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Average V Median wage Ireland?

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Comments

  • #2


    So what's the point here? Rich people are rich and need to be taxed more? Maybe the government shouldn't be so wasteful with our money.

    Flat tax across the board will get rid of a lot of bureaucracy. It could be set at a level that would bring in exactly the same amount of revenue and everyone would be better off. (as per Milton Friedman)

    We also need a better way of collecting tax from the self employed. So many openly admit being tax frauds. It's a perk of the job.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Of course no matter what you earn there will be those earning more and one accepts that. But the phrase "below average" has deep resonance for people and according to what we hear from politicians (check it for yourself), you're "below average" if you're earning, let's say, 40k.


    In fact, if you're earning 40k, you're earning more than most ftw in the country! But that's not what we're being told.


    It's a clear case of mis-information.

    In his Journal article (already quoted) O'Rourke reckons that 64% of ftw earn less than the average - but not less than the median.
    It categorically is not misinformation. The use of the word "average" can apply to mean, median or mode. People conflate Average with Median but it's actually used as mean.


    It's general poor comprehension, not misinformation, that is the cause of the problem.


  • #2


    So what's the point here? Rich people are rich and need to be taxed more? Maybe the government shouldn't be so wasteful with our money.

    Flat tax across the board will get rid of a lot of bureaucracy. It could be set at a level that would bring in exactly the same amount of revenue and everyone would be better off. (as per Milton Friedman)

    We also need a better way of collecting tax from the self employed. So many openly admit being tax frauds. It's a perk of the job.
    This would be brilliant.


  • #2


    So what's the point here? Rich people are rich and need to be taxed more? Maybe the government shouldn't be so wasteful with our money.

    Flat tax across the board will get rid of a lot of bureaucracy. It could be set at a level that would bring in exactly the same amount of revenue and everyone would be better off. (as per Milton Friedman)

    We also need a better way of collecting tax from the self employed. So many openly admit being tax frauds. It's a perk of the job.


    Well, the point could be made that if the message is pedalled that the streets are paved with gold - when in fact only a few streets are paved with gold - then it can lead to growing dissatisfaction and unrest. How many people bought apartments in Bulgaria in 2006 and wouldn't have if they'd known the truth?


    And the truth is that the public perception of income levels is inflated.


    Have a look at payscale.com and you'll see that the median wage for a solicitor is barely above what most people regard as typical workers' wage.


    Most software engineers are well below average in terms of income.


  • #2
    ELM327 wrote: »
    This would be brilliant.

    If a flat tax across the board was implemented it would have to be accompanied with a tax credit so folk on €20k/annum pay next to no PAYE.
    Otherwise low income folk would require some sort of SW payment or the minimum wage would need to be increased.

    Will never happen, progressive tax is here to stay, undoubtedly.


  • #2


    Augeo wrote: »
    If a flat tax across the board was implemented it would have to be accompanied with a tax credit so folk on €20k/annum pay next to no PAYE.
    Otherwise low income folk would require some sort of SW payment or the minimum wage would need to be increased.

    Will never happen, progressive tax is here to stay, undoubtedly.

    Negative income tax is the solution for low earners.

    I know it won't - government don't want to give up control of our money.



  • #2


    Augeo wrote: »
    If a flat tax across the board was implemented it would have to be accompanied with a tax credit so folk on €20k/annum pay next to no PAYE.
    Otherwise low income folk would require some sort of SW payment or the minimum wage would need to be increased.

    Will never happen, progressive tax is here to stay, undoubtedly.


    Flat tax with a small tax credit.


    How I'd do it is just remove PAYE and PRSI, and expand USC.


  • #2


    Average median salaries Ireland: (Courtesy of "payscale.com - 2021 figures)

    Project Architect 43k
    Solicitor 49k
    Teacher 33k
    Hotel Manager 36k

    These are professional jobs? And the typical wage is 49k right?????


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Average median salaries Ireland: (Courtesy of "payscale.com - 2021 figures)

    Project Architect 43k
    Solicitor 49k
    Teacher 33k
    Hotel Manager 36k

    These are professional jobs? And the typical wage is 49k right?????

    what is an average median :confused:


  • #2


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Flat tax with a small tax credit.


    How I'd do it is just remove PAYE and PRSI, and expand USC.

    USC is very "progressive"


  • #2


    Cyrus wrote: »
    what is an average median :confused:


    Apologies - I should have just said "median". So No 369 should read just "median".


    (It's worth mentioning that the terms "average median" and "average mean" are used sometimes but I agree that just plain median and mean or average are less confusing)


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Average median salaries Ireland: (Courtesy of "payscale.com - 2021 figures)

    Project Architect 43k
    Solicitor 49k
    Teacher 33k
    Hotel Manager 36k

    These are professional jobs? And the typical wage is 49k right?????

    That is nonsense

    https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0060_2020.pdf


    No full-time teacher is on a salary of less than 37k, so the median can't be below that.


  • #2


    blanch152 wrote: »
    That is nonsense

    https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0060_2020.pdf


    No full-time teacher is on a salary of less than 37k, so the median can't be below that.

    Maybe people who submit their wage data to payscale are unhappy or inexperienced?


  • #2
    blanch152 wrote: »
    That is nonsense
    .........

    No full-time teacher is on a salary of less than 37k, so the median can't be below that.

    Benedict includes part time and temp workers when it suits him.
    I'd not class a hotel manager as a professional job tbh but that's off topic.


  • #2


    Cyrus wrote: »
    what is an average median :confused:

    It does make sense that someone who conflates these terms themselves would also struggle to understand the difference when a politician uses these words.


  • #2


    USC is very "progressive"
    USC is absolutely progressive, the more you earn the more you pay.
    It's nearly flat rate.


    Percentage is progressive. The current system is punitive if you bother to get off your hole and work.


  • #2
    ELM327 wrote: »
    ............
    It's nearly flat rate.............

    Standard rates and thresholds of USC for 2021
    2021 Rate
    First €12,012 0.5%
    Next €8,675 2%
    Next €49,357 4.5%
    Balance 8%

    It's far from flat rate if you look at the numbers.


  • #2


    Yes and it has enough "progression" in the lower rates to satisfy the RBBs of this world.
    But you pay *something* on every cent you earn.


  • #2


    Russian went to a flat rate and their tax take increased.


  • #2


    Whenever I see anyone, in any country, advocate for a flat tax I assume that they are a high earner who wants to pay less tax. Not that people shouldn't lobby for their own interests - just that it's fairly obvious that, ultimately, their requests aren't coming from a place of wanting the best for everyone.


  • #2


    hots wrote: »
    It does make sense that someone who conflates these terms themselves would also struggle to understand the difference when a politician uses these words.


    To be fair, I corrected my mistake.


    But okay, do you have a list of average-type jobs where the median is 49k? I mean basic pay (forget overtime, investments etc.)?


    So let's hear it!

    Who's up for the challenge?


  • #2


    Whenever I see anyone, in any country, advocate for a flat tax I assume that they are a high earner who wants to pay less tax. Not that people shouldn't lobby for their own interests - just that it's fairly obvious that, ultimately, their requests aren't coming from a place of wanting the best for everyone.
    This is the natural assumption to make and it is true


    But I wanted a reorged tax band even 10 years ago when I was earning 26k


  • #2


    Whenever I see anyone, in any country, advocate for a flat tax I assume that they are a high earner who wants to pay less tax. Not that people shouldn't lobby for their own interests - just that it's fairly obvious that, ultimately, their requests aren't coming from a place of wanting the best for everyone.

    When Friedman analysed things in the US he realised that the rate of flat tax needed to pull in the same level of revenue was about 15%.

    The way it is set up now the poor pay some, the middle class pay a lot and the very rich use tax loopholes and right offs to pay very little.

    I wonder what the flat rate we'd need here would be to get the same revenue? I wonder if it is less than 20%?


  • #2


    When Friedman analysed things in the US he realised that the rate of flat tax needed to pull in the same level of revenue was about 15%.

    The way it is set up now the poor pay some, the middle class pay a lot and the very rich use tax loopholes and right offs to pay very little.

    I wonder what the flat rate we'd need here would be to get the same revenue? I wonder if it is less than 20%?

    If the very wealthy are using their resources to avoid paying tax under a progressive tax system, I don't see how switching to a flat tax is going to change that.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    To be fair, I corrected my mistake.


    But okay, do you have a list of average-type jobs where the median is 49k? I mean basic pay (forget overtime, investments etc.)?


    So let's hear it!

    Who's up for the challenge?

    You're the only one who thinks the median is 49k.


  • #2


    If the very wealthy are using their resources to avoid paying tax under a progressive tax system, I don't see how switching to a flat tax is going to change that.

    You also remove all tax loopholes.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Average median salaries Ireland: (Courtesy of "payscale.com - 2021 figures)

    Project Architect 43k
    Solicitor 49k
    Teacher 33k
    Hotel Manager 36k

    These are professional jobs? And the typical wage is 49k right?????

    There is no such phrase as "average median".

    Why somebody would use a .com website is beyond me.

    Use the CSO!!!!

    Teachers start on 34k approx, that is the start of their scale, not the average.

    Two mins looking up www.asti.ie or www.tui.ie will tell you that.

    There are sol on Boards on 70k by age 30.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    To be fair, I corrected my mistake.


    But okay, do you have a list of average-type jobs where the median is 49k? I mean basic pay (forget overtime, investments etc.)?


    The mean annual earnings in Ireland is 49k, for FTW.

    Mean, mean, mean, not the median.

    The mean is pulled up by the high earning outliers.

    This has been stated over and over.

    Also the 49k includes all earnings: overtime, bonuses, any irregular earnings.

    The 49k is not "mean basic pay".


  • #2


    When Friedman analysed things in the US he realised that the rate of flat tax needed to pull in the same level of revenue was about 15%.

    The way it is set up now the poor pay some, the middle class pay a lot and the very rich use tax loopholes and right offs to pay very little.

    I wonder what the flat rate we'd need here would be to get the same revenue? I wonder if it is less than 20%?

    An interesting question, which I suspect can be answered.

    Give me 5 mins.


    2018 total gross income = 106 bn

    https://revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/income-distributors/income-tax-calculation.pdf

    105,491m

    Net tax due = 16,589, so the effective rate on gross income is currently 15.7%


  • #2


    2018 USC revenue = 3197 + 541 = 3738m

    Tax + USC 2018 = 20,327m

    Flat tax to replace income tax and USC = 20,327 / 105,491 = 19.27%


    Do my calculations look okay?


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