Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

John Doe1 · 04-03-2021 12:15am #1

I personally believe that the pioneers of Feminism have brought about fantastic change in the western world and brought women to an equal footing today. However, the modern variant just seems just so toxic and divisive for society.

There are so many myths propagated by it, the gender wage gap being the main one. if companies were paying their female employees less than men for the same job with the same experience they would be sued out the eyeballs every day. Not to mention, the fact that women choose different jobs(i.e lack of representation of women firefighters/bin men)

Modern Feminism also ignores the rights of women in Islamic countries or the disproportionate sexual assaults caused by Muslim immigrants because it doesn't fit nicely into their narrative. if they really cared about gender equality this would be cause number one rather than spending their time complaining about manspreading and pretending OnlyFans performers are feminist icons.

This Time article by Christina Hoff Sommers explains things pretty well

https://time.com/3222543/wage-pay-gap-myth-feminism/

But, I'd love to be proven wrong so..

Smee_Again · 04-03-2021 12:18am

Anything that promotes equality is good for society.

EmmetSpiceland · 04-03-2021 12:25am

John Doe1 wrote: »

However, the modern variant just seems just so toxic and divisive for society.

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

biko · 04-03-2021 12:27am

There is no position today in civilised countries that is not open to women. The suffragettes made it happen.

Potential-Monke · 04-03-2021 12:29am

I don't follow or understand these movements or political ideas (still don't know the difference between right and left, and frankly I couldn't give a damn). Treat everyone the same, don't be a cnut. Simples.

dotsman · 04-03-2021 1:08am

Smee_Again wrote: »

Anything that promotes equality is good for society.

Feminism isn't about promoting equality. The clue is in the name.

Op, to answer your question - no; modern feminism is a vile, hate-filled, almost religious-like view that causes tremendous harm to men, women and society as a whole.

But you are not allowed to proffer anything against it. Otherwise you are a misogynistic sexist pig.

Your Face · 04-03-2021 1:10am

Boobs

Ultrflat · 04-03-2021 1:12am

Your Face wrote: »

Boobs

In bra's or are they being burned in a heep out side some gentlemen's club?

04-03-2021 1:25am

Smee_Again wrote: »

Anything that promotes equality is good for society.

Sometimes you have to look under the bonnet a bit more though and see if there's an actual issue

Mr. CooL ICE · 04-03-2021 10:17am

I knew a woman once, but she died

Church on Tuesday · 04-03-2021 2:24pm

I have a lot of respect for the first wave of Feminism. Obviously there should be equality regardless of gender, background, color of skin, physical ability (within reason).

But the newer variants are simply vehicles for hate and quite damaging too.

the beer revolu · 04-03-2021 2:40pm

My only real issue is that many women today turn everything into a gender issue.
I see it here, where any negative experience with a man is labelled as misogyny.
Sometimes people are just cnuts, irrespective of their gender.

But polarisation of everything seems to be the way, now.

But, mostly I'm all for feminism.

Tombo2001 · 04-03-2021 2:45pm

John Doe1 wrote: »

I personally believe that the pioneers of Feminism have brought about fantastic change in the western world and brought women to an equal footing today. However, the modern variant just seems just so toxic and divisive for society.

There are so many myths propagated by it, the gender wage gap being the main one. if companies were paying their female employees less than men for the same job with the same experience they would be sued out the eyeballs every day. Not to mention, the fact that women choose different jobs(i.e lack of representation of women firefighters/bin men)

You are having a laugh there surely

ThewhiteJesus · 04-03-2021 2:50pm

Eoghan Mcdermott is a feminist, what does that tell you ?

Wibbs · 04-03-2021 2:51pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Anything that promotes equality is good for society.

It would be if it did.

Modern Feminism: Women are always agentless victims and it's always men's/the patriarchy's fault.

Even on the rare occasions where men are acknowledged as victims, it's because of the patriarchy, or "toxic masculinity", so it's still somehow their fault.

It's long passed by equality and is like so many isms and political positions of all stripes these days steeped in identity politics, the oppressed/oppressor narrative and prays in the church of the Eternal Victimhood, with plenty of mouthpieces looking to foster more division and gain attention and financially from it.

QV:

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

It doesn't stand up to much in the way of deeper scrutiny of many of its basic tenets, tenets that used to be the preserve of the fringes and extremes, but are now mainstream. It also pulls the move of conflating historical and indeed current elites with the average person on the street. EG "the number of male CEOs and billionaires DWARFS the number of womxn CEOs and billionaires!!!!" The number of billionaires fullstop is an absolutely tiny percentage of the world's population and is an empty comparison, but facts don't appeal to the acolytes and the dim of any identity politic.

Put it another way; among average everyday people, which gender is more likely to die younger, be killed at work, be physically assaulted, be homeless, be addicts, be more suicidal and carry that to its unfortunate end, be unemployed, have lower educational outcomes, fewer social and financial resources, be treated less favourably in law, including in the event of divorce? I'll give ye a hint, it's not women. The only metric where women figure higher in the stats is in sexual assault.

jimgoose · 04-03-2021 2:55pm

EmmetSpiceland · 04-03-2021 2:55pm

Men: the real victim.

It’s okay, I feel you. It’s not easy being a cis, whyte, heterosexual male aged 18-49 these days. Not easy at all. Cant even look at, let alone talk to, a woman.

SnazzyPig · 04-03-2021 2:56pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

That should just about fit on a T-shirt, made by a 10-year old girl in Bangladesh.

meeeeh · 04-03-2021 2:57pm

Feminism
Bin men
Gender gap
Islam
Porn

Topics that haven't been discussed at least for a month in the same post... I don't care if people complain about feminism but can we have less clichés. You are not the first one who thought of those arguments so if you intend to make them at least improve the quality. Instead we get the same argument that there is no pay gap because only men are collecting bins. As for Islam, there are people who will reply to 'Is it raining?' with 'yeah but it's raining in Muslim countries too.'

Leg End Reject · 04-03-2021 3:00pm

I'd agree with Wibbs. There was a time when feminism was relevant, but it's jumped the shark now.

I'm all for gender equality, but it should come from the honest starting point of acknowledging that there are differences between the 2 genders, and those differences influence behaviours, outlook and social interactions.

The last thing I would like to be described as is "masculine", appearance or behaviourwise. :eek:

keano_afc · 04-03-2021 3:07pm

I find the most ironic thing about "modern" feminism is that many of its proponents cant even define what a woman is without wanting to include biological males.

meeeeh · 04-03-2021 3:11pm

keano_afc wrote: »

I find the most ironic thing about "modern" feminism is that many of its proponents cant even define what a woman is without wanting to include biological males.

I was actually thinking to myself that op forgot to stick trans issues somewhere in the post.

Well it didn't take long...

Tell me how · 04-03-2021 3:21pm

Wibbs wrote: »

It would be if it did.

Modern Feminism: Women are always agentless victims and it's always men's/the patriarchy's fault.

Even on the rare occasions where men are acknowledged as victims, it's because of the patriarchy, or "toxic masculinity", so it's still somehow their fault.

It's long passed by equality and is like so many isms and political positions of all stripes these days steeped in identity politics, the oppressed/oppressor narrative and prays in the church of the Eternal Victimhood, with plenty of mouthpieces looking to foster more division and gain attention and financially from it.

QV:

It doesn't stand up to much in the way of deeper scrutiny of many of its basic tenets, tenets that used to be the preserve of the fringes and extremes, but are now mainstream. It also pulls the move of conflating historical and indeed current elites with the average person on the street. EG "the number of male CEOs and billionaires DWARFS the number of womxn CEOs and billionaires!!!!" The number of billionaires fullstop is an absolutely tiny percentage of the world's population and is an empty comparison, but facts don't appeal to the acolytes and the dim of any identity politic.

Put it another way; among average everyday people, which gender is more likely to die younger, be killed at work, be physically assaulted, be homeless, be addicts, be more suicidal and carry that to its unfortunate end, be unemployed, have lower educational outcomes, fewer social and financial resources, be treated less favourably in law, including in the event of divorce? I'll give ye a hint, it's not women. The only metric where women figure higher in the stats is in sexual assault.

Don't suppose you have a link for the first bit in bold?

As for the second bit, if this is the case, and I am not suggesting that it isn't so for any or all of them, there's a lot in there, why do we never see a focus on overcoming these issues on here, raising awareness about them, getting government organisations to act in relation to them, support groups being formed etc. Time and again (and my God has it been time and again on here lately) there are threads lambasting various 'liberal' activist ideals, feminism today being the latest to be targeted.

Say what you want about these liberals, feminists included, but one thing they have shown themselves to be capable of doing is activating and advocating and building support and ultimately seeing action being taken, slow and all as it can be. And almost exclusively to be met with derision and insults for doing so, and often to be dismissed with these claims that 'Oh but men have it way worse'. If they do, why not try and do something about it? Is it a fear of appearing on the 'Wokeism of the day thread' Or maybe being accused of being the lowest of the low, 'a Social justice warrior'.

And for anyone who comes in with cries of the MSM and how they would react to men trying to help themselves and each other, have a look at how one young female activist is treated, her mural didn't last 24 hours before it had a bucket of paint thrown over it and everyone from high profile media people to the President of the United States had a go at her for trying to raise awareness, and yet, she, and others like her persist and don't stop just because someone tells them they should.

If people aren't happy with how things are, why do some focus their efforts in complaining about other people who are advocating for improvement in one way or another rather than trying to change or help that thing which they feel is not ideal?
Answers on a postcard please.

FunLover18 · 04-03-2021 3:22pm

John Doe1 wrote: »

I personally believe that the pioneers of Feminism have brought about fantastic change in the western world and brought women to an equal footing today. However, the modern variant just seems just so toxic and divisive for society.

There are so many myths propagated by it, the gender wage gap being the main one. if companies were paying their female employees less than men for the same job with the same experience they would be sued out the eyeballs every day. Not to mention, the fact that women choose different jobs(i.e lack of representation of women firefighters/bin men)

Modern Feminism also ignores the rights of women in Islamic countries or the disproportionate sexual assaults caused by Muslim immigrants because it doesn't fit nicely into their narrative. if they really cared about gender equality this would be cause number one rather than spending their time complaining about manspreading and pretending OnlyFans performers are feminist icons.

This Time article by Christina Hoff Sommers explains things pretty well

https://time.com/3222543/wage-pay-gap-myth-feminism/

But, I'd love to be proven wrong so..

So your two examples of the toxicity and divisive nature of modern feminism are something that you don't believe in and something they're not even addressing?

04-03-2021 3:27pm

Women have all the same rights men do, plus:

Women have far more rights over their children than men do.
Women have far more health screening programmes aimed at them than men do (the cervical smear scandal notwithstanding) despite having a longer life expectancy.
Women have all sorts of positive discrimination hiring policies in place - a woman in STEM will have companies fighting to hire her over better qualified men.

So yeah feminism now is just about complaining and a power grab mainly.

Wibbs · 04-03-2021 4:07pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Men: the real victim.

It’s okay, I feel you. It’s not easy being a cis, whyte, heterosexual male aged 18-49 these days. Not easy at all. Cant even look at, let alone talk to, a woman.

Nope. Unlike what appears to be your first position and the first position of "feminism" I don't frame everything in victimhood. I'm merely pointing to the speciousness of modern "feminist" thought. Nor do I try to foster even more identity politic divisions by endlessly looking for more and more labels to slap on people like "cis" or "whyte" so we can play the oppressor/oppressed narrative to death.

Mister Vain · 04-03-2021 4:12pm

Modern feminism promotes a cliquey sisterhood mentality that is opposed to criticism. Today’s media feminists are only interested in talking about equality when it’s used to bargain a better deal for themselves. Too much of the debate in mainstream and social media around gender issues is dictated by a strain of feminism that views masculinity as inherently problematic.

Salvation Tambourine · 04-03-2021 4:14pm

Wibbs wrote: »

It would be if it did.
Put it another way; among average everyday people, which gender is more likely to die younger, be killed at work, be physically assaulted, be homeless, be addicts, be more suicidal and carry that to its unfortunate end, be unemployed, have lower educational outcomes, fewer social and financial resources, be treated less favourably in law, including in the event of divorce? I'll give ye a hint, it's not women. The only metric where women figure higher in the stats is in sexual assault.

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Men: the real victim.
It’s okay, I feel you. It’s not easy being a cis, whyte, heterosexual male aged 18-49 these days. Not easy at all. Cant even look at, let alone talk to, a woman.

If that a response to the above (that was the order of the comments for me) then wow.

Why do you spell the word "Whyte"?

FunLover18 · 04-03-2021 4:16pm

Mister Vain wrote: »

Modern feminism promotes a cliquey sisterhood mentality that is opposed to criticism. Today’s media feminists are only interested in talking about equality when it’s used to bargain a better deal for themselves. Too much of the debate in mainstream and social media around gender issues is dictated by a strain of feminism that views masculinity as inherently problematic.

I think this is a problem with most movements across the political spectrum. There's very little room for nuance or discussion these days, the extemists are used as a weapon to tarnish everyone by association.

Wibbs · 04-03-2021 4:25pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Don't suppose you have a link for the first bit in bold?

Any part of the modern "feminist" credo will suffice for example.

As for the second bit, if this is the case, and I am not suggesting that it isn't so for any or all of them, there's a lot in there, why do we never see a focus on overcoming these issues on here, raising awareness about them, getting government organisations to act in relation to them, support groups being formed etc. Time and again (and my God has it been time and again on here lately) there are threads lambasting various 'liberal' activist ideals, feminism today being the latest to be targeted.

I hate to break it to you, but I'm far more left of centre than right. Old stylee Liberal. Pick any "liberal" position you like and you'll find me on the side of it in the vast majority of cases. In every referendum save one(the birthright passports) I voted the "correct" way, including the first time I could vote the divorce referendum which didn't pass.

Where I take issue is the growth and digging in of identity politics and US college speak, of oppressed and oppressor and victim narratives, of ever increasing labels driven by market forces and fashion as much as actual politics. Twenty years ago I'd likely have said yep I'd be a feminist, because a) it wasn't nearly so daft or divisive in the mainstream and b) it was a societal Accepted Truth that I just went along with. As time went by and it became more and more ridiculous and whiny and the more I actually looked at the main tenets of that politic the more I smelled what you would smell if you followed a bovine of the male persuasion around a field for long enough.

PS the fact you didn't know or aren't sure about the second part you bolded says much about which squeaky wheel gets the most grease in western societies.

Say what you want about these liberals, feminists included, but one thing they have shown themselves to be capable of doing is activating and advocating and building support and ultimately seeing action being taken, slow and all as it can be. And almost exclusively to be met with derision and insults for doing so, and often to be dismissed with these claims that 'Oh but men have it way worse'. If they do, why not try and do something about it? Is it a fear of appearing on the 'Wokeism of the day thread' Or maybe being accused of being the lowest of the low, 'a Social justice warrior'.

For a start fighting fire with fire, or in feminism's case BS with BS means both parties end up on fire or covered in BS.

And for anyone who comes in with cries of the MSM and how they would react to men trying to help themselves and each other, have a look at how one young female activist is treated, her mural didn't last 24 hours before it had a bucket of paint thrown over it and everyone from high profile media people to the President of the United States had a go at her for trying to raise awareness, and yet, she, and others like her persist and don't stop just because someone tells them they should.

If people aren't happy with how things are, why do some focus their efforts in complaining about other people who are advocating for improvement in one way or another rather than trying to change or help that thing which they feel is not ideal?
Answers on a postcard please.

Feminism is the Accepted Truth in the vast majority of politics, thought and media in the West. Here in Ireland it's a cast iron given. You will not see any men's issue being publicly debated unless it is framed within "feminist" thought and the again the reasons will almost certainly be blamed on the patriarchy. You won't even hear measured critique of "feminism". There are no other voices. In order to be proactive it would butt up against that tide. It's doable, but most people men and women couldn't be arsed and just go along with it, leaving the field open to cranks on twitter.

Wibbs · 04-03-2021 4:28pm

FunLover18 wrote: »

I think this is a problem with most movements across the political spectrum. There's very little room for nuance or discussion these days, the extemists are used as a weapon to tarnish everyone by association.

I'd agree and go further and say the extreme positions across the spectrum become more and more the mainstream.

Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

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