so of people there are no symptoms.
    For the rest it will vary from mild flu like symptoms, to being like a very bad flu, and then
    a percentage of people will need hospital care, and a percentage of those will die.
    The death rate will be much higher in elderly people, and in people of all ages who have underlying vulnerabilities.

    However to say it's just like the flu seems to me to contradict the facts as we know them.
    Normally in Ireland the largest number of deaths occur in Jan, followed by Mar, then Feb.
    Last year the highest month was April, followed by Jan, Mar, Feb.

    Why did 3,500 people die last April, compared to 2,500 on average in prev years?
    The answer is clearly covid (and we don't need to worry about 'with covid' vs 'of covid')
    When we get the numbers for this winter it's likely to be just as clear.

    If you are interested in knowing the reality also take a look at the US weekly deaths for the past 4 years, from all causes
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
    Look at the graph half way down that page.
    The orange line is the limit for normal weekly deaths.
    Why do you think deaths have been so much higher than normal since last April?

    If you, and Dolores Cahill, and anyone else, maintain that covid is just like the flu,
    then you owe us an explanation for why our deaths last April were so high,
    and you need to explain the excess deaths shown by that CDC graph from the US.
    Most people want to know the truth, do you?

    If you cannot do this, and you simply stick to your narrative without reason,
    then how are you different from a cult member who has been brain washed?
    and what value is your opinion in any real discussion?


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    #2678
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    GT89 wrote: »
    Covid 19 is not a severe virus. I find it funny that the CDC are telling people they can meet without masks when I have been meeting my friends for the last 9 months without masks

    Would you be willing to test this theory properly and volunteer in a covid ward with no mask?
    You can only contract covid from a person who has covid so if your friends don't have covid it not a good test on the effectiveness of masks.
    Do you ever discuss conspiracy theories with your friends?


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    #2679
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,066 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    aido79 wrote: »
    Would you be willing to test this theory properly and volunteer in a covid ward with no mask?
    You can only contract covid from a person who has covid so if your friends don't have covid it not a good test on the effectiveness of masks.
    Do you ever discuss conspiracy theories with your friends?

    They are looking for volunteers to be deliberately infected in trials in the UK now so they can figure out exactly how infected you need to get before you get really bad.


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    #2680
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    robinph wrote: »
    They are looking for volunteers to be deliberately infected in trials in the UK now so they can figure out exactly how infected you need to get before you get really bad.

    I would question the ethics of that research. It appears to be a form of imposed natural selection as only Covid-19 conspiracy theorists and the terminally stupid will apply to be volunteers (it could be cogently argued that this is one single cohort). On reflection, ethical or not, perhaps this research should proceed for the greater good.


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    #2681
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    robinph wrote: »
    They are looking for volunteers to be deliberately infected in trials in the UK now so they can figure out exactly how infected you need to get before you get really bad.

    I wonder how many conspiracy theorists would be willing to step away from their keyboards and volunteer. I wonder would they also be willing to waive their right to medical treatment.


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    #2682
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    robinph wrote: »
    They are looking for volunteers to be deliberately infected in trials in the UK now so they can figure out exactly how infected you need to get before you get really bad.

    Could you post a link to this please.


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    #2683
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,066 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    I would question the ethics of that research. It appears to be a form of imposed natural selection as only Covid-19 conspiracy theorists and the terminally stupid will apply to be volunteers (it could be cogently argued that this is one single cohort). On reflection, ethical or not, perhaps this research should proceed for the greater good.

    In fairness they won't actually be giving large doses to anyone such that they get ill, only to try and find the minimum required for an immune response of any kind, so unlikely to be noticed by the volunteers. They will all be young and healthy and not actually paid very much for their time so that money isn't considered the motivation for taking part.

    But students who haven't got any other income at the moment, and not likely to get a vaccine in the next few months it might give them something constructive to do to pass the time for a bit.


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    #2684
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,066 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Could you post a link to this please.

    BBC news:
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-56097088

    The trial registration website:
    https://ukcovidchallenge.com/covid-19-volunteer-trials/


  • Options
    #2685
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    robinph wrote: »
    In fairness they won't actually be giving large doses to anyone such that they get ill, only to try and find the minimum required for an immune response of any kind, so unlikely to be noticed by the volunteers. They will all be young and healthy and not actually paid very much for their time so that money isn't considered the motivation for taking part.

    But students who haven't got any other income at the moment, and not likely to get a vaccine in the next few months it might give them something constructive to do to pass the time for a bit.

    Well, getting infected with Covid-19 could hardly be described as doing something constructive from a personal perspective! I would be wondering about the possibilities of Long Covid.

    Anyway, as a matter of interest, do you know these researchers? Perhaps you could suggest the inclusion of the terminally stupid conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists could be be contacted to take part. They would be paid and get to prove that Covid-19 is only a mild flu. Win win for them.


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    #2686
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    robinph wrote: »
    BBC news:
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-56097088

    The trial registration website:
    https://ukcovidchallenge.com/covid-19-volunteer-trials/

    Cheers


  • Options
    #2687
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    PintOfView wrote: »
    .However to say it's just like the flu seems to me to contradict the facts as we know them.
    Normally in Ireland the largest number of deaths occur in Jan, followed by Mar, then Feb.
    Last year the highest month was April, followed by Jan, Mar, Feb.

    Why did 3,500 people die last April, compared to 2,500 on average in prev years?
    The answer is clearly covid (and we don't need to worry about 'with covid' vs 'of covid')
    When we get the numbers for this winter it's likely to be just as clear.

    If you are interested in knowing the reality also take a look at the US weekly deaths for the past 4 years, from all causes
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
    Look at the graph half way down that page.
    The orange line is the limit for normal weekly deaths.
    Why do you think deaths have been so much higher than normal since last April?

    If you, and Dolores Cahill, and anyone else, maintain that covid is just like the flu,
    then you owe us an explanation for why our deaths last April were so high,
    and you need to explain the excess deaths shown by that CDC graph from the US.
    Most people want to know the truth, do you?

    If you cannot do this, and you simply stick to your narrative without reason,
    then how are you different from a cult member who has been brain washed?
    and what value is your opinion in any real discussion?

    Because of how badly nursing homes were being managed when covid first hit that's why. It's a well known fact that the reason so many died.


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    #2688
    PintOfView
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭PintOfView


    GT89 wrote: »
    Because of how badly nursing homes were being managed when covid first hit that's why. It's a well known fact that the reason so many died.

    So, are you saying that people in nursing homes died from bad porridge?
    or from something else?

    And why didn't large numbers die every other April?


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    #2689
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,066 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Can't keep up with if covid-19 is just a bit of a mild flu or super dangerous, seems to change from one moment to the next. One second masks are totally useless, the next the lack of masks is why so many people died in nursing homes. One moment vaccines haven't been tested sufficiently, the next vaccines are fine and would be taken if only covid itself was more deadly so what's the point of vaccination.


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    #2690
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    GT89 wrote: »
    Because of how badly nursing homes were being managed when covid first hit that's why. It's a well known fact that the reason so many died.
    Cool. Have a source for this?
    Evidence?
    Just making that up?

    Again, you're deflecting and being completely dishonest.
    Why?


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    #2691
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    GT89 wrote: »
    I never said they didn't stop infectious diseases they may do I don't know.
    GT89 wrote: »
    Yes social distancing, lockdowns and masks would not stop a highly contagious deadly virus.

    You are contradicting yourself. Which is it?


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    #2692
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    PintOfView wrote: »
    So, are you saying that people in nursing homes died from bad porridge?
    or from something else?

    And why didn't large numbers die every other April?

    Maybe they didn't die at all and we have to wait for the truth to be exposed...


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    #2693
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    PintOfView wrote: »
    So, are you saying that people in nursing homes died from bad porridge?
    or from something else?

    And why didn't large numbers die every other April?

    Take over 500 sick elderly people out of hospitals where they have specialised equipment and staff and dump them overnight into nursing homes. What do you think might happen?


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    #2694
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    sabat wrote: »
    Take over 500 sick elderly people out of hospitals where they have specialised equipment and staff and dump them overnight into nursing homes. What do you think might happen?
    Why are you asking this weird random question after you've run away from every question put to you, including the main one about this topic as yet unanswered.

    Again, abject hypocrisy from you guys.


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    #2695
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    King Mob wrote: »
    Why are you asking this weird random question after you've run away from every question put to you, including the main one about this topic as yet unanswered.

    Again, abject hypocrisy from your guys.

    You have literary comprehension difficulties. That's the issue.


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    #2696
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    sabat wrote: »
    You have literary comprehension difficulties. That's the issue.
    No I assure you, that's not the issue. Again, you're deflecting and avoiding.
    It's dishonest. It's cowardly.

    Answer the questions.
    Or admit you can't.


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    #2697
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    King Mob wrote: »
    No I assure you, that's not the issue. Again, you're deflecting and avoiding.
    It's dishonest. It's cowardly.

    Answer the questions.
    Or admit you can't.

    And back on ignore you go.


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    #2698
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    sabat wrote: »
    And back on ignore you go.
    How very brave of you.
    Proves my point though.

    Conspiracy theorists like yourself have been consistently dishonest and evasive this entire crisis.
    You can't even address why you have to be completely dishonest.

    Do you guys never wonder why?


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    #2699
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,066 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    sabat wrote: »
    Take over 500 sick elderly people out of hospitals where they have specialised equipment and staff and dump them overnight into nursing homes. What do you think might happen?

    So why do you think that covid restrictions are going to be permanent?
    What is the benefit to any country in having current restrictions on their populations?
    If this is some coordinated plan by all world governments, who told them to do this to their populations at the same time?
    How come governments which were not even in power a year ago are also following this same plan which their predecessor government was following to place restrictions on their populations?


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    #2700
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,781 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    sabat wrote: »
    Take over 500 sick elderly people out of hospitals where they have specialised equipment and staff and dump them overnight into nursing homes. What do you think might happen?

    Right but what does this have to do with measures being made "permanent" or with conspiracies in general?

    You, for example, have claimed Covid is part of a giant global conspiracy perpetrated by the "elites", what's the story with that?


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    #2701
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    Think about if there is severe virus a pandemic none the less going around the world then why are airports still open for business and have been for the last year?


This discussion has been closed.
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