Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

Vestiapx

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I don't think any men would agree with that policy. I am just pointing out how far we have come in a generation.

Two generations but yes. But that's the point we all have come a long way and should be proud of ourselves not accusing men of toxicity. Modern feminism is simply not fair kind to the decent men that occupy teh same space it does.

Look at the vandalism of Greta's mural, how is that a feminist issue ?? It's wasn't done by the patriarchy it was done by scumbags, scumbags that are statisticaly more likely to assault men than women.

Vestiapx

FunLover18 wrote: »

What the hell has this got to do with feminism?

It's the work life balance and the perceived gender earnng gap. It's a good example.

johnmck

I think it really has led women to believe they can have it all. The career, the sex in the city lifestyle, the Instagram beach photos with the tatoed surfer due in Bali, while spending 8 years finding herself upskilling to become a yoga teacher. Waiting for Clooney while posting photos on Tinder of Machu Pichu and that infamous swing, after too many weekends to remember riding the cock-carousel and then suddenly coming to an abrupt realisation around 35 /36, oh tiktok tik tok those eggs are almost all gone...

growleaves

nerd69 wrote: »

Ya that's pretty much the sum of it I think my wife had an Industry job earning a bit over twice her current wage but didn't like the stress of it so went teaching..she enjoys the time off with the family more and finds it much more rewarding. It would be far less likely for a man to do so

To answer the original question nothing wrong with feminism in theory but a lot of it these days seems more symptomatic of the greater issue whereby people try to find a way to make themselves a victim if anything.

In world-historical terms we are more rich and comfortable than almost everyone who has ever lived.

The invention of labour-saving devices like washing machines and electric irons has freed women from serious toil. The material equivalent in the ancient world would have been living as the wife of a rich patrician who owned slaves to perform manual labour.

As some posters have pointed out, the reason many women don't earn as much as men is because they have the luxury of deferring work to raise their own children and see them grow up.

We should feel gratitude and contentment. Instead we just get leftist poison.

kildare lad

FunLover18 wrote: »

What the hell has this got to do with feminism?

I just quoted the posters comment about why more men do higher paying jobs in companies and women end up as secretaries etc I was just trying to enlighten the poster from my own experience around people who've top positions in companies , it comes with lots of sacrifices be it , lack of social and family life etc

jam_mac_jam

Vestiapx wrote: »

Two generations but yes. But that's the point we all have come a long way and should be proud of ourselves not accusing men of toxicity. Modern feminism is simply not fair kind to the decent men that occupy teh same space it does.

Look at the vandalism of Greta's mural, how is that a feminist issue ?? It's wasn't done by the patriarchy it was done by scumbags, scumbags that are statisticaly more likely to assault men than women.

Well one generation. It's her daughter not her granddaughter.

FunLover18

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

That's not how it is used though. It is used as a way to show that sexism explains the gap when it is more complex then that. And is both as a result of society and also the choices made by women.

Many women want to take time off for their children for example. And they should have the right to do this if they wish.

But your career will likely suffer. I know I have made sacrifices in my career due to having a child. Such as doing less overtime or being less motivated to go for new jobs due to less security.

Why is it that women should suffer the professional consequences of having a child more than men though? Obviously I know women need the time off to recover from childbirth physically and emotionally but I would have thought that doing less overtime and being more job security conscious would be things that affect a new father as well.

The choice to have a child is a joint one (mostly) but as you point out and as I'm sure most would agree it is usually the mother whose career takes a hit.

I don't know if I have a point tbh, just an observation.

vafankillar

every generation of men seems to think themselves uniquely enlightened to be seeing their respective current wave of feminism as bad for society, while retrospectively seeing past-feminisms as good for society despite the fact the vast majority of men during those waves were as equally in opposition to it. so much of what would have been deemed ridiculous in the past is now taken for granted common decency.


I don't think modern feminism is right about everything, infact every wave has been wrong on certain topics, sometimes there is overkill or the pendulum does swing too far while trying to balance out or address societal issues. take for examples 2nd wave feminisms role in promoting prohibition in america in response to the toxic affect alcohol had on the family & domestic abuse.


but yeah I think despite some misguided or even bad faith actions of some, on the whole modern feminism is good for society and a lot of the people opposed to it today will probably have sons or grandsons arguing on mars about how earth feminism was good but modern mars feminism is crazy and full of triggered sjw mars-lings or whatever.

nerd69

FunLover18 wrote: »

Why is it that women should suffer the professional consequences of having a child more than men though? Obviously I know women need the time off to recover from childbirth physically and emotionally but I would have thought that doing less overtime and being more job security conscious would be things that affect a new father as well.

The choice to have a child is a joint one (mostly) but as you point out and as I'm sure most would agree it is usually the mother whose career takes a hit.

I don't know if I have a point tbh, just an observation.

It's just a prioritisation stay at home dad's are rare but not unheard of. If you have 3 kids and take essentially 3 years of sabbatical during your career then it's going to affect your career. Should it in an ideal world? Probably not but from an employers perspective why would you promote someone that in the above case may have 3 years less experience than a peer

anewme

Wibbs wrote: »

Robust debate around currently Accepted Truths? Or do you think we got it right this time? I hate to break it to you, but every culture in history, no matter how considered, or daft, or outright venomous thought the same.

But hey, let's appeal to daddy authority when one can't debate, or want an echo chamber of broad agreement on whatever politic and philosophy you adhere to and certainly we can't be having dissent from the script.

That's an all too common trend in the last decade, and it goes for all politics and philosophies of all stripes; right, left, shake it all about, whatever you're having yourself. It's a big reason for the decline in general arenas on the interwebs and beyond where different viewpoints may be read. God forbid. *triggered* People are usually far more happy to have their preconceived notions supported than encounter difficult questions around same. It runs the appalling risk of changing one's mind and we can't be having that. No sirree.

Sorry, but it's as clear as day in this thread,. Let's talk about boobs, burn the bras, casual sexism, throw in a bit of transphobia for good measure.

Robust discussion is fine, but you are not seeing robust discussion...its all one sided whinging and generalisations.

Blue haired nose ring lesbians....yet I notice that no one spoke out about that gross generalisation.

Women have recently expressed concerns about the standard of discussions on boards and their fear of posting. The moderators have a duty of care to uphold the basic qualitative standards of boards.ie and calibration of same across all forums. Demeaning women to boobs or burning bras is the type of casual sexism that should be called out and actioned. Robust discussion, great, casual sexism, not acceptable.

This is evident on this thread, the demeaning of women to boobs, bras and then of course trans people, sure they have no say whatsoever.

There is an echo chamber alright, but it's all one way. If people are afraid to or avoid posting due to being rounded on, that's all you have. If that's what you want. Its s question bigger than this thread.

kildare lad

FunLover18 wrote: »

Why is it that women should suffer the professional consequences of having a child more than men though? Obviously I know women need the time off to recover from childbirth physically and emotionally but I would have thought that doing less overtime and being more job security conscious would be things that affect a new father as well.

The choice to have a child is a joint one (mostly) but as you point out and as I'm sure most would agree it is usually the mother whose career takes a hit.

I don't know if I have a point tbh, just an observation.

Do you have kids ?

Wibbs

growleaves wrote: »

Instead we just get leftist poison.

It's not just "leftist poison" G, not even close IMHO. This divisiveness and endless runs to victimhood and labels and fear and sensitivity and fear of and sensitivity around debate is lately endemic across western society, no matter what politic you care to consider.

For me it's deeply indicative of a wider malaise borne on the back of a creeping western internal insecurity about itself. Any society that is "triggered" by certain subjects and politics and philosophies and clings to Accepted Truths is afraid to ask questions, which means answers never come.

FunLover18

kildare lad wrote: »

I just quoted the posters comment about why more men do higher paying jobs in companies and women end up as secretaries etc I was just trying to enlighten the poster from my own experience around people who've top positions in companies , it comes with lots of sacrifices be it , lack of social and family life etc

So top positions come with sacrifice, I'm still not sure what your point is or how it relates to feminism.

Mad_maxx

true-or-false wrote: »

Yeah, again, that's not what the gender pay gap is. Equal pay for equal work is a different thing.

the latter is portrayed as the former by feminists

jam_mac_jam

FunLover18 wrote: »

Why is it that women should suffer the professional consequences of having a child more than men though? Obviously I know women need the time off to recover from childbirth physically and emotionally but I would have thought that doing less overtime and being more job security conscious would be things that affect a new father as well.

The choice to have a child is a joint one (mostly) but as you point out and as I'm sure most would agree it is usually the mother whose career takes a hit.

I don't know if I have a point tbh, just an observation.

Oh I agree with you. Some of it is society and expectations that it will be the woman. Some of it is men not take their share of work. Some of it is society. But some of it is choice. And biology.

I give less of a **** about overrime and my career because I wanted to see my child. I am sure there are men like that as well. But I would be fairly sure it would be more common with women. Not all women not all men. Just in general.

Vestiapx

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Well one generation. It's her daughter not her granddaughter.

The change from the old civil service poiicy pre 1973 to the daughter being an Electronic Engineer is one generation but the change from 1973 to where we are today is two.

I would argue that in one generation there was still a lot of issues. I trained as an electronic engineer in the Dit in the early 90s and birth control was prescription only and hard to get back then. Far more boys that girls were attending third level and out of a class of three figures only two were female.

The generation of women attending college today or entering the workplace today face none of the issues your sister would have had or the absoly barriers your mother had.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

nerd69

FunLover18 wrote: »

So top positions come with sacrifice, I'm still not sure what your point is or how it relates to feminism.

I feel like you understand the context completely to be honest.men are more likely to prioritize work hence the reason there tend to be more ceos which was a conversation occurring when this poster posted

Wibbs

anewme wrote: »

Sorry, but it's as clear as day in this thread,. Let's talk about boobs, burn the bras, casual sexism, throw in a bit of transphobia for good measure.

Or you could view some of that as After Hours banter. Depends on one's viewpoint.

Robust discussion is fine, but you are not seeing robust discussion...its all one sided whinging and generalisations.

Blue haired nose ring lesbians....yet I notice that no one spoke out about that gross generalisation.

Then why don't you engage in robust discussion? The floor is yours, just like it is for "boobs" guy.

Women have recently expressed concerns about the stsndard of discussions on boards and their fear of posting. The moderators have a duty of care to uphold the basic qualitative standards of boards.ie and calibration of same across all forums. Demeaning women to boobs or burning bras is the type of casual sexism that should be called out and actioned.

This is evident on this thread, the demeaning of women to boobs, bras and then of course trans people, sure they have no say whatsoever.

There is an echo chamber alright, but it's all one way.

Again, the floor is yours. Why don't you engage in debate with the non "boobs, bras and Trans" posts? Or is it far easier to call an "ism" and feel vindicated? It seems it is. You certainly didn't engage with the actual points I raised in the post you quoted.

Mad_maxx

anewme wrote: »

This thread has it all..sexism, misogyny, transphobia...in fact, it is a case in point of what needs to be tackled by Boards Management.

virtue signallers too

MadameHussein

johnmck wrote: »

I think it really has led women to believe they can have it all. The career, the sex in the city lifestyle, the Instagram beach photos with the tatoed surfer due in Bali, while spending 8 years finding herself upskilling to become a yoga teacher. Waiting for Clooney while posting photos on Tinder of Machu Pichu and that infamous swing, after too many weekends to remember riding the cock-carousel and then suddenly coming to an abrupt realisation around 35 /36, oh tiktok tik tok those eggs are almost all gone...

Where can I find this cock-carousel? Asking for a friend.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the latter is portrayed as the former by feminists

I support feminism. So you're saying that I portray the opposite of what you've just quoted me as saying?


And before anyone pounces, no, being in favour of feminism doesn't mean I support everything any feminist has ever said, so don't bother asking me to justify random quotes from feminists.

shtpEdthePlum

The fact that there seems to be absolutely feckall mods/admins on boards who are female, except the lovely Catmaniac and a handful of others, speaks volumes. It's meant to be a boys club. I just take solace in the fact that with every passing day, women are closer to leveling the playing-field, and one day chauvinist dumps will be few and far between. That's why the dying gasps seen in these kinds of places are so frantic.

anewme

kildare lad wrote: »

I just quoted the posters comment about why more men do higher paying jobs in companies and women end up as secretaries etc I was just trying to enlighten the poster from my own experience around people who've top positions in companies , it comes with lots of sacrifices be it , lack of social and family life etc

Women 'end up' as Secretaries sums up in one sentence what your opinion is of women.

Have you been watching too many mad men box sets?

I'm not sure what your definition is of 'top companies', but I'd be interested to find out.

JoChervil

Silentcorner wrote: »

It's a movement rooted in dishonesty, this wave that is, whatever wave we are on now!

And it's everywhere today, work, media, education.

It's a movement driven by emotion, not reason.

It's a movement devoid of accountability for the dishonesty.

It's a movement devoid of logical consistency.

It is a simple persons movement really, you don't have to think too hard about it or question it too deeply, just a nice twitter handle and a cheap and easy way to feel good about oneself.

So do you feel good about yourself now?

Mad_maxx

true-or-false wrote: »

I support feminism. So you're saying that I portray the opposite of what you've just quoted me as saying?


And before anyone pounces, no, being in favour of feminism doesn't mean I support everything any feminist has ever said, so don't bother asking me to justify random quotes from feminists.

feminists portray the wage - income gap as being the same thing as the " gender pay gap "

its deliberately dishonest and misleading

there is also an ethnic or nationality pay gap , the average american working in ireland earns a lot more than than average romanian or Nigerian yet an american cardiac surgeon working in the Mater hospital will not be paid anymore by the HSE than a Nigerian cardiac surgeon working in the Mater hospital for the HSE

The " gender pay gap " thing only requires being taken seriously if you are someone who believes that everyone should be paid the exact same regardless of hours worked , level of qualification or market demand , not surprisingly most of this kind of activism is rooted in marxism

Vestiapx

true-or-false wrote: »

I support feminism. So you're saying that I portray the opposite of what you've just quoted me as saying?


And before anyone pounces, no, being in favour of feminism doesn't mean I support everything any feminist has ever said, so don't bother asking me to justify random quotes from feminists.

That's a good point tho, people are becoming so polarised that of a person identifys as a feminist or supports feminism that can be seen as supporting all feminists and feminism. It's similar to blaming black people for violent crime or travellers for petty theft. It's unfair and it's not a black persons responsibility to justify or explain the actions of all black people.

So the question I would ask is where are the moderate feminists that subscribe to my liberal socially inclusive politics but who in general don't have any truck with some of the more outlandish or extreme and more active on social media so more visual feminists that I personally find distasteful.

Vestiapx

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

The fact that there seems to be absolutely feckall mods/admins on boards who are female, except the lovely Catmaniac and a handful of others, speaks volumes. It's meant to be a boys club. I just take solace in the fact that with every passing day, women are closer to leveling the playing-field, and one day chauvinist dumps will be few and far between. That's why the dying gasps seen in these kinds of places are so frantic.

Do you believe in freedom of speech?

kildare lad

FunLover18 wrote: »

So top positions come with sacrifice, I'm still not sure what your point is or how it relates to feminism.

Because it's feminists that keep spouting on about there's less female ceos etc. It doesn't come with sacrifice , it comes with a lot of sacrifice . If you are willing to see f all of your kids growing up go for it. Or better still start your own company and work 70 to 80 hours a week getting it going and have no life except work . I think men and women are built differently. Women are more compassionate and caring which are two traits that don't get you to the top of the business world unfortunately.

Yurt2

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

The fact that there seems to be absolutely feckall mods/admins on boards who are female, except the lovely Catmaniac and a handful of others, speaks volumes. It's meant to be a boys club. I just take solace in the fact that with every passing day, women are closer to leveling the playing-field, and one day chauvinist dumps will be few and far between. That's why the dying gasps seen in these kinds of places are so frantic.

I'm not aware of the gender breakdown of mods on boards, but if it is overwhelmingly male, isn't that a point of interest and instructive in and of itself?

There's no grand conspiracy shutting females out of modding roles, in fact I'd wager they'd be glad to have women stepping up?

It's the very same in politics. The commentary is about women not being present in the upper echelons of politics.

This is my observance and I'll get pilloried for it, but it's what I've found. Go to any cumman or party branch meeting in Ireland. From the left to the right the story is the same. The dog-catchers are males, out canvassing it's typically males outnumbering women 4 or 5 to 1. Turning up week after week it's the same. Women aren't being shut out, they're not turning up for kick-off! Don't ask me for an explanation why that is. But I know that nobody is going to turn up at females' door to parachute them into being the Minister of Justice / Foreign Affairs for the heck of it. The funny thing is, women are statistically more likely to be elected than men in local and general elections when they do run - there's just less of them in the system. Which in a circular line of reasoning that is typical, is apparently the patriarchy.

shtpEdthePlum

Vestiapx wrote: »

Do you believe in freedom of speech?

I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. I'm just saying it has organically-imbued obsolescence.