Average V Median wage Ireland?

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 11:41am

So what's the point here? Rich people are rich and need to be taxed more? Maybe the government shouldn't be so wasteful with our money.

Flat tax across the board will get rid of a lot of bureaucracy. It could be set at a level that would bring in exactly the same amount of revenue and everyone would be better off. (as per Milton Friedman)

We also need a better way of collecting tax from the self employed. So many openly admit being tax frauds. It's a perk of the job.

ELM327 · 05-03-2021 11:58am

Benedict wrote: »

Of course no matter what you earn there will be those earning more and one accepts that. But the phrase "below average" has deep resonance for people and according to what we hear from politicians (check it for yourself), you're "below average" if you're earning, let's say, 40k.

In fact, if you're earning 40k, you're earning more than most ftw in the country! But that's not what we're being told.

It's a clear case of mis-information.

In his Journal article (already quoted) O'Rourke reckons that 64% of ftw earn less than the average - but not less than the median.

It categorically is not misinformation. The use of the word "average" can apply to mean, median or mode. People conflate Average with Median but it's actually used as mean.

It's general poor comprehension, not misinformation, that is the cause of the problem.

ELM327 · 05-03-2021 11:59am

stefanovich wrote: »

So what's the point here? Rich people are rich and need to be taxed more? Maybe the government shouldn't be so wasteful with our money.

Flat tax across the board will get rid of a lot of bureaucracy. It could be set at a level that would bring in exactly the same amount of revenue and everyone would be better off. (as per Milton Friedman)

We also need a better way of collecting tax from the self employed. So many openly admit being tax frauds. It's a perk of the job.

This would be brilliant.

Benedict · 05-03-2021 12:00pm

stefanovich wrote: »

So what's the point here? Rich people are rich and need to be taxed more? Maybe the government shouldn't be so wasteful with our money.

Flat tax across the board will get rid of a lot of bureaucracy. It could be set at a level that would bring in exactly the same amount of revenue and everyone would be better off. (as per Milton Friedman)

We also need a better way of collecting tax from the self employed. So many openly admit being tax frauds. It's a perk of the job.

Well, the point could be made that if the message is pedalled that the streets are paved with gold - when in fact only a few streets are paved with gold - then it can lead to growing dissatisfaction and unrest. How many people bought apartments in Bulgaria in 2006 and wouldn't have if they'd known the truth?

And the truth is that the public perception of income levels is inflated.

Have a look at payscale.com and you'll see that the median wage for a solicitor is barely above what most people regard as typical workers' wage.

Most software engineers are well below average in terms of income.

05-03-2021 12:16pm

ELM327 wrote: »

This would be brilliant.

If a flat tax across the board was implemented it would have to be accompanied with a tax credit so folk on €20k/annum pay next to no PAYE.
Otherwise low income folk would require some sort of SW payment or the minimum wage would need to be increased.

Will never happen, progressive tax is here to stay, undoubtedly.

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 12:20pm

Augeo wrote: »

If a flat tax across the board was implemented it would have to be accompanied with a tax credit so folk on €20k/annum pay next to no PAYE.
Otherwise low income folk would require some sort of SW payment or the minimum wage would need to be increased.

Will never happen, progressive tax is here to stay, undoubtedly.

Negative income tax is the solution for low earners.

I know it won't - government don't want to give up control of our money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM

ELM327 · 05-03-2021 12:22pm

Augeo wrote: »

If a flat tax across the board was implemented it would have to be accompanied with a tax credit so folk on €20k/annum pay next to no PAYE.
Otherwise low income folk would require some sort of SW payment or the minimum wage would need to be increased.

Will never happen, progressive tax is here to stay, undoubtedly.

Flat tax with a small tax credit.

How I'd do it is just remove PAYE and PRSI, and expand USC.

Benedict · 05-03-2021 12:29pm

Average median salaries Ireland: (Courtesy of "payscale.com - 2021 figures)

Project Architect 43k
Solicitor 49k
Teacher 33k
Hotel Manager 36k

These are professional jobs? And the typical wage is 49k right?????

Cyrus · 05-03-2021 12:30pm

Benedict wrote: »

Average median salaries Ireland: (Courtesy of "payscale.com - 2021 figures)

Project Architect 43k
Solicitor 49k
Teacher 33k
Hotel Manager 36k

These are professional jobs? And the typical wage is 49k right?????

what is an average median

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 12:35pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Flat tax with a small tax credit.

How I'd do it is just remove PAYE and PRSI, and expand USC.

USC is very "progressive"

Benedict · 05-03-2021 12:44pm

Cyrus wrote: »

what is an average median

Apologies - I should have just said "median". So No 369 should read just "median".

(It's worth mentioning that the terms "average median" and "average mean" are used sometimes but I agree that just plain median and mean or average are less confusing)

blanch152 · 05-03-2021 12:51pm

Benedict wrote: »

Average median salaries Ireland: (Courtesy of "payscale.com - 2021 figures)

Project Architect 43k
Solicitor 49k
Teacher 33k
Hotel Manager 36k

These are professional jobs? And the typical wage is 49k right?????

That is nonsense

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0060_2020.pdf

No full-time teacher is on a salary of less than 37k, so the median can't be below that.

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 12:53pm

blanch152 wrote: »

That is nonsense

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0060_2020.pdf

No full-time teacher is on a salary of less than 37k, so the median can't be below that.

Maybe people who submit their wage data to payscale are unhappy or inexperienced?

05-03-2021 12:56pm

blanch152 wrote: »

That is nonsense
.........

No full-time teacher is on a salary of less than 37k, so the median can't be below that.

Benedict includes part time and temp workers when it suits him.
I'd not class a hotel manager as a professional job tbh but that's off topic.

hots · 05-03-2021 1:19pm

Cyrus wrote: »

what is an average median

It does make sense that someone who conflates these terms themselves would also struggle to understand the difference when a politician uses these words.

ELM327 · 05-03-2021 1:44pm

stefanovich wrote: »

USC is very "progressive"

USC is absolutely progressive, the more you earn the more you pay.
It's nearly flat rate.

Percentage is progressive. The current system is punitive if you bother to get off your hole and work.

05-03-2021 1:50pm

ELM327 wrote: »

............
It's nearly flat rate.............

Standard rates and thresholds of USC for 2021
2021 Rate
First €12,012 0.5%
Next €8,675 2%
Next €49,357 4.5%
Balance 8%

It's far from flat rate if you look at the numbers.

ELM327 · 05-03-2021 1:52pm

Yes and it has enough "progression" in the lower rates to satisfy the RBBs of this world.
But you pay *something* on every cent you earn.

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 2:19pm

Russian went to a flat rate and their tax take increased.

Brussels Sprout · 05-03-2021 2:38pm

Whenever I see anyone, in any country, advocate for a flat tax I assume that they are a high earner who wants to pay less tax. Not that people shouldn't lobby for their own interests - just that it's fairly obvious that, ultimately, their requests aren't coming from a place of wanting the best for everyone.

Benedict · 05-03-2021 2:42pm

hots wrote: »

It does make sense that someone who conflates these terms themselves would also struggle to understand the difference when a politician uses these words.

To be fair, I corrected my mistake.

But okay, do you have a list of average-type jobs where the median is 49k? I mean basic pay (forget overtime, investments etc.)?

So let's hear it!

Who's up for the challenge?

ELM327 · 05-03-2021 2:58pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Whenever I see anyone, in any country, advocate for a flat tax I assume that they are a high earner who wants to pay less tax. Not that people shouldn't lobby for their own interests - just that it's fairly obvious that, ultimately, their requests aren't coming from a place of wanting the best for everyone.

This is the natural assumption to make and it is true

But I wanted a reorged tax band even 10 years ago when I was earning 26k

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 4:52pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Whenever I see anyone, in any country, advocate for a flat tax I assume that they are a high earner who wants to pay less tax. Not that people shouldn't lobby for their own interests - just that it's fairly obvious that, ultimately, their requests aren't coming from a place of wanting the best for everyone.

When Friedman analysed things in the US he realised that the rate of flat tax needed to pull in the same level of revenue was about 15%.

The way it is set up now the poor pay some, the middle class pay a lot and the very rich use tax loopholes and right offs to pay very little.

I wonder what the flat rate we'd need here would be to get the same revenue? I wonder if it is less than 20%?

Brussels Sprout · 05-03-2021 5:01pm

stefanovich wrote: »

When Friedman analysed things in the US he realised that the rate of flat tax needed to pull in the same level of revenue was about 15%.

The way it is set up now the poor pay some, the middle class pay a lot and the very rich use tax loopholes and right offs to pay very little.

I wonder what the flat rate we'd need here would be to get the same revenue? I wonder if it is less than 20%?

If the very wealthy are using their resources to avoid paying tax under a progressive tax system, I don't see how switching to a flat tax is going to change that.

hots · 05-03-2021 5:26pm

Benedict wrote: »

To be fair, I corrected my mistake.

But okay, do you have a list of average-type jobs where the median is 49k? I mean basic pay (forget overtime, investments etc.)?

So let's hear it!

Who's up for the challenge?

You're the only one who thinks the median is 49k.

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 5:46pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

If the very wealthy are using their resources to avoid paying tax under a progressive tax system, I don't see how switching to a flat tax is going to change that.

You also remove all tax loopholes.

Geuze · 05-03-2021 6:09pm

Benedict wrote: »

Average median salaries Ireland: (Courtesy of "payscale.com - 2021 figures)

Project Architect 43k
Solicitor 49k
Teacher 33k
Hotel Manager 36k

These are professional jobs? And the typical wage is 49k right?????

There is no such phrase as "average median".

Why somebody would use a .com website is beyond me.

Use the CSO!!!!

Teachers start on 34k approx, that is the start of their scale, not the average.

Two mins looking up www.asti.ie or www.tui.ie will tell you that.

There are sol on Boards on 70k by age 30.

Geuze · 05-03-2021 6:12pm

Benedict wrote: »

To be fair, I corrected my mistake.

But okay, do you have a list of average-type jobs where the median is 49k? I mean basic pay (forget overtime, investments etc.)?

The mean annual earnings in Ireland is 49k, for FTW.

Mean, mean, mean, not the median.

The mean is pulled up by the high earning outliers.

This has been stated over and over.

Also the 49k includes all earnings: overtime, bonuses, any irregular earnings.

The 49k is not "mean basic pay".

Geuze · 05-03-2021 6:13pm

stefanovich wrote: »

When Friedman analysed things in the US he realised that the rate of flat tax needed to pull in the same level of revenue was about 15%.

The way it is set up now the poor pay some, the middle class pay a lot and the very rich use tax loopholes and right offs to pay very little.

I wonder what the flat rate we'd need here would be to get the same revenue? I wonder if it is less than 20%?

An interesting question, which I suspect can be answered.

Give me 5 mins.

2018 total gross income = 106 bn

https://revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/income-distributors/income-tax-calculation.pdf

105,491m

Net tax due = 16,589, so the effective rate on gross income is currently 15.7%

Geuze · 05-03-2021 6:20pm

2018 USC revenue = 3197 + 541 = 3738m

Tax + USC 2018 = 20,327m

Flat tax to replace income tax and USC = 20,327 / 105,491 = 19.27%

Do my calculations look okay?

stefanovich · 05-03-2021 6:27pm

You also need to realise that a lot of people working are paying 0 tax and also receiving social welfare. Replace social welfare with a negative income tax that subsidies low earners and the unemployed effectively consolidating revenue and social welfare and ensuring everyone has a minimum income.

Does the gross income include dividends and capital gains etc?

Brussels Sprout · 05-03-2021 7:23pm

stefanovich wrote: »

You also remove all tax loopholes.

Good luck with that.

Geuze · 06-03-2021 1:18am

stefanovich wrote: »

Does the gross income include dividends and capital gains etc?

Dividends are income, so yes.

Capital gains are not income, so no.

Benedict · 06-03-2021 8:47am

It's important to read contributions properly so as to avoid misinterpreting them.

Of course I don't think that the median ftw wage in Ireland is 49k - that's the whole point of what I'm saying!

The message that every Tom Dick and Harry is earning 49k is false. In order to drive home the point that it's false I gave the challenge.

There is a widespread perception that if you're earning say 40k, most ftw are getting more than you are when in fact statistically you're doing well.

Lot's of criticism - but I'm still waiting for someone to show I'm wrong!!

Cyrus · 06-03-2021 11:03am

Benedict wrote: »

It's important to read contributions properly so as to avoid misinterpreting them.

Of course I don't think that the median ftw wage in Ireland is 49k - that's the whole point of what I'm saying!

The message that every Tom Dick and Harry is earning 49k is false. In order to drive home the point that it's false I gave the challenge.

There is a widespread perception that if you're earning say 40k, most ftw are getting more than you are when in fact statistically you're doing well.

Lot's of criticism - but I'm still waiting for someone to show I'm wrong!!

All depends on where you are living try telling some one in Dublin that needs somewhere to live that they are doing well on 40k gross income per annum.

Are you on a crusade to improve people’s self esteem or something

Benedict · 06-03-2021 12:59pm

Cyrus wrote: »

All depends on where you are living try telling some one in Dublin that needs somewhere to live that they are doing well on 40k gross income per annum.

Are you on a crusade to improve people’s self esteem or something

I was hoping that someone would be in a position to say definitively what the median ftw is in Ireland. And it seems nobody is!

I do think that it would help Irish ftw to know the truth, yes.

If CSO can calculate the average ftw, they must have sufficient data to calculate the median - but they don't do it!

The must know the ftw, then add them up to get the average.

So why not publish the median?

The UK does!

Lumen · 06-03-2021 1:08pm

https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/earnings/earnings-faqs/

Analysis from 2018

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/

Benedict · 06-03-2021 6:52pm

Lumen wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/earnings/earnings-faqs/

Analysis from 2018

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/

Lots of info here - but I can't see that the e593 pw is the median wage for ftw? Maybe I'm wrong - but I can't see it!

I'll say it again. If you went for a drink in your local and Bill Gates was sitting at a table, then (according to "averaging" rules) everyone in the pub is a millionaire.

When it comes to assessing what is a typical wage for a ftw, averages should be consigned to the nearest bin.

The median is what counts - and nobody knows what it is! And if the average ftw wage is known, there must be enough data to figure out the median.

Lumen · 06-03-2021 7:05pm

Benedict wrote: »

Lots of info here - but I can't see that the e593 pw is the median wage for ftw? Maybe I'm wrong - but I can't see it!

I'm not sure what you're not seeing. Have you following the links?

Here are more specifics:

Distribution
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/

Annual Earnings
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/annualearnings/

I don't see many references to "full time workers" although I think the data is collected, see survey forms:

https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/earnings/earningshoursandemploymentcostssurveyforms/

In any case, there seems to be plenty of information to roughly assess the differences between mean and median, if you want more detail from the CSO maybe you should do a FOI request.

Benedict · 06-03-2021 7:18pm

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're not seeing. Have you following the links?

Here are more specifics:

Distribution
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/

Annual Earnings
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/annualearnings/

I don't see many references to "full time workers" although I think the data is collected, see survey forms:

https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/earnings/earningshoursandemploymentcostssurveyforms/

In any case, there seems to be plenty of information to roughly assess the differences between mean and median, if you want more detail from the CSO maybe you should do a FOI request.

Thank you - but with respect, do you know what the median wage for a ftw is? And would you agree that if it is possible to calculate the average ftw wage, then there is sufficient data to calculate the median wage?

Lumen · 06-03-2021 7:22pm

Benedict wrote: »

Thank you - but with respect, do you know what the median wage for a ftw is? And would you agree that if it is possible to calculate the average ftw wage, then there is sufficient data to calculate the median wage?

DYOR. This is a discussion forum, not Quora.

Geuze · 06-03-2021 10:21pm

Lumen wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/earnings/earnings-faqs/

Analysis from 2018

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/

This is helpful, but note that it is a distribution of employments, not workers.

Some workers have two employments.

I know somebody with three employments.

06-03-2021 10:35pm

Benedict wrote: »

.......

There is a widespread perception that if you're earning say 40k, most ftw are getting more than you are when in fact statistically you're doing well.

.....!!

Statistically 40k gross is doing well?
What stat is that with respect to full time workers?

Benedict · 07-03-2021 9:04am

Lumen wrote: »

DYOR. This is a discussion forum, not Quora.

With respect, I just asked the question do you know what the median ftw wage is? (I don't know what DYOR means!)

PintOfView · 07-03-2021 2:11pm

Benedict wrote: »

Thank you - but with respect, do you know what the median wage for a ftw is? And would you agree that if it is possible to calculate the average ftw wage, then there is sufficient data to calculate the median wage?

Someone suggested way back that the CSO gets the total wage bill from businesses, plus their number of employees, but don't get a breakdown per employee.

If that is the case then the CSO would have sufficient data to calculate the mean, or average, wage (total paid to all ftw's in the country / total number of ftw's in the country).

However there wouldn't be enough data to calculate the median wage, for which you would have to sort every ftw in the country from lowest wage to highest, and then take the middle one!

So the question is, do the CSO have the annual wages paid to every ftw in the country, or just the total wage bill + number of employees?

If this question is not answerable from information online, could you not just ask the CSO directly?

Damien360 · 07-03-2021 2:15pm

Benedict wrote: »

With respect, I just asked the question do you know what the median ftw wage is? (I don't know what DYOR means!)

It means Do Your Own Research.

07-03-2021 2:23pm

From what I've seen the average wage right now is about €47,000 for a full time worker, median is roughly 20-25% less, so median wage for a full time worker is roughly €36,000 to €38,000.

I get this from reports I've read from Ireland and other countries in the EU and America. I haven't exact proof of this

I don't care what the actual number is but it's nice to have a general idea.

People on boards probably earn more than this in general and this skews their perspective. A lot of people in this country are only barely managing month to month.

Benedict · 07-03-2021 7:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

From what I've seen the average wage right now is about €47,000 for a full time worker, median is roughly 20-25% less, so median wage for a full time worker is roughly €36,000 to €38,000.

I get this from reports I've read from Ireland and other countries in the EU and America. I haven't exact proof of this I don't care what the actual number is but it's nice to have a general idea.

People on boards probably earn more than this in general and this skews their perspective. A lot of people in this country are only barely managing month to month.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree. I've quoted 2 economists on this thread and they would tend to concur - one reckoned about 64% of ftw were earning less than the touted 49k - the other said circa 25% under 49k might be accurate.

It's so unfair for those in government to be pretending that 49k is the norm. I saw an ad recently for jobs to staff a new restaurant. There was everything from the kitchen porter right up through the different grades of chef and the only job above what Leo said "average people" were earning was the executive chef. (He was offered e20 pw above "average person")

It's so insulting to those who are earning typical wages for full time hours.

07-03-2021 7:28pm

Benedict wrote: »

..............

It's so unfair for those in government to be pretending that 49k is the norm. .............

Iirc they said it was the average?

If..

Benedict wrote: »

the other said circa 25% under 49k might be accurate.

...... that's true for the median........... you reckon 40k gross is doing well?

Augeo wrote: »

Statistically 40k gross is doing well?
What stat is that with respect to full time workers?

Benedict · 08-03-2021 9:11am

Augeo wrote: »

Iirc they said it was the average?

If........ that's true for the median........... you reckon 40k gross is doing well?

2 questions for you - do you honestly think that when Leo looks at the camera and announces that the average full time wage is now 49k and that is what the "average person" can expect to earn - do you think he is trying to give the impression that 49k is the typical wage for a full time worker?

And can you imagine him adding "by the way, most ftw don't earn anything like 49k" (which would be the truth)?

Average V Median wage Ireland?

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