Average V Median wage Ireland?

Benedict

I keep seeing from Govt. figures that the "average" wage in 2020 was approx Euro 49,500 pa. and the average hourly rate is E24.50.

To my mind this is nonsense - just look up "Jobs.ie" and you will see that even 40k pa means you have to have lots of experience & qualification.


The MEDIAN wage is the one to look at - but I can't find it. Does anyone have stats on what is the median wage in Ireland (2020)?

HillCloudHop

How is the average wage calculation nonsense? Of course the median wage is going to be lower.

zell12

CSO - the median of annual earnings in 2018 was €36,095.
loads more stats on sectoral median incomes there especially Table 8.15 Median annual earnings by county and sex

TimeToShine

The average would include all of the outliers (>200k earners) which would skew numbers somewhat.

Benedict

HillCloudHop wrote: »

How is the average wage calculation nonsense? Of course the median wage is going to be lower.

What I meant was that by using the average instead of the median, politicians give the impression most people are doing better than they are because people believe that average means most and politicians know that.

The figure include the very high earners and tend to exclude the lower earners because those working fewer than 30 hours a week tend to be discounted.

The politicians proudly trot out statements suggesting that most workers earn nearly 50k pa - in truth, the vast majority of workers earn nothing like that figure.

The diagram supplied by Zell12 looks most interesting but I note that the site shows that those working fewer than 50 weeks per year are excluded. So again, this fact must skew the figures.

Again, if you want to see what people are earning, look up job.ie - and read the ads in the papers.

And you're in for a shock!

Larbre34

Benedict wrote: »

Again, if you want to see what people are earning, look up job.ie - and read the ads in the papers.

If that's what you really believe, that the particulars of jobs employers can't quickly fill, are an accurate portrayal of employment and salaries in Ireland, then I don't know where to begin with explaining how stupid your outlook is.

Do you have any concept of the number of jobs and sectors that never get near being advertised and the salaries that accompany them?

Good lord.

Eric Cartman

TimeToShine wrote: »

The average would include all of the outliers (>200k earners) which would skew numbers somewhat.

Its a weird skew as many company directors, sole traders and people who would have access to those income levels often skew off with tax avoidance measures. I know many who would in theory have 200k + salaries but on the P60 it would show them having earned 60-75k because the rest is dumped elsewhere into investments, offshore accounts, shell companies, pension funds, company cars etc...

Eric Cartman

Benedict wrote: »

What I meant was that by using the average instead of the median, politicians give the impression most people are doing better than they are because people believe that average means most and politicians know that.

The figure include the very high earners and tend to exclude the lower earners because those working fewer than 30 hours a week tend to be discounted.

The politicians proudly trot out statements suggesting that most workers earn nearly 50k pa - in truth, the vast majority of workers earn nothing like that figure.

The diagram supplied by Zell12 looks most interesting but I note that the site shows that those working fewer than 50 weeks per year are excluded. So again, this fact must skew the figures.

Again, if you want to see what people are earning, look up job.ie - and read the ads in the papers.

And you're in for a shock!

This I think needs to be stated a lot more, there has been a huge race to the bottom in a lot of jobs especially as we have a lot of very educated friends coming in from across the EU.

project manager used to be a pretty much solid 60-75k job, now starting in the 40-45 bracket.
Java developers used to start on 50, now its 30k
Product manager for a multinational - used to be 90-100 handy enough, now you'd earn 50-70

We have a growing gap now between people who entered the workforce 10-15 years ago and those entering it today. If you've done a decade in your sector what you're on now, the guy behind you in 10 year time won't be on anywhere near that.

quokula

Benedict wrote: »

I keep seeing from Govt. figures that the "average" wage in 2020 was approx Euro 49,500 pa. and the average hourly rate is E24.50.

To my mind this is nonsense - just look up "Jobs.ie" and you will see that even 40k pa means you have to have lots of experience & qualification.


The MEDIAN wage is the one to look at - but I can't find it. Does anyone have stats on what is the median wage in Ireland (2020)?

But wouldn't the average worker have experience & qualifications?

If the workforce is aged approx 18-65, most people 30 and up would be pretty experienced in their field, while of those under that age, around half will have university qualifications and many more will have apprenticeships and other qualifications.

The average worker isn't an inexperienced unqualified school leaver who spends their days looking for positions that require no qualifications yet are still struggling enough to be filled that they are sitting on jobs.ie

With that said, median is a better measurement than mean for stats like this. But I doubt it's as wildly different as you're assuming.

Buddy Bubs

What are the quartiles does anyone know?

Could be a better picture than picking 1 figure, be it mean or median.

What figure would put you at 75th percentile, I.e. top quarter of earners.

What figure would put you at 25th percentile, I.e. bottom 25%


My guess is 60k will put you in top quarter and 25k will put you in bottom quarter.

Edit: I'm talking about full time jobs here.

Eric Cartman

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

What are the quartiles does anyone know?

Could be a better picture than picking 1 figure, be it mean or median.

What figure would put you at 75th percentile, I.e. top quarter of earners.

What figure would put you at 25th percentile, I.e. bottom 25%


My guess is 60k will put you in top quarter and 25k will put you in bottom quarter.

Edit: I'm talking about full time jobs here.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-gpii/geographicalprofilesofincomeinireland2016/incomeinireland/

62% of households make less than 60k
14.1% of the country has a household income of over 100k
1.9% of the country has a household income of over 200k
25.7% of households on 20-40k a year which is the highest bracket.
58% of the country earns 20k-80k a year.

HillCloudHop

HillCloudHop wrote: »

How is the average wage calculation nonsense?.

There was the time bill gates goes into a pub...

Laura2021

Eric Cartman wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-gpii/geographicalprofilesofincomeinireland2016/incomeinireland/

62% of households make less than 60k
14.1% of the country has a household income of over 100k
1.9% of the country has a household income of over 200k
25.7% of households on 20-40k a year which is the highest bracket.
58% of the country earns 20k-80k a year.

Is this before or after tax ?

Sheep Shagger

Laura2021 wrote: »

Is this before or after tax ?

I assume its gross.

Based on the salaries that some people bandy around on boards where people in their late 20s early 30s with a few years experience in their field are already on 50 or 60k this doesn't tie back?

Cyrus

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

I assume its gross.

Based on the salaries that some people bandy around on boards where people in their late 20s early 30s with a few years experience in their field are already on 50 or 60k this doesn't tie back?

Maybe board’s members aren’t representative of society as a whole

McCrack

Laura2021 wrote: »

Is this before or after tax ?

Open the link

crossman47

Cyrus wrote: »

Maybe board’s members aren’t representative of society as a whole

Never a truer word said.

Buddy Bubs

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

I assume its gross.

Based on the salaries that some people bandy around on boards where people in their late 20s early 30s with a few years experience in their field are already on 50 or 60k this doesn't tie back?

People on boards can say anything they want, may or may not be true. Don't know why but people using anonymous accounts inflate their wages here all the time.

CrazyFather1

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

I assume its gross.

Based on the salaries that some people bandy around on boards where people in their late 20s early 30s with a few years experience in their field are already on 50 or 60k this doesn't tie back?

A lot of people I see on boards can post 24 x 7 365 days a year non stop. Then trying to tell someone they are on 50-60k no problem doesn't really add up.
Do we really think companies hire people to sit on boards posting all day?
The "Im self employed" is also a favourite I see now. I have a few mates who are self employed and not a single one use boards.

Bring to mind the saying
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Eric Cartman

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

A lot of people I see on boards can post 24 x 7 365 days a year non stop. Then trying to tell someone they are on 50-60k no problem doesn't really add up.
Do we really think companies hire people to sit on boards posting all day?
The "Im self employed" is also a favourite I see now. I have a few mates who are self employed and not a single one use boards.

Bring to mind the saying
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

A lot of people working finance or tech would be at a computer all day and would have the time to throw in a post or 3, we definitely over represent here in those working tech, finance, academia and then theres also the cohort of students/unemployed who have endless time.

I'd never believe half the bluster but id say excluding the unemployed people who probably aren't bragging in those threads, the average salary of a boards user is probably a smidgen above the median.

Geuze

Benedict wrote: »

I keep seeing from Govt. figures that the "average" wage in 2020 was approx Euro 49,500 pa. and the average hourly rate is E24.50.

The MEDIAN wage is the one to look at - but I can't find it. Does anyone have stats on what is the median wage in Ireland (2020)?

I know a bit about this.

In their main report, the CSO publish mean earnings, see here:

Earnings and Labour Costs series

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/earningsandlabourcosts/




Now, to find median earnings is more difficult.

If you look here:

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/

...and then choose Structural Earnings, you arrive here:

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/structuralearnings/

As an aside, what do they mean by structural earnings?

Under this heading, you will find:

Earnings Analysis using Administrative Data Sources 2018 series

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/



Now, I have not dug deep enough to check the differences between the two series.

Geuze

PLEASE NOTE: Eurostat publish median earnings for Ireland, in the SES survey, but it is only every four years.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/earn_ses_annual/default/table?lang=en

Latest data is 2014!!!


Median earnings for FT workers in 2014 was 47,959

Note, for full-timers.

Geuze

Laura2021 wrote: »

Is this before or after tax ?

Wages are always quoted gross.

Geuze

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

What are the quartiles does anyone know?

Could be a better picture than picking 1 figure, be it mean or median.

What figure would put you at 75th percentile, I.e. top quarter of earners.

What figure would put you at 25th percentile, I.e. bottom 25%

There is a distribution of earnings in here:

Earnings Analysis using Administrative Data Sources 2018

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/


See here:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/

Charles Babbage

The average person has 20 years experience, as you work for 40 years or so.#

Geuze

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

What are the quartiles does anyone know?

Could be a better picture than picking 1 figure, be it mean or median.

What figure would put you at 75th percentile, I.e. top quarter of earners.

What figure would put you at 25th percentile, I.e. bottom 25%

2018 data

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/

80th percentile = 1,034 pw = 53,768

90th percentile = 1,374 pw = 71,448

jimmycrackcorm

Eric Cartman wrote:

project manager used to be a pretty much solid 60-75k job, now starting in the 40-45 bracket. Java developers used to start on 50, now its 30k Product manager for a multinational - used to be 90-100 handy enough, now you'd earn 50-70

That's total rubbish. You've no sources to back up.
There's no way someone came out of college and started as a Java developer on 50k.

Source: me recruiting.

Similarly, product managers have been starting in that range for a long time and can reach higher, but it hasn't dropped.

Brian?

Benedict wrote: »

What I meant was that by using the average instead of the median, politicians give the impression most people are doing better than they are because people believe that average means most and politicians know that.

The figure include the very high earners and tend to exclude the lower earners because those working fewer than 30 hours a week tend to be discounted.

The politicians proudly trot out statements suggesting that most workers earn nearly 50k pa - in truth, the vast majority of workers earn nothing like that figure.

The diagram supplied by Zell12 looks most interesting but I note that the site shows that those working fewer than 50 weeks per year are excluded. So again, this fact must skew the figures.

Again, if you want to see what people are earning, look up job.ie - and read the ads in the papers.

And you're in for a shock!

I rarely see companies advertising salaries, except for pretty crappy jobs.

Brian?

Eric Cartman wrote: »

This I think needs to be stated a lot more, there has been a huge race to the bottom in a lot of jobs especially as we have a lot of very educated friends coming in from across the EU.

project manager used to be a pretty much solid 60-75k job, now starting in the 40-45 bracket.
Java developers used to start on 50, now its 30k
Product manager for a multinational - used to be 90-100 handy enough, now you'd earn 50-70

We have a growing gap now between people who entered the workforce 10-15 years ago and those entering it today. If you've done a decade in your sector what you're on now, the guy behind you in 10 year time won't be on anywhere near that.

I have no idea where you’re getting your earning figures. They’re completely wrong. Wages have gone up in all of those jobs.

Peregrinus

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

I assume its gross.

Based on the salaries that some people bandy around on boards where people in their late 20s early 30s with a few years experience in their field are already on 50 or 60k this doesn't tie back?

Cyrus wrote: »

Maybe board’s members aren’t representative of society as a whole

And boardies who bandy around their salaries may not be representative even of boardies as a whole.

Anecodotal evidence isn't a lot of use here. The OP cites salaries offered on jobs.ie but, of course, they are no use for identifying average or mean earnings, since what you see on recruitment websites is starting salaries/entry-level salaries. But must people expect salary progression in their careers, and most workers are not new hires. So most people, and the average person, doing a particular job, earn more than the salary offered for that job in a recrutiment ad.

The CSO figures on household income are probably the most robust data you're going to get on actual standards of living. But of course they include all income, not just earnings — pensioner households and households dependent on other benefits will bring the average down. And, if your interest in in comparing Ireland with other countries, then of course you need household income data for the other countries also.

Geuze

Peregrinus wrote: »

The CSO figures on household income are probably the most robust data you're going to get on actual standards of living. But of course they include all income, not just earnings — pensioner households and households dependent on other benefits will bring the average down. And, if your interest in in comparing Ireland with other countries, then of course you need household income data for the other countries also.

The SILC is the source for EU-wide income data.

Benedict

There has been much controversy lately about mortgage lenders who don't want to lend to individuals or couples jointly earning less than 100k pa. We've seen politicians showing horror at this and suggesting that this figure will mean that vast numbers of even two-earner households will not be eligible for a mortgage. Yet if we are to believe the spin, the "average" working couple would be within a couple of quid of this.

The powers-that-be prefer "average" to "median" because it gives the impression that we're all doing really well. But even the "median" reports would need to be read with care. Geuze has made a helpful contribution to this thread - but even in his case I note that the "median" figures (nothing like 49/50k) are based on looking at 7,700 examples from several million workers! (A drop in the ocean.)

Everyone spots the new top-of-the-range Merc whizzing past - but not the trail of 10 year old Ford Fiestas behind it!

On "How to be good with money" RTE last week, I head Eoin McGee describe a legal secretary's salary of 40k as "good". According to the spin, it's not "good".

CrazyFather1

Brian? wrote: »

I have no idea where you’re getting your earning figures. They’re completely wrong. Wages have gone up in all of those jobs.

Project Managers have gone down significantly. Mostly because the day rate you can sell a PM at is now gone way down, unless you are a hugely experienced one.

Anything Cyber Security related is crazy at the moment

Benedict

Aidan Regan, a political economist and associate professor in UCD’s School of Politics and International Relations, has pointed out that “If there are 40 people in a bar and a billionaire walks in, everyone, on average becomes a millionaire”.

CSO figures show that the "average full time worker" earns almost 49k per annum and this figure has been widely used to give the impression that 49k is the norm and we're all in clover.

If you're struggling and Bill Gates moves onto your road, then all of a sudden if you're going by averages, you're not struggling, you're now rich.

If you're going by median figures, you're still struggling.

So which is reality and which is cloud cuckoo land?

TylerRyan28

Geuze wrote: »

2018 data

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/



So if making €800 a week or more you are doing good ?

crossman47

TylerRyan28 wrote: »

Geuze wrote: »

2018 data

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/



So if making €800 a week or more you are doing good ?

Yes. Do you doubt that? if you are earning more than 600 a week, you are in the upper half of the distribution.

Benedict

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

You think you are smarter than CSO and they are not aware of difference between mean and median?


I'm not sure where you saw that I said I was smarter than the CSO - I don't think any such thing. It's the manner in which statistics are used which I find disturbing - especially how the confusion surrounding "median" and "average" is exploited.


I would like to know how many Irish adults over 18 (apart from full time students) are earning circa E24.50 for every hour they work. I would like to know how many over 18's (apart from full time students) are earning 49k pa.


That figure would throw a very different light on how ordinary people are living.

Just remember, if you had a town in Ireland with 100 adults, 90 were unemployed and the other 10 were earning 100k pa. Then the average earning would be 100k pa. The impression would be that this town is really prosperous whereas in fact it is on its knees.

Geuze

Benedict wrote: »

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Just remember, if you had a town in Ireland with 100 adults, 90 were unemployed and the other 10 were earning 100k pa. Then the average earning would be 100k pa. The impression would be that this town is really prosperous whereas in fact it is on its knees.

Yes, incomes are not the same as earnings.

The CSO produce data on:

(1) mean earnings
(2) median earnings - although I'm still not 100% clear on this

(3) household incomes, published in the SILC, both mean and median, both gross and disposable

timmyntc

zell12 wrote: »

CSO - the median of annual earnings in 2018 was €36,095.
loads more stats on sectoral median incomes there especially Table 8.15 Median annual earnings by county and sex

27.1% of households have no earned income

How many of those households are pensioners and how many are not I wonder.

Geuze

Benedict wrote: »

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I would like to know how many Irish adults over 18 (apart from full time students) are earning circa E24.50 for every hour they work. I would like to know how many over 18's (apart from full time students) are earning 49k pa.

That figure would throw a very different light on how ordinary people are living.

Tricky to get this data.

I will try the Eurostat SES 2014 and 2018.

Ok, I think I have what you want.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/labour-market/earnings/database



Choose earn_ses_hourly, or play around with the Data Explorer.

Geuze

Eurostat SES 2014 and 2018.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/labour-market/earnings/database

Choose earn_ses_hourly, or play around with the Data Explorer.


Ok, here we go:


FT workers, median earnings in 2018 = 18.39 per hour

NB this is in: industry, construction and services (except public administration, defense, compulsory social security)


That is odd, median earnings ph have fallen since 2014..........????


Something is up........

Geuze

Eurostat SES 2014 and 2018.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/labour-market/earnings/database

Choose earn_ses_hourly, or play around with the Data Explorer.


FT workers 2018

median earnings in 2018 = 18.39 per hour
9th decile = 42.16 per hour

NB this is in: industry, construction and services (except public administration, defense, compulsory social security)

Benedict

Just to take an example, I quote from Irish Times 26 June 2020 (article by Eoin Burke-Kennedy)

"The average full-time salary in the Republic is now nearly €49,000, according to the Central Statistics Office (CSO)"

That's 942e per week gross - almost 25e per hour for a 38 hour week. Those who earn nothing (presumably pensioners, unemployed etc.) are excluded from this statistic and why should they be excluded?

So if you to calculate an income figure for every able bodied adult over 18 - including those with zero income - what would that figure look like? What would that "average" and "median" be do you think?

So I would love to hear that figure?

Certainly not 49k per annum!

Geuze

Benedict wrote: »

Just to take an example, I quote from Irish Times 26 June 2020 (article by Eoin Burke-Kennedy)

"The average full-time salary in the Republic is now nearly €49,000, according to the Central Statistics Office (CSO)"

That's 942e per week gross - almost 25e per hour for a 38 hour week. Those who earn nothing (presumably pensioners, unemployed etc.) are excluded from this statistic and why should they be excluded?

So if you to calculate an income figure for every able bodied adult over 18 - including those with zero income - what would that figure look like? What would that "average" and "median" be do you think?

So I would love to hear that figure?

Certainly not 49k per annum!

Be careful.

That 49k figure is earnings, not income.

Also, salary is not a helpful term.

A worker's base salary can be very different than their earnings.

Geuze

Benedict wrote: »

"The average full-time salary in the Republic is now nearly €49,000, according to the Central Statistics Office (CSO)"

That's 942e per week gross - almost 25e per hour for a 38 hour week. Those who earn nothing (presumably pensioners, unemployed etc.) are excluded from this statistic and why should they be excluded?

So if you to calculate an income figure for every able bodied adult over 18 - including those with zero income - what would that figure look like? What would that "average" and "median" be do you think?

So I would love to hear that figure?

Certainly not 49k per annum!

What is it exactly that you want?

Earnings or income data?

I can provide both.

It seems you want income data, so off we go to the SILC.

Hold on a minute.

Geuze

This is INCOMES data, not earnings.

SILC 2019

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/


PLEASE NOTE - it is on a HOUSEHOLD basis at first, and then the equivalised individual figure is calculated.

WARNING - please check what is meant by equivalised.




2019 household incomes

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/income/

MEAN

gross, this is market earned income plus social benefits, but is before tax = 70,092

disposable, this is after tax = 53,118


MEDIAN

gross, this is market earned income plus social benefits, but is before tax = 51,217

disposable, this is after tax = 43,552

TylerRyan28

Geuze wrote: »

This is INCOMES data, not earnings.

SILC 2019

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/


PLEASE NOTE - it is on a HOUSEHOLD basis at first, and then the equivalised individual figure is calculated.

WARNING - please check what is meant by equivalised.




2019 household incomes

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/income/
before tax = 70,092
after tax = 53,118


before tax = 51,217
after tax = 43,552

€70,092
After tax - 47,133
Monthly - 3,928


€51,217
After tax - 37,414
Monthly - 3,118

crossman47

Benedict wrote: »

"The average full-time salary in the Republic is now nearly €49,000, according to the Central Statistics Office (CSO)"

That's 942e per week gross - almost 25e per hour for a 38 hour week. Those who earn nothing (presumably pensioners, unemployed etc.) are excluded from this statistic and why should they be excluded?

!

Of course they should be excluded. its an earnings figure so why would you add those with no earnings?

blanch152

Benedict wrote: »

Again, if you want to see what people are earning, look up job.ie - and read the ads in the papers.

And you're in for a shock!

That is completely misleading.

Most companies only advertise for entry-level positions. They tend to promote from within for the higher-level and higher-earning positions.

As a result, job ads will significantly underestimate average and median earnings by as much as the same again.

Geuze

TylerRyan28 wrote: »

€70,092
After tax - 47,133
Monthly - 3,928


€51,217
After tax - 37,414
Monthly - 3,118

Be careful, the SILC data above is on a HOUSEHOLD basis, there could be two or three earners in many households, so I would be careful about applying income tax to the gross figures.


Note that disposable figures are also provided.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

This is INCOMES data, not earnings.

SILC 2019

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/


PLEASE NOTE - it is on a HOUSEHOLD basis at first, and then the equivalised individual figure is calculated.

WARNING - please check what is meant by equivalised.


2019 household incomes

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/income/


MEDIAN

gross, this is market earned income plus social benefits, but is before tax = 51,217

disposable, this is after tax = 43,552

So we know that the middle household has 840 per week disposable income.

One figure that interested me was digging deeper, by household type.

See table 2.3c

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/income/


For a household with 2 adults and 1-3 kids under 18, the median disposable income is 58,646 or 1,130 per week

There must be a lot of two earners in these households.