Average V Median wage Ireland?

Benedict · 05-03-2021 12:44pm

Cyrus wrote: »

what is an average median

Apologies - I should have just said "median". So No 369 should read just "median".

(It's worth mentioning that the terms "average median" and "average mean" are used sometimes but I agree that just plain median and mean or average are less confusing)

blanch152 · 05-03-2021 12:51pm

Benedict wrote: »

Average median salaries Ireland: (Courtesy of "payscale.com - 2021 figures)

Project Architect 43k
Solicitor 49k
Teacher 33k
Hotel Manager 36k

These are professional jobs? And the typical wage is 49k right?????

That is nonsense

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0060_2020.pdf

No full-time teacher is on a salary of less than 37k, so the median can't be below that.

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 12:53pm

blanch152 wrote: »

That is nonsense

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0060_2020.pdf

No full-time teacher is on a salary of less than 37k, so the median can't be below that.

Maybe people who submit their wage data to payscale are unhappy or inexperienced?

05-03-2021 12:56pm

blanch152 wrote: »

That is nonsense
.........

No full-time teacher is on a salary of less than 37k, so the median can't be below that.

Benedict includes part time and temp workers when it suits him.
I'd not class a hotel manager as a professional job tbh but that's off topic.

hots · 05-03-2021 1:19pm

Cyrus wrote: »

what is an average median

It does make sense that someone who conflates these terms themselves would also struggle to understand the difference when a politician uses these words.

ELM327 · 05-03-2021 1:44pm

stefanovich wrote: »

USC is very "progressive"

USC is absolutely progressive, the more you earn the more you pay.
It's nearly flat rate.

Percentage is progressive. The current system is punitive if you bother to get off your hole and work.

05-03-2021 1:50pm

ELM327 wrote: »

............
It's nearly flat rate.............

Standard rates and thresholds of USC for 2021
2021 Rate
First €12,012 0.5%
Next €8,675 2%
Next €49,357 4.5%
Balance 8%

It's far from flat rate if you look at the numbers.

ELM327 · 05-03-2021 1:52pm

Yes and it has enough "progression" in the lower rates to satisfy the RBBs of this world.
But you pay *something* on every cent you earn.

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 2:19pm

Russian went to a flat rate and their tax take increased.

Brussels Sprout · 05-03-2021 2:38pm

Whenever I see anyone, in any country, advocate for a flat tax I assume that they are a high earner who wants to pay less tax. Not that people shouldn't lobby for their own interests - just that it's fairly obvious that, ultimately, their requests aren't coming from a place of wanting the best for everyone.

Benedict · 05-03-2021 2:42pm

hots wrote: »

It does make sense that someone who conflates these terms themselves would also struggle to understand the difference when a politician uses these words.

To be fair, I corrected my mistake.

But okay, do you have a list of average-type jobs where the median is 49k? I mean basic pay (forget overtime, investments etc.)?

So let's hear it!

Who's up for the challenge?

ELM327 · 05-03-2021 2:58pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Whenever I see anyone, in any country, advocate for a flat tax I assume that they are a high earner who wants to pay less tax. Not that people shouldn't lobby for their own interests - just that it's fairly obvious that, ultimately, their requests aren't coming from a place of wanting the best for everyone.

This is the natural assumption to make and it is true

But I wanted a reorged tax band even 10 years ago when I was earning 26k

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 4:52pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Whenever I see anyone, in any country, advocate for a flat tax I assume that they are a high earner who wants to pay less tax. Not that people shouldn't lobby for their own interests - just that it's fairly obvious that, ultimately, their requests aren't coming from a place of wanting the best for everyone.

When Friedman analysed things in the US he realised that the rate of flat tax needed to pull in the same level of revenue was about 15%.

The way it is set up now the poor pay some, the middle class pay a lot and the very rich use tax loopholes and right offs to pay very little.

I wonder what the flat rate we'd need here would be to get the same revenue? I wonder if it is less than 20%?

Brussels Sprout · 05-03-2021 5:01pm

stefanovich wrote: »

When Friedman analysed things in the US he realised that the rate of flat tax needed to pull in the same level of revenue was about 15%.

The way it is set up now the poor pay some, the middle class pay a lot and the very rich use tax loopholes and right offs to pay very little.

I wonder what the flat rate we'd need here would be to get the same revenue? I wonder if it is less than 20%?

If the very wealthy are using their resources to avoid paying tax under a progressive tax system, I don't see how switching to a flat tax is going to change that.

hots · 05-03-2021 5:26pm

Benedict wrote: »

To be fair, I corrected my mistake.

But okay, do you have a list of average-type jobs where the median is 49k? I mean basic pay (forget overtime, investments etc.)?

So let's hear it!

Who's up for the challenge?

You're the only one who thinks the median is 49k.

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 5:46pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

If the very wealthy are using their resources to avoid paying tax under a progressive tax system, I don't see how switching to a flat tax is going to change that.

You also remove all tax loopholes.

Geuze · 05-03-2021 6:09pm

Benedict wrote: »

Average median salaries Ireland: (Courtesy of "payscale.com - 2021 figures)

Project Architect 43k
Solicitor 49k
Teacher 33k
Hotel Manager 36k

These are professional jobs? And the typical wage is 49k right?????

There is no such phrase as "average median".

Why somebody would use a .com website is beyond me.

Use the CSO!!!!

Teachers start on 34k approx, that is the start of their scale, not the average.

Two mins looking up www.asti.ie or www.tui.ie will tell you that.

There are sol on Boards on 70k by age 30.

Geuze · 05-03-2021 6:12pm

Benedict wrote: »

To be fair, I corrected my mistake.

But okay, do you have a list of average-type jobs where the median is 49k? I mean basic pay (forget overtime, investments etc.)?

The mean annual earnings in Ireland is 49k, for FTW.

Mean, mean, mean, not the median.

The mean is pulled up by the high earning outliers.

This has been stated over and over.

Also the 49k includes all earnings: overtime, bonuses, any irregular earnings.

The 49k is not "mean basic pay".

Geuze · 05-03-2021 6:13pm

stefanovich wrote: »

When Friedman analysed things in the US he realised that the rate of flat tax needed to pull in the same level of revenue was about 15%.

The way it is set up now the poor pay some, the middle class pay a lot and the very rich use tax loopholes and right offs to pay very little.

I wonder what the flat rate we'd need here would be to get the same revenue? I wonder if it is less than 20%?

An interesting question, which I suspect can be answered.

Give me 5 mins.

2018 total gross income = 106 bn

https://revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/income-distributors/income-tax-calculation.pdf

105,491m

Net tax due = 16,589, so the effective rate on gross income is currently 15.7%

Geuze · 05-03-2021 6:20pm

2018 USC revenue = 3197 + 541 = 3738m

Tax + USC 2018 = 20,327m

Flat tax to replace income tax and USC = 20,327 / 105,491 = 19.27%

Do my calculations look okay?

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 6:27pm

You also need to realise that a lot of people working are paying 0 tax and also receiving social welfare. Replace social welfare with a negative income tax that subsidies low earners and the unemployed effectively consolidating revenue and social welfare and ensuring everyone has a minimum income.

Does the gross income include dividends and capital gains etc?

Brussels Sprout · 05-03-2021 7:23pm

stefanovich wrote: »

You also remove all tax loopholes.

Good luck with that.

Geuze · 06-03-2021 1:18am

stefanovich wrote: »

Does the gross income include dividends and capital gains etc?

Dividends are income, so yes.

Capital gains are not income, so no.

Benedict · 06-03-2021 8:47am

It's important to read contributions properly so as to avoid misinterpreting them.

Of course I don't think that the median ftw wage in Ireland is 49k - that's the whole point of what I'm saying!

The message that every Tom Dick and Harry is earning 49k is false. In order to drive home the point that it's false I gave the challenge.

There is a widespread perception that if you're earning say 40k, most ftw are getting more than you are when in fact statistically you're doing well.

Lot's of criticism - but I'm still waiting for someone to show I'm wrong!!

Cyrus · 06-03-2021 11:03am

Benedict wrote: »

It's important to read contributions properly so as to avoid misinterpreting them.

Of course I don't think that the median ftw wage in Ireland is 49k - that's the whole point of what I'm saying!

The message that every Tom Dick and Harry is earning 49k is false. In order to drive home the point that it's false I gave the challenge.

There is a widespread perception that if you're earning say 40k, most ftw are getting more than you are when in fact statistically you're doing well.

Lot's of criticism - but I'm still waiting for someone to show I'm wrong!!

All depends on where you are living try telling some one in Dublin that needs somewhere to live that they are doing well on 40k gross income per annum.

Are you on a crusade to improve people’s self esteem or something

Benedict · 06-03-2021 12:59pm

Cyrus wrote: »

All depends on where you are living try telling some one in Dublin that needs somewhere to live that they are doing well on 40k gross income per annum.

Are you on a crusade to improve people’s self esteem or something

I was hoping that someone would be in a position to say definitively what the median ftw is in Ireland. And it seems nobody is!

I do think that it would help Irish ftw to know the truth, yes.

If CSO can calculate the average ftw, they must have sufficient data to calculate the median - but they don't do it!

The must know the ftw, then add them up to get the average.

So why not publish the median?

The UK does!

Lumen · 06-03-2021 1:08pm

https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/earnings/earnings-faqs/

Analysis from 2018

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/

Benedict · 06-03-2021 6:52pm

Lumen wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/earnings/earnings-faqs/

Analysis from 2018

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/

Lots of info here - but I can't see that the e593 pw is the median wage for ftw? Maybe I'm wrong - but I can't see it!

I'll say it again. If you went for a drink in your local and Bill Gates was sitting at a table, then (according to "averaging" rules) everyone in the pub is a millionaire.

When it comes to assessing what is a typical wage for a ftw, averages should be consigned to the nearest bin.

The median is what counts - and nobody knows what it is! And if the average ftw wage is known, there must be enough data to figure out the median.

Lumen · 06-03-2021 7:05pm

Benedict wrote: »

Lots of info here - but I can't see that the e593 pw is the median wage for ftw? Maybe I'm wrong - but I can't see it!

I'm not sure what you're not seeing. Have you following the links?

Here are more specifics:

Distribution
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/

Annual Earnings
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/annualearnings/

I don't see many references to "full time workers" although I think the data is collected, see survey forms:

https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/earnings/earningshoursandemploymentcostssurveyforms/

In any case, there seems to be plenty of information to roughly assess the differences between mean and median, if you want more detail from the CSO maybe you should do a FOI request.

Benedict · 06-03-2021 7:18pm

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're not seeing. Have you following the links?

Here are more specifics:

Distribution
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/

Annual Earnings
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/annualearnings/

I don't see many references to "full time workers" although I think the data is collected, see survey forms:

https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/earnings/earningshoursandemploymentcostssurveyforms/

In any case, there seems to be plenty of information to roughly assess the differences between mean and median, if you want more detail from the CSO maybe you should do a FOI request.

Thank you - but with respect, do you know what the median wage for a ftw is? And would you agree that if it is possible to calculate the average ftw wage, then there is sufficient data to calculate the median wage?

Average V Median wage Ireland?

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